Harry Maguire involved in incident with police in Greece - conviction nullified by appeal, full retrial pending

[Rightnr]

Everywhere is a party destination if you look for it.

Maguire was evidently at a fine dining establishment that sold expensive bottles of vintage wine. It wasn't a Wetherspoons or an Ibiza nightclub. He was doing anything but partying.

Rashford and Williams reportedly went to the same island.

It's more the fact it's a destination with people flying from all over the world...

One example that's always stuck with me as a massive Federer fan is the fact he stopped skiing when he was at the peak of his career to avoid injury. This for a Swiss is no laughing matter.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Coincidentally, I know a little about Greece and its culture as my brother was married to a Greek and lived their for over 10 years. I’ve been there a zillion times and experienced a lot of the Greeks and their culture.
I’m not denying that in general the Greeks have, let’s say, liberal values with regards to back handers and such. (But then again, you could say the same about Belgium for example.) Tax evasion was even a national sport in Greece. However, where does it say that their juridical system is a sham or that their police force is corrupt? Corruption can take on many forms, in some countries their governments award massive contracts to to their ‘mates’ to supply PPE...

The first link rates key areas of Greece's political and administrative systems.

Justice system rated as highly corrupt. Police services only moderately but most Greeks seem to view them as quite corrupt.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

The weird thing about the narrative on Greece's corruption is that.. if it were corrupt, wouldn't the bribe have been taken and this whole thing just gone away? The biggest leverage you have as a corrupt player is to have the story disappear.

Now that it's a suspended sentence, the incentives here are completely different and the sums don't get larger or more guaranteed.

I just want to note that for all Keane's fire and temper, we didn't get anything at this scale. This is not good.

Think the problem for the Greeks now is due to this, more and more stories are coming out about other holidaymakers being either injected or unjustly arrested that could do a lot of harm to their tourist industry that they rely on heavily. Also like big cities these islands are prime targets for gangsters running drugs etc.

 

[Dante]

It's more the fact it's a destination with people flying from all over the world...

One example that's always stuck with me as a massive Federer fan is the fact he stopped skiing when he was at the peak of his career to avoid injury. This for a Swiss is no laughing matter.

Stopping skiing was a condition of his insurance.

Visiting Greece should not be deemed a hazardous activity by the club.

 

[sammsky1]

What happens in the CE stays in the CE, mate.

 

[Dve]

For me, I was demonstrating that Maguire looked drunk in the first clip. There are longer versions of that clip on twitter if you seek it out.

The second clip is hard to make a conclusion from.

I think we may have a different definition of being drunk then... hehe.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

If you click on the first link and expand the categories below you will see that they consider the Judiciary system to be at High risk for corruption, while Police is at Moderately High (the two highest ratings they have).

To be fair, the police are actually on the lower end of the categories with ratings. Judiciary, public services and tax administration are all rated highly corrupt, customs and land administration rated as moderately high and police rated as moderately corrupt, with the caveat that more than half of Greec's citizens think that the cops are quite corrupt. The actual rating is probably mitigated by recent control mechanisms established by the government and crackdowns on police corruption.

 

[sp_107]

If he was as bolloxed as we all think he was how in hell did the Greek cops understand him,

Do you know who I am? I am the captain of Manchester United, then the cop started beating him

 

[Fluctuation0161]

I think we may have a different definition of being drunk then... hehe.

He was on his way. But not yet as drunk as I was in first year Uni, for example.

 

[Dante]

The weird thing about the narrative on Greece's corruption is that.. if it were corrupt, wouldn't the bribe have been taken and this whole thing just gone away? The biggest leverage you have as a corrupt player is to have the story disappear.

Now that it's a suspended sentence, the incentives here are completely different and the sums don't get larger or more guaranteed.

I just want to note that for all Keane's fire and temper, we didn't get anything at this scale. This is not good.

Corrupt and venal are not the same thing. There's obviously an overlap between the two, but they're different things.

If the reports are true of the police saying "your career is over", that points to a more petty and vindictive motive by the arresting officers.

The outcome of corruption doesn't always have to be a profit. Sometimes it can be as simple as a feeling of power and control.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

What is going on? So many different news. Is he going to be back playing for us?
Or does he need to be in court or stay in Greece?

 

[Amarsdd]

The weird thing about the narrative on Greece's corruption is that.. if it were corrupt, wouldn't the bribe have been taken and this whole thing just gone away? The biggest leverage you have as a corrupt player is to have the story disappear.

Now that it's a suspended sentence, the incentives here are completely different and the sums don't get larger or more guaranteed.

I just want to note that for all Keane's fire and temper, we didn't get anything at this scale. This is not good.

The following is from the BBC article:

One policeman alleged that while at the police station, Maguire said: "Do you know who I am? I am the captain of Manchester United. I am very rich. I can give you money. I can pay you. Please let us go."

His colleague added that Maguire had said to him: "Please, let me go. I am very rich. I can pay. I am the leader of Manchester United."

So the involved police say Maguire said the above, but the defendants have denied it. So people are believing what they want to believe really.

 

[Lash]

Regardless of how guilty or not. Is it just me that finds it very strange that the local government manages to muster a court and come to a verdict within 3 working days? This happened between thursday and friday, today is tuesday. Anyone from greece want to say if this is normal?

Not only that, he was arrested and charged within that week too. Very suspect for me, especially as they let him leave the country.

 

[Dante]

What is going on? So many different news. Is he going to be back playing for us?
Or does he need to be in court or stay in Greece?

He'll play for United against Palace on the 19th barring injury. It's only the England games that he's going to miss.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Guess he can rule out any big money moves to Panathanikos then.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

He'll play for United against Palace on the 19th barring injury. It's only the England games that he's going to miss.

Alright then it is rather a good news that he is not playing for England. We will see if Ole does something against him. I suspect not.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

The weird thing about the narrative on Greece's corruption is that.. if it were corrupt, wouldn't the bribe have been taken and this whole thing just gone away? The biggest leverage you have as a corrupt player is to have the story disappear.

Now that it's a suspended sentence, the incentives here are completely different and the sums don't get larger or more guaranteed.

I just want to note that for all Keane's fire and temper, we didn't get anything at this scale. This is not good.

Or maybe you are angry that you didn't get offered a bribe from someone that your friends in organized crime had recognized and told you would be a good target for a shakedown. So you say that they tried to bribe you instead, knowing that, across western justice systems, the word of police carries more weight in court than that of lay people, especially foreigners. It was supposed to be easy money but feck that English cnut for not taking the bait so let him have some legal trouble and bad press.

Both views are conjecture of course. One may be more plausible than the other and we make our own interpretations based on what we know and questions arising from the gaps in information.

 

[Falcow]

Has anybody noticed the similarity between Harry Maguire and Nana Mouskouri?

How could the defence not have seen this. The police approached Harry believing it to be the famous Greek singer, when they said 'alright gorgeous, 'ow about a photo' Maguire sensed he was in danger Will Robinson style and reacted as any normal bloke would.

The police should apologise immediately to Harry but especially Nana.

 

[sammsky1]

What was the point in selecting him and then dropping him from the squad?

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Southgate said this before selecting him

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So by dropping him, he is basically calling Maguire a liar. I wonder if he will ever play for England again

I’ve spoken to Harry and have the insight that’s very different to what’s been reported — if the facts or information changes I’ll have to review that decision."

What does this mean? Doesn't make any sense.

 

[Rams]

The first link rates key areas of Greece's political and administrative systems.

Justice system rated as highly corrupt. Police services only moderately but most Greeks seem to view them as quite corrupt.

OK let me nuance this. Maguire was tried by a criminal court. Where does it mention that the Greek criminal juridical system is corrupt???? Where????? I again emphasize that corruption takes on many forms. I’ve heard lots of stories about corruption in Greece, can’t recall one about their criminal courts.
This is still deflecting from the real issue at hand and that is the atrocious behavior of 100,000’s of pissed up Brits abroad, especially the English.

 

[Gasolin]

If she was drugged surely she should tested to prove it?

The drug doesn't stay forever, if you don't go to the hospital right away, I don't think they can prove it. And almost by magic, when the van went to the police station instead of the hospital... This is too good.

 

[Flexdegea]

Why would I cringe? I didn't get hyperbolic calling Greece a third world country because a player from the Club I support was convicted in a Court of Law. I guess not being 10 does that.

'In a court of law'


Aye defo due process there

 

[Oly Francis]

Corrupt and venal are not the same thing. There's obviously an overlap between the two, but they're different things.

If the reports are true of the police saying "your career is over", that points to a more petty and vindictive motive by the arresting officers.

The outcome of corruption doesn't always have to be a profit. Sometimes it can be as simple as a feeling of power and control.

That's not what corruption means. He has a point, prosecuting a high profile case against a football players who can afford top law firms is like the worst thing you can do if you want to get away with corruption.

 

[Gasolin]

The weird thing about the narrative on Greece's corruption is that.. if it were corrupt, wouldn't the bribe have been taken and this whole thing just gone away? The biggest leverage you have as a corrupt player is to have the story disappear.

Now that it's a suspended sentence, the incentives here are completely different and the sums don't get larger or more guaranteed.

I just want to note that for all Keane's fire and temper, we didn't get anything at this scale. This is not good.

That's because you see the corruption as only being financial. A person of authority making your life hell because you didn't do what they wanted you to do (pay up, apologize, whatever) is also corruption. In a nasty way, and probably in line with abuse of power.

 

[pratyush_utd]

Apparently video evidence was not allowed. Is that normal? Feels like cover up. Decision was given in 2 days. That's insanely fast

 

[noodlehair]

The weird thing about the narrative on Greece's corruption is that.. if it were corrupt, wouldn't the bribe have been taken and this whole thing just gone away? The biggest leverage you have as a corrupt player is to have the story disappear.

Now that it's a suspended sentence, the incentives here are completely different and the sums don't get larger or more guaranteed.

I just want to note that for all Keane's fire and temper, we didn't get anything at this scale. This is not good.

If it comes down to corruption in that sense I would think it'd be more likely that he didn't cough up the bribe money, than he offered it and it was refused...which is a claim made only by the evidence given by the police where they also claim Harry Maguire would actually say "I am the leader of Manchester United".

Have to say I don't think he's covered himself in glory, but the transcript from the court hearing is a clear farse. Any judge in this country or half respectable court of law would not allow evidence to be given 2 hours after the defence has been handed details of the charges, and any court here would throw out the case based on the "evidence" given by the prosecution, which amounts to a few witness statements that don't make any sense or follow any logic, and directly contradict statements given by multiple defendants, and ignore CCTV evidence which for some reason was omitted by the prosecution.

This is generally why chargess for anything too serious to be dealt with by a magistrate don't tend to end up in court less than a week after the incident. So there's time to actually get facts in order and gather fair evidence. Things that are fast tracked tend to be where guilt is pre determined. Drink driving, etc.

This is at best incompetence and at worst blatant corruption of the system. It's simply impossible to tell from the evidence given what even actually happened, never mind who is guilty of what.

I mean before today I had no sympathy for Maguire at all but after hearing the version of events he is supposedly accused of I do feel sorry for him a bit as that's just blatantly not what happened. The transcript of what Maguire supposedly said literally reads like a Greek person trying to make up something an English speaking person would say.

 

[Dante]

Or maybe you are angry that you didn't get offered a bribe from someone that your friends in organized crime had recognized and told you would be a good target for a shakedown. So you say that they tried to bribe you instead, knowing that, across western justice systems, the word of police carries more weight in court than that of lay people, especially foreigners. It was supposed to be easy money but feck that English cnut for not taking the bait so let him have some legal trouble and bad press.

Both views are conjecture of course. One may be more plausible than the other and we make our own interpretations based on what we know and questions arising from the gaps in information.

That conjecture about the widespread corruption is also literally backed by 99% of Greeks.

96% of Greek citizens believe that this bribery is an acceptable practice and 93% believe that it is the easiest way of obtaining public services.

Spoiler

Today, Greece experiences some of the highest levels of police corruption in Europe, with 99% of its citizens believing that corruption in the country is widespread.[91]

Transparency International surveys show that Greece ranks high among European Union nations in terms of perceptions of corruption. From 2013 to 2016, during the height of the Greece's debt crisis, the annual Transparency International reports showed that Greeks ranked second-most corrupt among EU countries, behind only Bulgaria.[92][93] (the country's relative position among European countries was more favorable before and after this period).

Bribing police officers is common in Greece. Citizens may offer the police monetary sums as a way of avoiding getting a ticket or in order to obtain a drivers license. 96% of Greek citizens believe that this is an acceptable practice and 93% believe that it is the easiest way of obtaining public services.[94][95] The Hellenic Police Internal Affairs Unit has investigated cases of corruption among police, including police acceptance of bribes from traffickers.[96] Human trafficking has become a more prominent issue in the realm of police bribery in recent times. Particularly as the state is an optimum destination for those seeking asylum, due to its many small islands and borders being difficult to patrol. It is not unusual for Greek police to provide fake documentation and plane tickets to illegal immigrants. A trafficker's circuit was discovered in the Santorini police department as recently as June 2015.[97] It was reported that airline employees contacted the local police, concerned about passengers who may be travelling to European countries using forged documents. However, the police performed only rudimentary checks, and permitted the migrants to board the flights.[97] According to the US Department of State 2014 Trafficking in Persons Report, police also recently dismantled a sex trafficking ring involving two police officers, who were then suspended from duty.[96]

Greece is a member of the European Partners Against Corruption (EPAC). It is housed in Greece within the Hellenic Police Internal Affairs division, established in 1999 and has 120 staff.[98] The National Strategic Reference Framework has also put forth €340,000 to fund "transparency and anti-corruption for good governance in public administration-police" seminars.[99] The program will be made available to graduates of the Police Officers Academy of Greece. However, only 14% of Greeks believe that the government's efforts to combat corruption are effective.[91] Furthermore, unlike other member states, the amount of corruption in Greece has increased rather than decreased, with its global ranking falling from 80th in 2011 to 94th in 2012.[100] This is likely because of the states financial difficulties. Data collected by the Greek anti-corruption task-force in 2012 showed that corruption in the state had spiked, with 1,060 cases investigated – a 33% increase on 2011.[101] Moreover, 710 (or 66.9%) of these were concerned with police officers.[101]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_corruption#Greece

 

[noodlehair]

Apparently video evidence was not allowed. Is that normal? Feels like cover up. Decision was given in 2 days. That's insanely fast

No in any fiar court the defence would be allowed to submit evidence even if the prosecution chose to omit it, and there would also be serious questions why the prosecution would choose to omit what would be the primary piece of evidence.

When the only other evidence is eyewitness testimony it would probably be enough on its own to throw the case out.

 

[elnorte]

Make your own mind up.

indykaila News (@indykaila) Tweeted:
Here's the video of Harry Maguire in Greece https://t.co/pUQmh8NuSx

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Not having a go at you but am I basically right in saying that it's impossible to tell from the second clip who is involved in the fracas?

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

OK let me nuance this. Maguire was tried by a criminal court. Where does it mention that the Greek criminal juridical system is corrupt???? Where????? I again emphasize that corruption takes on many forms. I’ve heard lots of stories about corruption in Greece, can’t recall one about their criminal courts.
This is still deflecting from the real issue at hand and that is the atrocious behavior of 100,000’s of pissed up Brits abroad, especially the English.

1. Click on the link :https://www.ganintegrity.com/portal/country-profiles/greece/
2. Go to the section that says "Judicial System"
3. Read section.
4. Form opinion

I'll even reproduce it for you here to make it easier:

Rating: Red - high risk of corruption

Companies contend with high corruption risks when dealing with Greece’s judiciary. Businesses indicate that irregular payments and bribes are fairly frequently exchanged for favorable judicial decisions (GCR 2015-2016). Over a third of companies perceive the independence of courts as fairly or very bad (JS 2017). Companies also report very low satisfaction with the efficiency of the legal framework pertaining to settling disputes and challenging regulations (GCR 2017-2018). Roughly two out of five Greeks perceive corruption to be widespread in the judiciary (Eurobarometer 2017). Judicial processes are highly time-consuming and ineffective in, for instance, enforcing property and contractual rights (ICS 2017). Companies report that Greek courts do not consistently deliver unbiased judgments (ICS 2017). The institution is described as inefficient, slow and vulnerable to corruption and political influence (HRR 2017). The Council of Europe’s anti-corruption group has called for clearer standards of professional conduct and integrity for judges and prosecutors (GRECO 2018).
Enforcing contracts is nearly three times more time-consuming on average compared to other OECD countries (DB 2018).
The judicial system ensures arbitration proceedings for investment and trade disputes and commercial laws accord with international norms (ICS 2017). Greece is a member of the International Center for the Settlement of Investment Disputes and complies with the New York Convention of 1958 on the Recognition and Enforcement of Foreign Arbitral Awards.

While this references corporate dealings specifically it does not fully rule out the criminal justice system. References are to the judiciary as a whole.

 

[Dante]

OK let me nuance this. Maguire was tried by a criminal court. Where does it mention that the Greek criminal juridical system is corrupt???? Where????? I again emphasize that corruption takes on many forms. I’ve heard lots of stories about corruption in Greece, can’t recall one about their criminal courts.
This is still deflecting from the real issue at hand and that is the atrocious behavior of 100,000’s of pissed up Brits abroad, especially the English.

No.

The real issue is the actions of Maguire himself and nobody else. Not the stereotyping of a group of people in order to assume the guilt of one of them.

 

[Stretender]

Apparently video evidence was not allowed. Is that normal? Feels like cover up. Decision was given in 2 days. That's insanely fast

Maguire is innocent. He was set up. I would hire Sheikh Mansour's lawyers and smash these dodgy policemen in any European court. No video evidence, no independent witnesses, just your word against mine. That ain't justice. The only thing Maguire is guilty of is that he used some cheap lawyers. Like I said get top lawyers who defended Manchester City against UEFA. The greek Police case has 100 holes in it and am not even a Lawyer.

 

[UweBein]

Has Harry Maguire joined the Fight Club? Maybe this was part of the initiation rite. Ah, we'll never know, cause you know the first rule of the fight club.....

 

[Gandalf Greyhame]

Be interesting to see what United and the manager do here. Whilst elements of this do look like a sham, I cannot help but think Maguire’s exercised bad judgement along the way. The defence is a really odd one to take it not a completely honest reflection of events.

Difficult to see how he can remain club captain with this hanging over him. Gardening leave mighe be an option pending an appeal, but otherwise he may need to be stripped off the captaincy on principle. That’s not to say that he couldn’t be considered again in the future.

Feels quite similar to the Ben Stokes incident, where the player might be morally in the right on balance, but has still brought the game and his club into disrepute.

One thing a lot in this thread are ignoring is that the job of a professional athlete is not just to play sport. You also need to attract sponsorship and be commercially appealing. Being found guilty of a crime has a massive impact on the latter in the short term.

Some sanity, and I agree.

He might not be morally wrong, but if the verdict doesn't get overturned on appeal, removing his captaincy should be a PR formality.

He shouldn't have gotten himself into that situation in the first place, though. Hope it doesn't affect his performances because we need him to be at his best next season.

 

[lsd]

The drug doesn't stay forever, if you don't go to the hospital right away, I don't think they can prove it. And almost by magic, when the van went to the police station instead of the hospital... This is too good.

Was she in the van ? I'm just saying if she thought she was drugged then wouldn't someone have taken her to a hospital ?

 

[Rams]

If it comes down to corruption in that sense I would think it'd be more likely that he didn't cough up the bribe money, than he offered it and it was refused...which is a claim made only by the evidence given by the police where they also claim Harry Maguire would actually say "I am the leader of Manchester United".

Have to say I don't think he's covered himself in glory, but the transcript from the court hearing is a clear farse. Any judge in this country or half respectable court of law would not allow evidence to be given 2 hours after the defence has been handed details of the charges, and any court here would throw out the case based on the "evidence" given by the prosecution, which amounts to a few witness statements that don't make any sense or follow any logic, and directly contradict statements given by multiple defendants, and ignore CCTV evidence which for some reason was omitted by the prosecution.

This is generally why chargess for anything too serious to be dealt with by a magistrate don't tend to end up in court less than a week after the incident. So there's time to actually get facts in order and gather fair evidence. Things that are fast tracked tend to be where guilt is pre determined. Drink driving, etc.

This is at best incompetence and at worst blatant corruption of the system. It's simply impossible to tell from the evidence given what even actually happened, never mind who is guilty of what.

I mean before today I had no sympathy for Maguire at all but after hearing the version of events he is supposedly accused of I do feel sorry for him a bit as that's just blatantly not what happened. The transcript of what Maguire supposedly said literally reads like a Greek person trying to make up something an English speaking person would say.

As I mentioned before they’ve had to introduce quick fire prosecutions for misdemeanors in the Netherlands in order to be able process the ridiculous amount of cases of Brits getting in trouble in Amsterdam. Maybe they’ve done the same in Greece?

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Was she in the van ? I'm just saying if she thought she was drugged then wouldn't someone have taken her to a hospital ?

Story goes the lads asked the driver to take them to the hospital but the cops told the driver to take them to the police station instead, which he did.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

As I mentioned before they’ve had to introduce quick fire prosecutions for misdemeanors in the Netherlands in order to be able process the ridiculous amount of cases of Brits getting in trouble in Amsterdam. Maybe they’ve done the same in Greece?

It's possible but seems odd to implement at this time, unless they did it prior to the pandemic. Maybe they're using this case to make an example to people as well due to Maguire's profile.

Still, there are some sketchy elements to the story that need explaining.

 

[Oly Francis]

As I mentioned before they’ve had to introduce quick fire prosecutions for misdemeanors in the Netherlands in order to be able process the ridiculous amount of cases of Brits getting in trouble in Amsterdam. Maybe they’ve done the same in Greece?

There's a lot of countries that implemented summary trials/accelerated proceedings in their criminal justice system, it's far from being uncommon.

 

[Gasolin]

Was she in the van ? I'm just saying if she thought she was drugged then wouldn't someone have taken her to a hospital ?

They called their van, and asked to be driven to the hospital, but instead were driven to the police station. Are you implying Maguire would call a van but let his sister, who just got stabbed by something and fainted, go separately? I mean sure... I do wonder where the sister was, and if the Maguire camp can prove the presence of ketamine in the blood. I hope everyone who's had a dodgy moment in Greece and specifically Mykonos comes out and puts pressure on Greece authorities to ask why the van didn't go to the hospital first.