If Mourinho's authority and ideology were given more backing, would we be challenging?

[Siorac]

This has been covered umpteen times in the pages before.

He acted out in his last season because he’s was the only person in the club with a winners mentality.

I absolve him of that. In fact I’m glad he did so. He was right about everything.

How it gone since he left?

So you're okay with someone deliberately sabotaging Manchester United's season?

And then have the gall to tell me you are not a Mourinho fanboy but you support Manchester United and want what is best for the club? I am speechless.

You are a fanboy. Just admit it. It will be easier.

 

[matt10000]

Why are you even asking this question? You think I'm here to defend Ole or something? Ole should go and he's incompetent. Figures, that you have to dodge evidence against Mourinho and instead attack the crappier manager to make Mourinho's work look better than it actually was.

Sorry, but that doesn't work here.


The table simply reflects how United, the team did. What is up for discussion is who was most responsible for it. And I'm sorry, but it doesn't look good for Mourinho when it's clear United finishing 2nd as opposed to 5th was due to de Gea. Literally, all Mourinho fan boys do is simply say "But 2nd!" Mourinho was mediocre who never challenged for the title and the one season where he got second by the slimmest of margins, it was due to de Gea.

The whole point of you guys citing 2nd is to prove Mourinho was some kind of genius who deserved more time. I'm telling you he did not deserve more time because his 2nd place "achievement" was not a case of his tactical brilliance, but instead of individual brilliance. If it was tactical brilliance why did United concede the most chances out of all the top 6 sides? Why does expected goals say that United should have conceded a lot more goals as opposed to being the 2nd best defense? If it was Mourinho's brilliance he would have cut off those chances due to his tactics. Take out de Gea for another brilliant keeper and United likely don't get 2nd place because de Gea was unreal that season. It's not like United were set out to score either and the defense just couldn't handle it btw. United created the least amount of chances in the top 6.

If it was Mourinho's brilliance, he wouldn't have wanted another defender because conceding so few goals would be down to his work.

I forget though, is conceding so few goals a lie now? Isn't that what the table says? Hmmm. Wonder why Mourinho thought he needed a better defense and wasn't happy with his group. Hmmm. Maybe because he realized that de Gea carried him to 2nd.

Achievement my arse. Meanwhile Klopp having spent the same amount of money, have gotten Liverpool to seriously compete for 2 CL titles, and compete for a PL title. You can clearly see the imprint Klopp had on his side from the very first week at Liverpool midseason of 2015/2016. So even if we remove the major title challenges, Klopp comes out on top in this very low bar, which I have been universally applying for all of our failed managers. They can't even get the basics right for me to believe in them. Forget the titles. They can't clear that small hurdle.

The words blind, deluded, one eyed spring to mind.

I am not a Mourinho fan or ‘fanboy’. I am not strongly for or against mourinho but you cant just claim that final league position over an entire season has nothing to do with the manager with any credibility.

You may as well say that all SAF titles were not down to SAF but down to the brilliance of Cantona, Rooney, Ronaldo, You could pick any season, pick the player on unreal form, take away the points in matches where they saved the day with individual brilliance and then claim without their brilliance for we would have been 4th and SAF should take no credit.

I agree and disagree with many arguments on here but respect the point of view but this idea that if one player is on brilliant form then any success has nothing to do with the manager is complete and utter none sense.

 

[matt10000]

So you're okay with someone deliberately sabotaging Manchester United's season?

And then have the gall to tell me you are not a Mourinho fanboy but you support Manchester United and want what is best for the club? I am speechless.

You are a fanboy. Just admit it. It will be easier.

I am not happy with Mourinho sabotaging that season. I blame the person who wrote his contract as anyone with half a brain could work out the most likely outcome if you end up in a situation where an employee wants to leave, if you give them two options:
1. Hand in notice and get sweet fa
2. Get sacked and get £24million

What option do you think most people would choose?

It ain’t rocket science!

 

[Withnail]

So you're okay with someone deliberately sabotaging Manchester United's season?

And then have the gall to tell me you are not a Mourinho fanboy but you support Manchester United and want what is best for the club? I am speechless.

You are a fanboy. Just admit it. It will be easier.

Be careful he might post a picture with some words on it at you

 

[Siorac]

I am not happy with Mourinho sabotaging that season. I blame the person who wrote his contract as anyone with half a brain could work out the most likely outcome if you end up in a situation where an employee wants to leave, if you give them two options:
1. Hand in notice and get sweet fa
2. Get sacked and get £24million

What option do you think most people would choose?

It ain’t rocket science!

Well, it was directed at sammsky anyway but OK.

And honestly, a mega-rich multimillionaire - which Mourinho certainly is - acting that way just for the sake of another payout is still incredibly cnutish. And yet another reason why we shouldn't want him back or regret his sacking. The man is an asshole. He can achieve some short-term success, using his tactical acumen and ability to create a siege mentality, a them vs us thing but his methods are certainly not sustainable as we saw at every single club he ever managed.

Blaming Woodward for giving him that contract absolves Mourinho once again, as if he were a child, or some helpless animal driven by instinct. 'Sure, he deliberately sabotaged the job he had signed up to do but he just can't help it, that's what he is' - and while that is indeed what he is, it still should not absolve him of responsibility for it.

We're well rid of him. And yes, we as a club made a number of poor decisions since his departure but that doesn't mean we would have been better off with him. It's a fallacy to believe that just because things didn't get better it was a mistake to get rid of him. The mistake was rushing to appoint Ole on the basis of a few good results, some early promise - and I got as carried away as many others -, not doing anything to revise the club structure, decision-making, recruitment. Those were mistakes. Giving Mourinho a contract extension in 2018 was a mistake. Getting rid of him wasn't.

 

[In Rainbows]

The words blind, deluded, one eyed spring to mind.

I am not a Mourinho fan or ‘fanboy’. I am not strongly for or against mourinho but you cant just claim that final league position over an entire season has nothing to do with the manager with any credibility.

You may as well say that all SAF titles were not down to SAF but down to the brilliance of Cantona, Rooney, Ronaldo, You could pick any season, pick the player on unreal form, take away the points in matches where they saved the day with individual brilliance and then claim without their brilliance for we would have been 4th and SAF should take no credit.

I agree and disagree with many arguments on here but respect the point of view but this idea that if one player is on brilliant form then any success has nothing to do with the manager is complete and utter none sense.

Yes I can say that, when the discussion is framed around whether or not Mourinho's vision or plan was worth further investing in it. Don't lose sight of what we're ultimately discussing.

I'm not all that results oriented right now. It's the same reason why I liked Klopp's work despite finishing 6 pts behind United that season. Anybody paying attention beyond the table could see that Klopp was more likely to succeed than Mourinho. Klopp actually had Liverpool resembling his best Dortmund sides. United could not even muster effective counter attacks under Mourinho, which was a Mourinho staple for his successful sides. If you just look at the table, you'll end up falling for a charlatan. Were you really that surprised by what happened to United last season compared to Liverpool? Maybe if you looked at the table you would be, but beyond that, all the signs were there that United would struggle. I'm not really a big Poch fan (doesn't move the needle enough for me), but he was a stark contrast to Mourinhos crap 2018/19 season. Spent nothing, and were 13 pts above United at the time of his sacking. Fair enough, you can't compete with City's money, but if you can't even compete with someone who spent nothing, you were rightly sacked and it's completely obvious that he imploded givin his history of being a short term manager, with a poisonous personality, and crap football on display.

That's the point of my assertion that his 2nd place finish wasn't some achievement. That's not the end goal for United. The goal is to ultimately build a successful side that can challenge for titles. If the table contradicts all the peripherals, maybe you should think critically and wonder why that is. To build a successful side, it's clear that results aren't the end all be all.

 

[sammsky1]

So you're okay with someone deliberately sabotaging Manchester United's season?

And then have the gall to tell me you are not a Mourinho fanboy but you support Manchester United and want what is best for the club? I am speechless.

You are a fanboy. Just admit it. It will be easier.

Woodward sabotaged our season, not Mourinho.

You should admit that you’re a Woodward shrill

 

[Siorac]

Woodward sabotaged our season, not Mourinho.

You should admit that you’re a Woodward shrill

Remind me, how did Spurs' season go after they hadn't spent a single penny last summer? I don't recall Pochettino throwing a strop and bringing the team down with him.

Mourinho sabotaged our season. The best defence you can honestly offer is that he did it because of Woodward. But the decision to throw his toys out of the pram was his. He decided to field weird starting XIs to make a point (Herrera at CB, anyone?).

(oh and the word you're looking for is "shill").

 

[TrustInOle]

Remind me, how did Spurs' season go after they hadn't spent a single penny last summer? I don't recall Pochettino throwing a strop and bringing the team down with him.

Mourinho sabotaged our season. The best defence you can honestly offer is that he did it because of Woodward. But the decision to throw his toys out of the pram was his. He decided to field weird starting XIs to make a point (Herrera at CB, anyone?).

(oh and the word you're looking for is "shill").

Woodward gave Jose a contract extension months before denying him his transfer targets. Players were bought to the club without his knowledge or backing (pogba)
He also hired Mourinho after knowing his on camera tantrums and the like.

Forgetting Jose for a minute, he sacked a coach who won the FA Cup whilst letting media find out first. He puts out statements trying to bribe the fans trust with promises of DOF, improvements in recruitment and club structure. He has no football experience or knowledge that should be imperative to judging footballing matters, yet he seems to think he knows best.

So yes, Mourinho has his faults, but we all now see that he was right in terms of what he was working with, the standard wasnt good enough, especially Defence. And for the record, spurs had a better squad aswell as paying of their stadium, so its hardly fair comparison.

 

[Ish]

It's hard for me now to watch Ole get d*cked even harder by Ed, only to keep his mouth shut like a good lil boy. Guess his job is more important to him than what's actually good for United. I prefer the guy that put it all on the line out of principle than the yes man who will soon be sacrificed

If he was so principled, why didn’t he just resign and walk away, the moment he felt he wasn’t backed (as most of you guys claim)? Instead he derailed the season, sabotaged the club by “apparently” not performing the job he was contracted and paid to do, to the best of his abilities.

How is that principled or professional? Instead he waited until our season was a write off and he got a massive payout. That is anything, but principled. It’s childish, self serving & unprofessional.

I’m not even sure why the owners and EW are brought in to constantly defend Mourinho on here. Because it’s actually possible to think that they both deserved to get fecked off.

 

[sammsky1]

Remind me, how did Spurs' season go after they hadn't spent a single penny last summer? I don't recall Pochettino throwing a strop and bringing the team down with him.

Mourinho sabotaged our season. The best defence you can honestly offer is that he did it because of Woodward. But the decision to throw his toys out of the pram was his. He decided to field weird starting XIs to make a point (Herrera at CB, anyone?).

(oh and the word you're looking for is "shill").

Thanks for typo observation. Shill is indeed the term I meant. Glad you don't deny.

Pochettino isn't a winner, he doesn't have this mentality deep in his genes, therefore such is tolerable to him. It's why we should never ever hire him, until he man's up and wins something.

Winners find such circumstances intolerable, especially when they were promised such just a few months before. Thats the situation Mourinho found himself in. Working for a boss who was incompetent and a liar.

I applaud Mourinho for taking such a stance. Unfortunately for the club, he lost that game of politics to Woodward. Look where we are now. If that rocks your boat, that's on you.

 

[Ish]

I am not happy with Mourinho sabotaging that season. I blame the person who wrote his contract as anyone with half a brain could work out the most likely outcome if you end up in a situation where an employee wants to leave, if you give them two options:
1. Hand in notice and get sweet fa
2. Get sacked and get £24million

What option do you think most people would choose?

It ain’t rocket science!

Agreed with that, but then don’t use Mourinho sabotaging the season like some sort of beacon of principles and morality and “in the best interest of the club for standing up to EW” etc. He was a cnut for doing that. And rightly as you said, it’s the option a lot of people would choose. But it wasn’t done in anyway in the clubs interest.

Not meaning or having a go at you btw. I’ve just seen it mentioned on here a couple of times.

 

[TrustInOle]

Thanks for typo observation. Shill is indeed the term I meant. Glad you don't deny.

Pochettino isn't a winner, he doesn't have this mentality deep in his genes, therefore such is tolerable to him. It's why we should never ever hire him, until he man's up and wins something.

Winners find such circumstances intolerable, especially when they were promised such just a few months before.

I applaud Mourinho for taking such a stance. Unfortunately for the club, he lost that game of politics to Woodward. Look where we are now. If that rocks your boat, that's on you.

Also worth noting, 12 months prior, EW had £100m to spend on Varane or the right defender in his words, as Maguire wasnt a big improvement on what we had...........12 momths later.......

 

[Fosu-Mens]

Thanks for typo observation. Shill is indeed the term I meant. Glad you don't deny.

Pochettino isn't a winner, he doesn't have this mentality deep in his genes, therefore such is tolerable to him. It's why we should never ever hire him, until he man's up and wins something.

Winners find such circumstances intolerable, especially when they were promised such just a few months before. Thats the situation Mourinho found himself in. Working for a boss who was incompetent and a liar.

I applaud Mourinho for taking such a stance. Unfortunately for the club, he lost that game of politics to Woodward. Look where we are now. If that rocks your boat, that's on you.

Poch is not winning because his team is still unable to find a good way to break down a balanced defense after x years with creative and technical players available. Off the ball and in the build up play they are really good and Pochettino is among the best coaches in the world in these areas. It is only when the team comes into the final third that his lackings as a coach/manager is clear and one can see the big difference between him and Guardiola.

 

[Siorac]

Thanks for typo observation. Shill is indeed the term I meant. Glad you don't deny.

Pochettino isn't a winner, he doesn't have this mentality deep in his genes, therefore such is tolerable to him. It's why we should never ever hire him, until he man's up and wins something.

Winners find such circumstances intolerable, especially when they were promised such just a few months before. Thats the situation Mourinho found himself in. Working for a boss who was incompetent and a liar.

I applaud Mourinho for taking such a stance. Unfortunately for the club, he lost that game of politics to Woodward. Look where we are now. If that rocks your boat, that's on you.

Why didn't he just resign then?

Really, I find it amazing that you go to such lengths to defend a man who's really a mere footnote in the history of Manchester United. He finished second once, wooo. So did Brendan Rodgers with Liverpool. Yet I don't think they made a huge mistake with sacking him.

Honestly, I don't get this huge loyalty to Mourinho. He's not a club legend. He's not someone who contributed massively to United. He never, at any single club, spent more than three seasons. Why are you still clinging to the idea that if we had only kept him and catered to all his whims, everything would have been great? None of the available evidence about the man supports that assertion. Your devotion to him would be understandable if you were a Chelsea, Porto or even an Inter fan. Are you? Or do you just really really really love him for some weird reason?

'Look where we are now' is not an argument. By that logic there was no reason to fire Moyes. After all, look what a shite job Van Gaal did.

 

[sammsky1]

Why didn't he just resign then?

Really, I find it amazing that you go to such lengths to defend a man who's really a mere footnote in the history of Manchester United. He finished second once, wooo. So did Brendan Rodgers with Liverpool. Yet I don't think they made a huge mistake with sacking him.

Honestly, I don't get this huge loyalty to Mourinho. He's not a club legend. He's not someone who contributed massively to United. He never, at any single club, spent more than three seasons. Why are you still clinging to the idea that if we had only kept him and catered to all his whims, everything would have been great? None of the available evidence about the man supports that assertion. Your devotion to him would be understandable if you were a Chelsea, Porto or even an Inter fan. Are you? Or do you just really really really love him for some weird reason?

'Look where we are now' is not an argument. By that logic there was no reason to fire Moyes. After all, look what a shite job Van Gaal did.

Given what I've seen so far, I will never ever side with Woodward over any manager.

In his first two seasons, Mourinho won 2 cups and came 2nd to the most expensive team in PL history. That's a great return given what he started out with. Had Mourinho been properly backed, I think he could have won in his third season, just like he has done everywhere else he has been. There is plenty of evidence which suggests this to be true. Sadly we'll never know. Brendan Rodgers doesn't have a proven track record of winning at every club he's been at, hence why Liverpool fans have no reason to look back with regret.

Mourinho didn't resign because the club had just awarded him a new contract. He reasonably thought that promises made during that negotiation would be honoured. In his position I wouldn't resign either, when my boss had lied to me and would not provide me the tools to deliver what I had signed up for. I'd make my employer suffer. It's perfectly acceptable for me when that employer is Woodward. Everything Mourinho exposed in those final months has proven to be true. Had he not performed that expose, we'd still have fans arguing otherwise.

I don't have any 'devotion' for Mourinho. It's simply a recognition that post SAF, Mourinho has been the only person employed by the club capable of winning big trophies. He was on that trajectory. Sadly for me and Mourinho, he was the only winner amongst a gang of frauds and was chased out of town for being so.

'Look where we are now' is what happens when you replace a man of Mourinho's calibre with somebody like Solskjaer.

 

[TrustInOle]

Given what I've seen so far, I will never ever side with Woodward over any manager.

In his first two seasons, Mourinho won 2 cups and came 2nd to the most expensive team in PL history. That's a great return given what he started out with. Had Mourinho been properly backed, I think he could have won in his third season, just like he has done everywhere else he has been. There is plenty of evidence which suggests this to be true. Sadly we'll never know. Brendan Rodgers doesn't have a proven track record of winning at every club he's been at, hence why Liverpool fans have no reason to look back with regret.

Mourinho didn't resign because the club had just awarded him a new contract. He thought he'd have promised made during that negotiation honoured. In his position I wouldn't resign either, when my boss had lied to me and would not provide me the tools to deliver what I had signed up for. I'd make my employer suffer. It's perfectly acceptable for me when that employer is Woodward. Everything Mourinho exposed in those final months has proven to be true. Had he not performed that expose, we'd still have fans arguing otherwise.

I don't have any 'devotion' for Mourinho. It's simply a recognition that post SAF, Mourinho has been the only person employed by the club capable of winning big trophies. He was on that trajectory. Sadly for me and Mourinho, he was the only winner amongst a gang of frauds and was chased out of town for being so.

'Look where we are now' is what happens when you replace a man of Mourinho's calibre with somebody like Solskjaer.

Bang on the head! Couldnt have said it better myself. I think its less to do with the Mourinho episode, and more to do with every other episode (except commercial) which Woodward has massively let the club down due to his decision making.

Plus, Mourinho aint here and we are having even more problems. Truth is in the pudding.

 

[In Rainbows]

In his first two seasons, Mourinho won 2 cups and came 2nd to the most expensive team in PL history. That's a great return given what he started out with. Had Mourinho been properly backed, I think he could have won in his third season, just like he has done everywhere else he has been.

There's just no way man. It's not like he kept up a decent performance in year 3 like Poch before he imploded last season. For example, how does bringing in Maguire bridge the gap with Liverpool of last season? Give him an extra Willian like he wanted and how does that get us competing with Liverpool when Chelsea fans were berating Sarri for continuing to play him over CHO. That would be another 70mil and it still wouldn't bridge the gap.

I don't have any 'devotion' for Mourinho. It's simply a recognition that post SAF, Mourinho has been the only person employed by the club capable of winning big trophies. He was on that trajectory. Sadly for me and Mourinho, he was the only winner amongst a gang of frauds and was chased out of town for being so.
.

That's false. He won no major trophy. The major trophies are PL and CL. FA cup is the next on the list in terms of our happiness. Would rather win that, than the Europa. LVG achieved that btw.

 

[Siorac]

Given what I've seen so far, I will never ever side with Woodward over any manager.

In his first two seasons, Mourinho won 2 cups and came 2nd to the most expensive team in PL history. That's a great return given what he started out with. Had Mourinho been properly backed, I think he could have won in his third season, just like he has done everywhere else he has been. There is plenty of evidence which suggests this to be true. Sadly we'll never know. Brendan Rodgers doesn't have a proven track record of winning at every club he's been at, hence why Liverpool fans have no reason to look back with regret.

Mourinho didn't resign because the club had just awarded him a new contract. He thought he'd have promised made during that negotiation honoured. In his position I wouldn't resign either, when my boss had lied to me and would not provide me the tools to deliver what I had signed up for. I'd make my employer suffer. It's perfectly acceptable for me when that employer is Woodward. Everything Mourinho exposed in those final months has proven to be true. Had he not performed that expose, we'd still have fans arguing otherwise.

I don't have any 'devotion' for Mourinho. It's simply a recognition that post SAF, Mourinho has been the only person employed by the club capable of winning big trophies. He was on that trajectory. Sadly for me and Mourinho, he was the only winner amongst a gang of frauds and was chased out of town for being so.

'Look where we are now' is what happens when you replace a man of Mourinho's calibre with somebody like Solskjaer.

But all this hinges on a very simplistic worldview: that it's Mourinho vs Woodward, that there is one single person to blame for the problems of the club. Us vs them, black vs white, good vs evil.

That's not how it works. It's perfectly possible that Woodward is incompetent while Mourinho is an odious, short-termist cnut who always implodes after 2-3 years at a club.

He was already getting unhinged in early 2018, something you conveniently ignore every time you wax lyrical about Mourinho being on the right trajectory. His risible Sevilla rant was a couple of months after a contract extension, a couple of months after getting Alexis Sánchez to replace one of his other flops, after two summer windows in which he spent more than anyone bar Manchester City. He disparaged the club in public, he was falling out with his players, we finished the season in absolutely appalling form - but apparently he was 'on the right track'.

As for not blaming him for deliberately sabotaging the next season - well, that's your prerogative. I won't ever understand why José Mourinho is more important to you than Manchester United but hey, I never understood Cal?'s deep, burning passion for Ronaldo either - though actually, that one makes a bit more sense, considering Ronaldo actually did great things for United.

 

[Siorac]

Plus, Mourinho aint here and we are having even more problems. Truth is in the pudding.

That doesn't mean we wouldn't have problems if Mourinho was still here. Again, because it seems the José cult seems to miss this basic point: it's possible that at the same time Woodward is incompetent AND Mourinho did a shite job here.

 

[In Rainbows]

He was already getting unhinged in early 2018, something you conveniently ignore every time you wax lyrical about Mourinho being on the right trajectory. His risible Sevilla rant was a couple of months after a contract extension, a couple of months after getting Alexis Sánchez to replace one of his other flops, after two summer windows in which he spent more than anyone bar Manchester City. He disparaged the club in public, he was falling out with his players, we finished the season in absolutely appalling form - but apparently he was 'on the right track'.
.

Yep. Matic was already crap and there goes part of the good parts of that 2017/18 season. Fred wasn't really a factor. de Gea wasn't in as good of form last season compared to 2017/18. He still would have his dispute with Pogba even though Pogba was one of his best players last season.

It's weird that now year 3 is the year he was going to win it all when Mourinho cultists like to cushion the non-title challenge 2nd place finish with "nobody was reaching 100 pt City", yet Liverpool got 97 pts along with City on 98 pts. I always thought Mourinho peaked in his 2nd season? Now it's his 3rd season? Now his 81 pt 2nd place finish is amazing when 86 pt 2016/17 Spurs exist, 84 pt 2013/14 Liverpool exist, and 82 pt 2013/14 Arsenal exist. So even in that context, his 2nd place finish isn't as impressive.

 

[Dec9003]

That doesn't mean we wouldn't have problems if Mourinho was still here. Again, because it seems the José cult seems to miss this basic point: it's possible that at the same time Woodward is incompetent AND Mourinho did a shite job here.

True, but it's also possible that if Jose had been given the backing he thought he deserved he would have continued to be successful at United.
We'll never really know what would have happened had Jose got his players in that third season, but to say it was more woodwards fault than Joses is a perfectly valid point.

 

[gza the genius]

If Mourinho got his way we'd probably be in the champions league this season but still with no trophies. We'd also have shifted out any youth we had in the side and needed a complete rebuild again in another transfer window or two. He was building for right now and not caring about the future at all. And even then, what he wanted to do wouldn't have made us better than City or Liverpool.

 

[sammsky1]

But all this hinges on a very simplistic worldview: that it's Mourinho vs Woodward, that there is one single person to blame for the problems of the club. Us vs them, black vs white, good vs evil.

That's not how it works. It's perfectly possible that Woodward is incompetent while Mourinho is an odious, short-termist cnut who always implodes after 2-3 years at a club.

He was already getting unhinged in early 2018, something you conveniently ignore every time you wax lyrical about Mourinho being on the right trajectory. His risible Sevilla rant was a couple of months after a contract extension, a couple of months after getting Alexis Sánchez to replace one of his other flops, after two summer windows in which he spent more than anyone bar Manchester City. He disparaged the club in public, he was falling out with his players, we finished the season in absolutely appalling form - but apparently he was 'on the right track'.

As for not blaming him for deliberately sabotaging the next season - well, that's your prerogative. I won't ever understand why José Mourinho is more important to you than Manchester United but hey, I never understood Cal?'s deep, burning passion for Ronaldo either - though actually, that one makes a bit more sense, considering Ronaldo actually did great things for United.

yadda yadda yadda. I've covered every point you've raised, so what do you keep bringing up the same?

You have no facts to back up your opinion. It's all straw man and false equivalence, which suggests you either just hate Mourinho or are a Woodward shill. Thats your prerogative. And also fine.

But until you produce some facts that prove your hyperbole, it will simply remain as your opinion.

 

[roonster09]

Shame we sacked the Jose. Just needed Boateng, Perisic, Willian, had we spent close to 100 million signing 3 players, catching City/Liverpool who are scoring 95+ points wouldn't have been problem.

 

[MackRobinson]

yadda yadda yadda. I've covered every point you've raised, so what do you keep bringing up the same?

You have no facts to back up your opinion. It's all straw man and false equivalence, which suggests you either just hate Mourinho or are a Woodward shill. Thats your prerogative. And also fine.

But until you produce some facts that prove your hyperbole, it will simply remain as your opinion.

Doesn't matter if he did. You would just ignore them and run away.

 

[In Rainbows]

yadda yadda yadda. I've covered every point you've raised, so what do you keep bringing up the same?

You have no facts to back up your opinion. It's all straw man and false equivalence, which suggests you either just hate Mourinho or are a Woodward shill. Thats your prerogative. And also fine.

But until you produce some facts that prove your hyperbole, it will simply remain as your opinion.

Mourinho cultists at work: Call facts out as being opinions

Fact #1. He was already getting unhinged in 2018. Already fell out with Pogba which led to his Pogba world cup comments.
Fact #2. He spent more than anyone bar City in his 2nd season.

Opinion #1. He would win in his 3rd season if he had gotten Maguire and Willian.

I have to side with Siorac. Provided 2 facts backed with evidence, and Sammsky provided a fantasy world in which Fred is useful, Matic turns back father time, doesn't have a feud with the performing Pogba, Willian somehow turns back to being useful, and Liverpool don't get 97 pts with City not getting 98 pts, allowing United to win the PL.

 

[roonster09]

Mourinho cultists at work: Call facts out as being opinions

Fact #1. He was already getting unhinged in 2018. Already fell out with Pogba which led to his Pogba world cup comments.
Fact #2. He spent more than anyone bar City in his 2nd season.

Opinion #1. He would win in his 3rd season if he had gotten Maguire and Willian to compliment useless Fred, Dalot, and Grant.

I have to side with Siorac.

IIRC Jose never won league in his third season. Always had a meltdown and got sacked in 3rd season or after 3rd season.

 

[Siorac]

yadda yadda yadda. I've covered every point you've raised, so what do you keep bringing up the same?

You have no facts to back up your opinion. It's all straw man and false equivalence, which suggests you either just hate Mourinho or are a Woodward shill. Thats your prerogative. And also fine.

But until you produce some facts that prove your hyperbole, it will simply remain as your opinion.

Fact: Mourinho had spent more than any manager except Pep Guardiola in his first two summers at Manchester United.
Fact: Mourinho said at the start of 2017/18 that the squad is equipped for fighting for the title.
Fact: Despite this, Mourinho was already bemoaning squad quality by the middle of his second season, shitting on the club after a highly disappointing Champions League defeat in which he left our best outfield player on the bench.
Fact: Mourinho's most successful season, at every single club he ever managed, was either his first or second. His third season, was always the worst, without exception.
Fact: When Klopp caught up to Mourinho's spending, he actually put up a real challenge to Manchester City and won the Champions League. All this despite starting off with an inferior squad compared to Mourinho's.
Fact: Most of the signings made during Mourinho's tenure didn't work out for one reason or another. Bailly is an unreliable, rash sicknote; Mkhitaryan turned out to be simply not good enough; Matic had a couple of good months and then the same steady decline that had been already apparent at Chelsea; Lukaku started well but remained incredibly streaky and inconsistent, his poor technique restricted him, and he was used as a target man despite being blatantly unsuitable; Sánchez didn't contribute anything; Fred barely looks like a footballer; the jury is very much out on both Dalot and Lindelöf.

Conclusion: the level of resources Mourinho was afforded were sufficient for better performance, as Klopp's example shows. His third season was unlikely to be better than the previous two, as his entire managerial career as well as his transfer record shows; the level of spending - again, as much as title-challenging, CL-winning Liverpool - certainly doesn't explain the absolutely disastrous form of the first half of 2018/19.

Of course you can claim that the transfer record is Woodward's fault but that's just speculation I'm afraid, not one of those "facts" you seem to love so much. So even if we just completely disregard transfers, the rest of the facts really look bad for Mourinho.

 

[Siorac]

True, but it's also possible that if Jose had been given the backing he thought he deserved he would have continued to be successful at United.
We'll never really know what would have happened had Jose got his players in that third season, but to say it was more woodwards fault than Joses is a perfectly valid point.

It's possible but unlikely, given his managerial career. Look at Chelsea 06/07. Won the title the previous two seasons and signed Cole, Ballack and Shevchenko. He still lost out to United in the league and to Liverpool in the Champions League.

Again, he was already complaining in 17/18 despite spending huge amounts of money and raising the wage bill considerably. And our football and form in the second part of that season was mostly atrocious.

 

[sammsky1]

Fact: Mourinho had spent more than any manager except Pep Guardiola in his first two summers at Manchester United.
Fact: Mourinho said at the start of 2017/18 that the squad is equipped for fighting for the title.
Fact: Despite this, Mourinho was already bemoaning squad quality by the middle of his second season, shitting on the club after a highly disappointing Champions League defeat in which he left our best outfield player on the bench.
Fact: Mourinho's most successful season, at every single club he ever managed, was either his first or second. His third season, was always the worst, without exception.
Fact: When Klopp caught up to Mourinho's spending, he actually put up a real challenge to Manchester City and won the Champions League. All this despite starting off with an inferior squad compared to Mourinho's.
Fact: Most of the signings made during Mourinho's tenure didn't work out for one reason or another. Bailly is an unreliable, rash sicknote; Mkhitaryan turned out to be simply not good enough; Matic had a couple of good months and then the same steady decline that had been already apparent at Chelsea; Lukaku started well but remained incredibly streaky and inconsistent, his poor technique restricted him, and he was used as a target man despite being blatantly unsuitable; Sánchez didn't contribute anything; Fred barely looks like a footballer; the jury is very much out on both Dalot and Lindelöf.

Conclusion: the level of resources Mourinho was afforded were sufficient for better performance, as Klopp's example shows. His third season was unlikely to be better than the previous two, as his entire managerial career as well as his transfer record shows; the level of spending - again, as much as title-challenging, CL-winning Liverpool - certainly doesn't explain the absolutely disastrous form of the first half of 2018/19.

Of course you can claim that the transfer record is Woodward's fault but that's just speculation I'm afraid, not one of those "facts" you seem to love so much. So even if we just completely disregard transfers, the rest of the facts really look bad for Mourinho.

There is unanimous agreement on this board that Woodward is the sole common denominator for all our issues. I've not seen anyone argue otherwise.

So when Woodward also happens to be your boss, lies to you and then imposes his footballing decisions upon you, I'd say that not 'speculation'.

 

[sammsky1]

Mourinho cultists at work: Call facts out as being opinions

Fact #1. He was already getting unhinged in 2018. Already fell out with Pogba which led to his Pogba world cup comments.
Fact #2. He spent more than anyone bar City in his 2nd season.

Opinion #1. He would win in his 3rd season if he had gotten Maguire and Willian.

I have to side with Siorac. Provided 2 facts backed with evidence, and Sammsky provided a fantasy world in which Fred is useful, Matic turns back father time, doesn't have a feud with the performing Pogba, Willian somehow turns back to being useful, and Liverpool don't get 97 pts with City not getting 98 pts, allowing United to win the PL.

I dont remember anyone appointing you as judge nor jury. And so respectfully, I don't really care who you side with.

 

[sammsky1]

Doesn't matter if he did. You would just ignore them and run away.

I dealt with you several pages before. Just read those if you need reminding.

 

[In Rainbows]

I dont remember anyone appointing you as judge nor jury. And so respectfully, I don't really care who you side with.

I don't think anyone has to be a jury. Those are clearly facts. You live in a fantasy world if you don't acknowledge those facts. That's reality. Nobody will agree with you btw. Even the other Mou fans won't disagree with those facts.

I don't understand how anyone can be this subjective.

 

[steffyr2]

If Mourinho got his way we'd probably be in the champions league this season but still with no trophies. We'd also have shifted out any youth we had in the side and needed a complete rebuild again in another transfer window or two. He was building for right now and not caring about the future at all. And even then, what he wanted to do wouldn't have made us better than City or Liverpool.

Yes. We'd probably be in the cl this year and next year.
He'd probably keep slthe players who were good enough to play for utd and get rid of those who weren't. Gasp!

 

[In Rainbows]

Yes. We'd probably be in the cl this year and next year.
He'd probably keep slthe players who were good enough to play for utd and get rid of those who weren't. Gasp!

Hooray. CL football watching those god awful Mourinho borefests in year 5. Clearly what we all signed up for when we signed short term manager Mourinho. And let's not rewrite history. He favored Fellaini, Young, Matic, etc... so he also wouldn't be some great deadwood assassin.

 

[el3mel]

Mourinho cultists at work: Call facts out as being opinions

Fact #1. He was already getting unhinged in 2018. Already fell out with Pogba which led to his Pogba world cup comments.
Fact #2. He spent more than anyone bar City in his 2nd season.

Opinion #1. He would win in his 3rd season if he had gotten Maguire and Willian.

I have to side with Siorac. Provided 2 facts backed with evidence, and Sammsky provided a fantasy world in which Fred is useful, Matic turns back father time, doesn't have a feud with the performing Pogba, Willian somehow turns back to being useful, and Liverpool don't get 97 pts with City not getting 98 pts, allowing United to win the PL.

He spent more than anyone bar City in his second season, thus finished ahead of everyone else bar City. What is this point supposed to even mean ?

Also his World Cup comments on Pogba were absolutely spot on and Pogba's problems are still existing till now, exactly the same with his moody and inconsistent performance. He also still wants to leave.

 

[In Rainbows]

He spent more than anyone bar City in his second season, thus finished ahead of everyone else bar City. What is this point supposed to even mean ?

Also his World Cup comments on Pogba were absolutely spot on and Pogba's problems are still existing till now, exactly the same with his moody and inconsistent performance. He also still wants to leave.

Amazing, the secret Mou cultist comes out to defend Mourinho while still claiming "I'm a Mou out guy too."

Am I supposed to give you a cookie for coming out with this useless fact as if you had a point? I'll try the same thing as you too.

Pochettino spent less than Mourinho last season, ended up 13 pts ahead of him in 2018/19. Direct correlation with your money spent = league position hypothesis. Of course you think he was right with those comments, never mind the fact that they came at a time where Pogba won the world cup and he just had to start controversy after a positive start to the summer. Meanwhile, Conte and Allegri had no problem with Pogba. We'll ignore that though. The point was that the cnut manager was already getting unhinged. That's a basic fact. You agreeing with Mou doesn't change that fact.

edit: And just to tie this all together since you didn't know why this conversation started. It was to say that the evidence did not support Mourinho not imploding in his 3rd season. He didn't act up based on the summer transfer activity. It started the prior season which Siorac pointed out.

 

[steffyr2]

I don't think anyone has to be a jury. Those are clearly facts. You live in a fantasy world if you don't acknowledge those facts. That's reality. Nobody will agree with you btw. Even the other Mou fans won't disagree with those facts.

I don't understand how anyone can be this subjective.

Your idea of a fact is that Mourinho was unhinged -- ie, insane. I think you need to check a dictionary for what the word "fact" means vs the word "opinion" vs the phrase "a whole lot of hyberbole".

 

[In Rainbows]

Your idea of a fact is that Mourinho was unhinged -- ie, insane. I think you need to check a dictionary for what the word "fact" means vs the word "opinion" vs the phrase "a whole lot of hyberbole".

Context matters. The use of hyperbole does not change the fact that Mourinho was already imploding with the players. All you're doing is shifting the argument away into some language matter.