If we finish 4th, should Ole get the job full time? [Poll added]

[glazed]

This is also what a lot of pundits are saying. Basically all he's done is told them to go and have fun and enjoy their football and that just Mou going is responsible for this.

To me that's clearly not all it is.

Truth is we just don't know why. It might have happened exactly the same if Carrick or Phelan had been put in charge. Someone with knowledge of the game and access to training needs to make a knowledgeable assessment of what's going on. Anything else is bullsh#t.

That's why we need to appoint a DoF first and then let them decide.

 

[RedIan]

If we finish 4th under Ole and then appoint, say Potch, do we call Ole back as caretaker when Potch fails? Theres no gaurentees with anyone so if Ole does the business this season, stick with him, the grass may not be greener. So far im super impressed with the way hes presented himself and got the place buzzing again - not to mention the massive improvement in out football.

 

[Anders Agnalt]

Truth is we just don't know why. It might have happened exactly the same if Carrick or Phelan had been put in charge. Someone with knowledge of the game and access to training needs to make a knowledgeable assessment of what's going on. Anything else is bullsh#t.

That's why we need to appoint a DoF first and then let them decide.

In that case we should have continued winning when Giggs took over? Ole has always managed to get the players to achieve max potential in Molde. After numerous managers who failed, why throw away the solution that seems to work?

 

[mu4c_20le]

Can't be arsed to go through 8 pages so im sure this will have been said.. but surely it's too early to decide? Lets wait until he gets tested, until we face superior opposition and how he responds to being a goal down, two goals down, or letting the opposition back in the game putting the players under pressure. I get that these are just hypothetical threads for discussion, but i feel like it also reflects the caf kneejerk attitudes of today.

 

[Dec9003]

Can't be arsed to go through 8 pages so im sure this will have been said.. but surely it's too early to decide? Lets wait until he gets tested, until we face superior opposition and how he responds to being a goal down, two goals down, or letting the opposition back in the game putting the players under pressure. I get that these are just hypothetical threads for discussion, but i feel like it also reflects the caf kneejerk attitudes of today.

The thread isn't asking you to decide right now, it's asking you based on a hypothetical scenario five months down the line.
There is also an undecided option in the poll.

 

[Rightnr]

I was tempted to say 'Yes' but I am still not sure. I think leaving it until April to make the decision is a smart move. Let's see what happens.

 

[mu4c_20le]

The thread isn't asking you to decide right now, it's asking you based on a hypothetical scenario five months down the line.
There is also an undecided option in the poll.

I was tempted to say 'Yes' but I am still not sure. I think leaving it until April to make the decision is a smart move. Let's see what happens.

Like i said, i get that this is just a discussion for when we're bored, and im not having a go at the ones who've decided, i just dont think it's realistic to be able to decide right now even hypothetically when it's all been rosy so far. April was also what i was thinking, maybe even march, im sure we will have been tested thoroughly and have a better idea of whether or not Ole can handle such a colossal job. I love the guy and would love it if he could become our Zidane, but it's been a very easy ride so far.

 

[glazed]

In that case we should have continued winning when Giggs took over?

I don't really follow your logic. You'll have to explain

 

[Random Task]

Like i said, i get that this is just a discussion for when we're bored, and im not having a go at the ones who've decided, i just dont think it's realistic to be able to decide right now even hypothetically when it's all been rosy so far. April was also what i was thinking, maybe even march, im sure we will have been tested thoroughly and have a better idea of whether or not Ole can handle such a colossal job. I love the guy and would love it if he could become our Zidane, but it's been a very easy ride so far.

Opening your managerial reign against the likes of Cardiff, Huddersfield, Bournemouth and Newcastle would be considered a dream start under normal circumstances, but you have to take into account the sheer state of the club prior to Ole's arrival before you make that judgement. Every single game we took part in under Mourinho, regardless of the opposition, was a huge uphill battle and the inconsistent results reflected that. The players were all over the shop in terms of performance both as individuals and as a collective, morale was rock bottom and the club was heading for a midtable finish.

That Ole has come in and won 4 on the bounce in such convincing fashion - scoring 14 (including our highest goal tally since Fergie retired) and conceding only 3 - whilst playing the kind of fast, attacking football the club is renowned for is quite an achievement. You can say Ole's had an easy ride thus far, but I bet there wasn't a single person, club associate or otherwise, who could have predicted the impact that Ole has had since taking over. Not one.

 

[RedNed77]

I love the enthusiasm here, it seems to me that we may have accidentally stumbled upon something beautiful. Ole with man-management and team talks, Phelan with tactics and operations such as training and development, McKenna with oppo and squad analysis & Carrick with coaching and day-to-day squad liaison bringing his recent experience as a player to bare. All with bundles of day-to-day coaching experience thrown into the frame.

Parachute in a DoF with an overarching vision, main control over delivering said vision with a view to transfers, disciplinaries and salaries etc and; we could be good to go with no need for the further upheaval of bringing in a new manager and approach.

 

[Sauldogba]

Managers of such calibre as Sir Alex, Zidane, Pep, Jose were inexperienced when they took on big jobs and were successful. It has to start somewhere.

No they werent.

 

[Sauldogba]

Can Ole attract big players? Can he improve players with his coaching? Does he get on with the DoF we choose and his chosen style? Is he prepared to upset the big egos when needed? Will they take it from him or sulk again?

What happens this season isn't that important. It's about the long term and not getting carried away.

Can Ole attract big players?

Yes because hes managing Manchester United not Swindon Town.

 

[Sauldogba]

When you have so much talent at disposal, you can either improve them or just get out of their way and let them play to their potential.

I'm not sure how many managers are out there that can improve players of that caliber, maybe Pep and Klopp.

If they aren't available the next best option might be a person who is not headstrong or a negative Nancy. I have think ole fits that, knows the club inside out and more importantly has enough cachet with fans and board members to tide him over when the rough spots come.

It's also a powerful deterrant against player power because not one player in the squad has enough clout to undermine a beloved player from with charisma and a link to the golden past.

Ole might just be our version of zidane.

Pmsl these players will shaft ole and give no fecks about doing it if they see fit too.

 

[Random Task]

Pmsl these players will shaft ole and give no fecks about doing it if they see fit too.

You know them personally then?

 

[Sauldogba]

You know them personally then?

Yes.

 

[Green_Red]

Let's see where we are after Liverpool at home

 

[AaronRedDevil]

I think if he makes top 4 (hopefully maybe a trophy) then yes I support I'm 100% as a full time manager. He came in with an almost to see as an impossible job. 11 points off top 4 with a dressing room p**sed off with Jose and the fans depressed. Now 5 games in, only 6 points off top 4, players playing with pride and hunger for goals, fans are are as happy as if SAF is managing the team. Spirits have never been this high in a long time. He knows the club, he has the right mentality to look at Man Utd and show why united were once a feared team and slowly bringing back the danger of playing us. Playing style is so simple yet so effective. What we know now, is that's Ole is doing great so far. If he hits top 4, then next season we he can take us even higher.

 

[Snow]

Why were they heavy favourites? They had 3 players in attack and the rest of their squad were average players hence why they finished 4th. At the start of the competition no one had Liverpool has CL challengers, fact. This is why Klopp's performance with them was exceptional. They finished behind us who were 19 pts off the top spot. Also I don't give much hype as to what Ole did in Norway as Steve McClaren won the dutch league and no disrespect but there are bigger achievements out there.

Sevilla, Spartak Moscow, Maribor, Porto, Roma. You'd be happy to have any of those teams in your group, never mind draw them in a semi-final.

You asked what Ole did, I answered. Klopp won his first title in his 11th season as manager and his 2nd and 3rd in his 12th and he hasn't won anything since. It's been 8 seasons since then. He's no Pep.

 

[Snow]

You'd expect Liverpool to normally be heavy favourites against Porto, but a very good Roma side who just beat Barcelona? A big part of why Liverpool were favourites is that Klopp has made them into a very, very good side.

Roma weren't very good. They had showed multiple times throughout the competition that they were scraping by and had an excellent day against a Barcelona side that didn't show up. They finished the competition on a +2 GD because of how beatable they were. The bookies had Liverpool as clear favorites as well as most people here aside from a couple of people who liked to big up Italian teams last season.

I considered them favorites because Roma were OK at defending and not very good at attacking and Liverpool's mantra last season was to score more goals than their opponents which worked quite well in the CL against the oppositions that they had. City fixture was controversial and would have been different with VAR despite the good performances by them.

 

[mu4c_20le]

@Random Task I like your optimism and hope that he is something special as well. Can't get any more romantic than this if it works out.. well unless we also bring Cantona into the mix.

 

[The Don]

Ole obviously isn't best availible. Some of the names being thrown around are big hitters with big reputations and this club should only be hiring the biggest names. However, I'm scared that whoever comes in won't have the same connection to the fans, won't get the ethos of the club, will want to stamp their own style and authority on the squad and will be under more pressure.

I love the brand of football that we have played, so far, under Ole and I love his positivity, humbleness and passion. He genuinely loves this club, the fans and the traditions. He's brave enough to allow good footballers do what they do best and he will give youth players a chance.
He will also be under less pressure than the likes of Zidane/Poch etc. as most people won't expect him to be a success.

If results and more importantly, performances were to stay the same and he had any level of success, I'd give him the job, without question.

 

[Lj82]

I'm not saying that's what he has to do, I'm saying if he did that then he should rightfully get the job no?

Of cause he should get the job if he goes unbeaten in the league for the rest of the season. That's tougher than top four though. I would give him the job as long as he makes top four. Or if in the unlikely scenario that we go unbeaten but don't make top four, he should still get the job imho

 

[midnightmare]

Ole obviously isn't best availible. Some of the names being thrown around are big hitters with big reputations and this club should only be hiring the biggest names. However, I'm scared that whoever comes in won't have the same connection to the fans, won't get the ethos of the club, will want to stamp their own style and authority on the squad and will be under more pressure.

I love the brand of football that we have played, so far, under Ole and I love his positivity, humbleness and passion. He genuinely loves this club, the fans and the traditions. He's brave enough to allow good footballers do what they do best and he will give youth players a chance.
He will also be under less pressure than the likes of Zidane/Poch etc. as most people won't expect him to be a success.

If results and more importantly, performances were to stay the same and he had any level of success, I'd give him the job, without question.

The bold part is what I disagree with. I'll elaborate:
1. "Best available" should always be about the context and the case. Here, we should be talking about the best available for Manchester United. Jose Mourinho and Louis van Gaal were the "best available" when we went for them; both were among the "biggest names" you mention too. Neither should ever have been in the frame for our job (hindsight of course; I cheered on Jose when he came in).
2. Look at Barcelona for some pointers. They (though I detest the club) have been spot-on in identifying that any incoming manager needs to "get" the club and its ethos and history. That's why Pep or Enrique or Tata got the job. And let's not pretend it didn't work out. Arguably, apart from Pep, none of their managers has been a success anywhere else. Underlines that "getting the club" is underrated by many, specially for clubs that are institutions in their own right!
3. Take Poch for "what might have been". True story now. About 3 years ago, on a football chat group of mine, I mentioned that Poch was making a case for being considered for United. I got laughed out of the room as someone who "just seems to want the shiniest toy going right now" and "doesn't understand what it takes to manage Man United". Weeks later, we opted for Jose. Look at where we are now...

And this without going into all the manners in which I feel people are unjustly underestimating and undervaluing Ole - and being condescending to him. If Ole had not had that Cardiff stint, I really feel a lot more people would be very gung-ho about him. Sadly, while people remember the results, they forget the context of the situation there when he took the job.

 

[RedCoffee]

The big managers have had their chance. Van Gaal, Mourinho have come in and tried to promote their own style and influence across the club which has torn it apart. Poor performances, pressure too much to handle, falling out with players, etc, etc. The club have made a brave decision in giving Ole a chance. The fact we have Ole, Phelan and Carrick working together to bring back the philosophy of the club should be rewarded if they succeed.
Success this season should be measured by;
1. How much he improves the mentality and hunger of the squad.
2. Whether he can retain the attacking style of football he has implemented.
3. Consistent results against teams outside the top 6.
4. Highly competitive performances against other top 6 clubs.
5. Bringing the excitement back to the heart of the fans.

The top 4 was almost out of reach when he arrived so we cant hold him to that this season. For me if he can the boxes above then give him a 2 year contract.

 

[vidic blood & sand]

The daily mirrr thinks that City could be kicked out of the Champions League next season for fiddling the FFP books, opening a place for the team finishing 5th.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/arsenal-man-utd-could-still-13814666

 

[Lentwood]

The problem is, Ole really is managing in a bubble at the moment. None of the real pressures of managing Manchester Utd are being applied

1) Ole came in when morale was at the lowest I've ever seen in 30yrs as a Utd fan. Literally ANY change in management would have lifted that dressing room

2) The players are led to believe that Ole's appointment is temporary. That means they don't really have to worry too much if they are left out and can just enjoy playing football. To that end, I imagine the atmosphere in and around the squad is very relaxed with players just getting on with enjoying football.

3) Expectations were very low when Ole came in and there's no real pressure on our games currently. They are almost as close to a 'free hit' as you will ever get in a Utd shirt. I would argue even some of our recent pre-season friendlies against Liverpool and City carried more weight than the last few games in terms of fans expectations. It would be totally different if we were in a title race or even a proper battle for top four where every point counted

4) Ole doesn't have to worry about long-term transfer targets, Academy overhauls, player's contracts etc...Ole can focus all of his attention on bonding with the squad and playing football. If Player X is unhappy with his salary or is thinking about a move, that's not Ole's problem and the player knows it which means the relationship between the two isn't affected. This BTW is another big argument for a DoF with or without Ole - because I believe it's good for the club to separate the commercial/financial/contractual from the football side

The problem of course is that we won't know if Ole can cope with the pressure and expectation of managing United 'full-time' without letting him have a shot at it. I suppose a compromise might be to say that IF Ole is able to get us into the Top 4 and IF the new DoF is comfortable working with Ole, we give him a 1-yr deal starting June 2019?

 

[Lentwood]

The daily mirrr thinks that City could be kicked out of the Champions League next season for fiddling the FFP books, opening a place for the team finishing 5th.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/arsenal-man-utd-could-still-13814666

If that happened (and it's a big IF) that would be one of the funniest things to happen in football, especially if they don't win it this year - although we all know what that might mean

Imagine the fume of the Board since winning a CL is clearly their top priority

 

[Zlatan 7]

That’s the big question though,isn’t it?The feel good factor,positivity and momentum might power us through the rest of the season...But can Ole compete with Guardiola,Klopp and Pochettino over the course of an entire season?Are his training sessions good enough to take our players to the next level?Remember,it’s not just about having good man management skills and letting the players play attacking football...

It’s about having the talent and the intelligence as a coach to improve your players and take them to another level by putting on excellent training sessions.Guardiola,Klopp,Pochettino have done it at their respective clubs,can Ole do the same here?This is the million dollar question in my view...

I see what you’re saying here about the training sessions and kind of agree but that’s not all or just the managers job is it.
Fergie brought mclaren / Rene etc to take the training and was known to stand and observe. He was the master at then putting it together and motivating that trained team.

So I would say being the permanent manager would not have too much to with being able to produce a better training session than Klopp, it would be more steering the ship, keeping the morale, choosing the right people for the right role in regards to coaching using the managers ideas of football.

At the moment Ole seems to be making all these right choices and boosting morale with ease, I do agree with you that could be harder to do over a pre season and full next season though

 

[vidic blood & sand]

If that happened (and it's a big IF) that would be one of the funniest things to happen in football, especially if they don't win it this year - although we all know what that might mean

Imagine the fume of the Board since winning a CL is clearly their top priority

I didn't realize until a few minutes ago, but there's actually a thread in the football forum talking about this.

 

[chris123]

It's an incredibly dangerous precedent to hand Ole the job. We have seen what has happened with this sort of story in the past - man-manager brought in as caretaker until the end of season to replace oppressive boss gets the players back on his side - only for him to be found out the next season.

But I also don't think we can be scared off simply because of the Di Matteo story. Ole hasn't just brought a new atmosphere to the club, he has also completely transformed our style of play. A good run in the champions league, and a top 4 finish, I don't know if you can realistically do anything but give him the job.

Then if he falls on his face next season, Poch will still be there. I think it would just send the wrong message if he didn't get the job in that scenario.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

It’s going to come down to how we are playing to me rather than him just getting 4th. There is still quite a bit of naivety in our general play and it’ll be intresting to see how this is going to go against Spurs but if we are playing well and look like we know what we are doing and can only get better then sure why not but for me depends on more than just getting 4th especially if someone like Poch is available.

 

[midnightmare]

It's an incredibly dangerous precedent to hand Ole the job. We have seen what has happened with this sort of story in the past - man-manager brought in as caretaker until the end of season to replace oppressive boss gets the players back on his side - only for him to be found out the next season.

1. Why a "dangerous precedent"? Because it means we'd show that we're willing to take a risk and appoint a forward-thinking manager even if he hasn't "won big trophies" yet? Could use the same argument against Poch about trophies of course...except he's literally won nothing at all, while Ole has two league titles
2. Which is "this sort of story"? di Matteo? He was crap in the league and won a Cup competition with a healthy dose of luck and "backs-to-the-wall" performances. Ole getting fourth would quite literally be a completely different ball-game as it's league and consistency vs a Cup run! Which other examples are there? Zidane? Pep?

I don't see this as the boss having players back on his side. It's about a completely different style, playing to the squad's strengths, being positive and then about man-management. Read a bit about what the players are saying about the style, about training, tactics etc. They're not talking about his man-management first, but about the actual tactical side of things. And really, I don't see how it would be a "dangerous precedent".

 

[MrSingh2002]

We have to judge him once he's played the top sides in the league and champions league yet.

So far it looks very promising for him to be considered the next manager but time will tell.

 

[Judas]

It’s going to come down to how we are playing to me rather than him just getting 4th. There is still quite a bit of naivety in our general play and it’ll be intresting to see how this is going to go against Spurs but if we are playing well and look like we know what we are doing and can only get better then sure why not but for me depends on more than just getting 4th especially if someone like Poch is available.

Same opinion as me to a certain extent. I'm not sure how tactically great we are, but we'll find out in the rest of the season. I'm not sure how much we're just simply relying on quality play from people like Pogba and Rashford.

 

[JMack1234]

The problem is, Ole really is managing in a bubble at the moment. None of the real pressures of managing Manchester Utd are being applied

1) Ole came in when morale was at the lowest I've ever seen in 30yrs as a Utd fan. Literally ANY change in management would have lifted that dressing room

2) The players are led to believe that Ole's appointment is temporary. That means they don't really have to worry too much if they are left out and can just enjoy playing football. To that end, I imagine the atmosphere in and around the squad is very relaxed with players just getting on with enjoying football.

3) Expectations were very low when Ole came in and there's no real pressure on our games currently. They are almost as close to a 'free hit' as you will ever get in a Utd shirt. I would argue even some of our recent pre-season friendlies against Liverpool and City carried more weight than the last few games in terms of fans expectations. It would be totally different if we were in a title race or even a proper battle for top four where every point counted

4) Ole doesn't have to worry about long-term transfer targets, Academy overhauls, player's contracts etc...Ole can focus all of his attention on bonding with the squad and playing football. If Player X is unhappy with his salary or is thinking about a move, that's not Ole's problem and the player knows it which means the relationship between the two isn't affected. This BTW is another big argument for a DoF with or without Ole - because I believe it's good for the club to separate the commercial/financial/contractual from the football side

The problem of course is that we won't know if Ole can cope with the pressure and expectation of managing United 'full-time' without letting him have a shot at it. I suppose a compromise might be to say that IF Ole is able to get us into the Top 4 and IF the new DoF is comfortable working with Ole, we give him a 1-yr deal starting June 2019?

This.

 

[red thru&thru]

If anyone follows the official Manchester United Twitter page, they do use the words Caretaker Manager a lot in their Twitter feeds. I’m sure that’s a concious tactic.

 

[FujiVice]

I dont think it can be stressed how impressive winning 5 games out of 5 over Christmas is. We've rarely ever done that, even at our best.

 

[M Bison]

I dont think it can be stressed how impressive winning 5 games out of 5 over Christmas is. We've rarely ever done that, even at our best.

It is impressive and it isn’t. Before those 5 games we would all be saying they are 5 games we should be winning, comfortably.

I think we’re getting ahead of ourselves and surely today’s poor performance should be a reminder, we were playing against relegation fodder from the league below.

Next week against Spurs is massive for Ole.

 

[Alemar]

It should be decided not only on the basis of result, but also based on quality of our performance. Result may also be achieved via some terrible drop in form at a competitor's end, whereas quality of football (and improvement of individual performance of certain players) is a cornerstone for future achievements.

 

[M Bison]

It should be decided not only on the basis of result, but also based on quality of our performance. Result may also be achieved via some terrible drop in form at a competitor's end, whereas quality of football (and improvement of individual performance of certain players) is a cornerstone for future achievements.

Playing badly and losing surely wouldn’t warrant him getting the job though