It's just a matter of time until we catch them. I can't see his signings to turn everything around. Bravo won't play like Neuer or any decent keeper, Stones won't play like Pique and Gundogan is gone until end of season. The rest of their players are very good but defensively they can't be saved unless if they can get a new reinforcement.
Is it Guardiola or is it his City squad?
- Thread starter Gandalf Greyhame
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
I hope he's given another season if they fail for top 4 this season. I really want to see if he can fix the problem, he might have learnt something from all of these bad moments and results. I do believe he's the one who caused the problem by signing poor proven and inexperienced defender like Stones, spent money on a player who never be used like Sane, signed an injury prone like Gundogan, and replaced Hart with Bravo who let him down massively. City's players apart from his signings are quality players in my opinion. De Bruyne is playing good and a world class. Aguero did score a lot of goals and still a world class, both Silva and Fernandino are still quality too player. Sterling isn't a bad player.
You've highlighted their biggest problem there.
They only have genuine quality in forward areas. Nobody really knows, but it seems that he thought he could coach his existing defensive players to play to his system.
Clichy and Sagna are very comfortable on the ball, both very good offensively and there's probably a dossier of stats to prove that. They both played under Wenger in a passing system. Yet they can't do for Pep what he wants from them.
With the full backs not circulating possession as they should the onus is on both Stones & Partner, Bravo to be perfect from the back. They haven't been. they've all been every bit as bad as each other.
Pep lays foundations of possession and game control from the back of the pitch. If that doesn't work, the team falls apart. At times this season it's came together or their forward players have shone and won games. But Premier league teams seem to have sussed out that the backline is weak and if you score first, you're in with a great shot of beating them. Nobody is parking the bus against them as you have a better chance in the first half than you do the second.
People point at their squad and rightly say that the players are very good players. I still believe they have one of the best squads in the league. But they don't have a squad that Pep can build a strong team with. That's his fault and it will be interesting to see what he does in the next year.
In all seriousness, this is a guy who left his boyhood club and city after 3-4 years of unprecedented success. Not hard to imagine him leaving the "Villarreal of England" if he didn't find it working out.
I think we're pretty much sorted in the attacking positions and it's the defence that needs looking at. Both full-back positions need replenishing as Zabaleta, Sagna, Clichy, and Kolarov are all the wrong side of 30 and coming to the end of their time with us. I love Zab and he could still play a bit part role for us but his legs have gone a fair bit. Even Clichy has served us quite well despite the amount of flak he gets these days. I wouldn't want us to buy 2 LBs and 2 RBs though - just one of each and perhaps upgrade someone from the academy as back-up for each position. We've got Pablo Maffeo (RB) and Angelino (LB) who both look useful. Maffeo had a great game in the League Cup at your gaff but for some reason both he and Angelino have been loaned out to Girona - I'd have kept Maffeo here for sure for the remainder of the season, given the issues we've had defensively. We also need a CB as we can't rely on Kompany these days sadly. Also a DM. And, erm, cough cough, perhaps we need a new goalkeeper if there's no way back for Hart.
If you buy a CB, would you sell Otamendi or Stones as both have been horrifically bad. Also, will Pep admit his own mistakes a buy a GK to replace Bravo? I very much doubt so as his ego is too big for that.
Good point. A lot of it is reactionary and the old adage that you're only as good as your last result shapes things for many people. I held off poking fun at United earlier in the season as I felt your results could only get better and I feel that Guardiola can get it right at City. We've admittedly put in some shocking defensive displays of late, particularly Leicester away in the first 20 minutes and on Sunday, but a lot of these are basic errors rather than players being confused by the system they're playing so they ought to be easy to iron out. That said, I'm not exactly confident about the Spurs game on Saturday!
I think there's already murmurs that he may replace Bravo. I can't see Stones going and I'm confident he will get better. Otamendi is a strange one - he was touted as one of the best defenders in La Liga and he's certainly turned in some good displays for us but he's also had a few shockers.
Football is a fickle old game mate. By the way, any chance we can do a straight swap? Your manager and players for our manager and players?Remarkable how this forum & the footballing word has done a complete 180 regarding City's squad in only a matter of months. The hot takes regarding the squads of Liverpool/Chelsea/Tottenham are still fresh.
Half this board didn't rate Luiz, Cahill, Moses, Alonso, Matic, Costa, Pedro & Hazard at the start of the season. Now all of a sudden they're much better than what Pep has to work with.
John Stones was better than Luiz
People scoffed at being linked with Matic
Pedro was a flop & worse than Memphis
[Irrelevant point] was a panic buy
Cahill was shit
Hazard was inconsistent & far inferior to De Bruyne
Aguero was miles better than Diego Costa
A couple of months later & those same players are much better than what City have.
I didn't realise City had already failed to qualify for next season's CL. I think you're getting ahead of yourself there a bit fella. Oh, by the way I pointed out to you the other week that we signed Tevez, Yaya, and Silva without CL football when you were peddling that same line that we won't be able to attract any players of any note if we don't finish in the top 4, and for some strange reason you went all quiet and didn't even bother furnishing me with a response
People said in the past that Guardiola needs to have the groundwork laid for him in order for his methods to become effective. At Barca it was all there already and Van Gaal laid the foundations at Bayern as well. When he came in the squads were already familiar with and comfortable with a basics of possession football, he just had to season it a bit with his own special sauce.
With that in mind, here's a hypothetical question:
If he had come to United, following Van Gaal, would we be doing
a) Better than City are now? Would the squad he would have inherited have been more receptive to his ideas?
b) Better than United are now? Given there would have been a bit more continuity, would we have avoided the whole, time consuming, unlearn Van Gaal and then learn Mourinho's methods from scratch? And so would United be likely to finish the season higher than Mourinho will manage?
With that in mind, here's a hypothetical question:
If he had come to United, following Van Gaal, would we be doing
a) Better than City are now? Would the squad he would have inherited have been more receptive to his ideas?
b) Better than United are now? Given there would have been a bit more continuity, would we have avoided the whole, time consuming, unlearn Van Gaal and then learn Mourinho's methods from scratch? And so would United be likely to finish the season higher than Mourinho will manage?
Last edited:
Otamendi needed someone calmer or a leader next to him like Kompany. Stones was a wrong buy to be played in the wrong set up. He clearly needs protection which Pep's style of play cannot give him unless he plays 2 DMs. Look at what Conte is doing with Luiz. Inspite of Luiz being a much better defender than Stones at present, he is still heavily being protected by 2 CBs and 2 CDMs.
Given all the money they've spent they find themselves in a ridiculous situation in terms of the age of their squad. That is not Peps fault in fairness, Begiristain has moulded this squad together so he should take a huge part of the blame. They had 6 players start on Sunday who are 30+ and Aguero and Otamendi are both 29 inside the next 6 months whilst Fernandinho, Navas & Kolarov are both 31 and Kompany is 31 in a few months. City have spent about £400m on players the last 3 summers and it looks like they'll have to spend another £200m to get a squad that Pep is happy with, Begiristain is very lucky to still be in a job especially considering these figures on the back of winning a title with a very good squad.
Pep can be blamed for the huge sums he spent this summer and none of them have had sort of impact at all, we'll have to wait and see what Jesus does but the reality is the media have let him off lightly given he spent £170m.
Pep can be blamed for the huge sums he spent this summer and none of them have had sort of impact at all, we'll have to wait and see what Jesus does but the reality is the media have let him off lightly given he spent £170m.
That's a very good question.
I think definitely (a). The squad was tactically ready for the same style that Pep employs. We needed some additions to the squad but Pep's name would have been enough to attract the players we needed (probably not Ibrahimovic though).
(b) is the more debatable one. We might have been better but we might not have been as well. Pep being new to the PL might be a bit of a draw-back compared to Mourinho, but the squad adapting easily to his methods would have meant less points unnecessarily dropped early season like we did. In conclusion, I just think we might have been a little bit better than we are now, but not quite sure we would be much better. I think playing Europa games on Thursdays has a terrible effect on league form. I do hope we finish either in top four this season or below EL places. I don't want Thursday Night Football anymore.
So Pep is now saying his attackers are not doing the job, hence they are leaking goals.
'The consistency of a clean sheet depends on how you create in front,' he said. 'The defence is not the reason why [we're conceding], it is a consequence.'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...ola-Manchester-City-attackers-blame-form.html
'The consistency of a clean sheet depends on how you create in front,' he said. 'The defence is not the reason why [we're conceding], it is a consequence.'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...ola-Manchester-City-attackers-blame-form.html
If we'd finished top 4 somehow along with winning the FA Cup as we did then there's a chance he'd have stayed. Very different situation to Pellegrini in that he was gone no matter what City accomplished.
We would be in a far worse position now if we'd gone for Pep over Jose.
We had 2 years of zombie football under LVG. If we had then hired Pep we would have spent £170M in the summer & still have been playing the same kind of football. We may be a rich club but we can't match City for transfers & wages. As it is i can easily see Pep spending close to £300M in the summer. The Glazers will be mightily pissed off at the amount they've had to spend since SAF left. If we fail to get CL this season i think Jose would only get 1 more big window in the summer to try & sort things out.
As it stands, Jose has been here only a short time yet we are already playing much better than at anytime under Moyes & LVG. With 3 more good signings in the summer we will be challenging for the league rather than scrambling for top 4. I would have no confidence in entrusting what may be our last big transfer budget to Pep.
It's part of his campaign to get rid of Aguero; a component of the highly-advanced, futuristic masterplan in which Pepe's City team will triumph despite having no strikers, midfielders, defenders, goalkeeper or ball.
You think we would be in a worse long term position, in terms of our outlook for success in coming years and style of football, or do you think we would be worse, as things stand today, in terms of points?
Because we have less points on the board than City. So if we would be worse off today, that suggests Guardiola would have struggled as much or more with us than he has with City. You think that is correct? It is a totally reasonable view to have, Im just interested in the question of continuity between Van Gaal and Guardiola and whether that might have been easier for him to adjust to.
It is true though. It's almost like a metaphysical law: if you don't take your chances, you'll concede eventually, somehow. Look at Chelsea for example. I wouldn't say there's much difference between them and City, in terms of chances created/conceded. But Chelsea make their chances count, like Leicester did last year, and it gives them a huge confidence boost.
FWIW I think we might be doing better right now, in the moment, because we might well have avoided the early season transition - we would have built on last season rather than dismantling it and starting again, which has taken time and cost us some points. But I dont think the club's outlook would be brighter.
The squad is not as good as people seem to think it is. Not as much now with results going the way they have been, but this season overall we're overrated.
At the same time, you have Pep slowly realising this fact.
Now, instead of changing the way he's trying to play, his ego is clouding his judgement and he's forcing 7/10 rated players to play 9/10 rated football. You can see it clear as day. The players look void of ideas and sometimes confused. Especially in defence.
Until he changes his approach, or we get to summer and he buys 'his' players in more positions, we'll continue to struggle.
At the same time, you have Pep slowly realising this fact.
Now, instead of changing the way he's trying to play, his ego is clouding his judgement and he's forcing 7/10 rated players to play 9/10 rated football. You can see it clear as day. The players look void of ideas and sometimes confused. Especially in defence.
Until he changes his approach, or we get to summer and he buys 'his' players in more positions, we'll continue to struggle.
I'd love to join in on the Pep-bashing, but not when we're 2 points behind them and they're still in the CL. If he manages to sort out that defense during this transfer-window they could easily go on a winning run and things will look very different.
Did you mean to reply to someone else? I was talking about Pellegrini's situation compared to LVG..
Yes, my mistake, I was referring to other post.
Pelligrini certainly got more from Aguerro and De Bryune. Their individual form and facial expressions under Guardiola of late are a joy to watch
Typical Pep and the reason I can't stand the bloke, always trying to prove how smart he is and how stupid everyone else is by blaming the defenders for being wank.
Pep comes across as very stubborn. Take the goalkeeper for example - deep down he knows he's messed up. A goalkeeper is there to stop the ball going in the net. You can modernise the game and invent as many new playing styles as you like but the role of the goalkeeper will never change. The fact is Joe Hart is a much better player than Bravo. Is he that bad with his feet that he can't have been coached, if Pep insists on the goalkeeper almost playing like an outfielder? I don't think he is.
His comment the other week about 'not coaching the tackles' gets more and more unbelievable with every week that passes and every shoddy goal they concede. It's not just Everton on Sunday, because they played very well, but they just don't look like keeping a cleansheet.
He needs to buy new defenders urgently before next season, but more than that he needs someone in place who can drill and coach them to defend effectively rather than just buying the best 4 defenders in the world, plonking them alongside each other and saying 'go out and play'.
His reputation has taken a hit since he came to England but it's not in ruins unless he leaves City without winning the PL or the UCL. For a club with that much ambition and financial clout, it would be criminal.
His comment the other week about 'not coaching the tackles' gets more and more unbelievable with every week that passes and every shoddy goal they concede. It's not just Everton on Sunday, because they played very well, but they just don't look like keeping a cleansheet.
He needs to buy new defenders urgently before next season, but more than that he needs someone in place who can drill and coach them to defend effectively rather than just buying the best 4 defenders in the world, plonking them alongside each other and saying 'go out and play'.
His reputation has taken a hit since he came to England but it's not in ruins unless he leaves City without winning the PL or the UCL. For a club with that much ambition and financial clout, it would be criminal.
Its the internet I suppose. An admittedly rubbish result and everyone on twitter and on sites like this are giving it the "I always said Guardiola was a fraud" nonsense when the vast majority of those people will have said nothing of the sort.
Even worse are the "I think he'll resign" comments from United fans. I'd expect him to look pissed off after Sunday and he's clearly a bloke who cares a lot about what he does. Mourinho looked like he was on the verge of a meltdown earlier in the year and making all sorts of bizarre comments.
I think some expected Pep would come in and sweep all before him, which was obviously extremely naïve. That squad has been on the downturn for the last few seasons and looks at best, horribly unbalanced. His preferred style of play seems to require totally different players to what he has and that should obviously have been addressed. If he gets the money that they're talking about - and I expect he will then it's up to him to buy the right players. That's his big test for me - because I'm not sure he's had that responsibility at clubs in the past.
He may not have what it takes and frankly, I agree that he's had it a lot easier at Barca and Bayern for obvious reasons. This will be the measure of his quality.
As for Saturday, I think Spurs could be a massacre unless he can get his players heads up during the week. Spurs look in great form at the moment.
The headline isn't exactly indicative of what he actually said. He wants his teams to defend from the front so if the strikers and midfielders aren't doing their job in closing down space, etc, then the defenders become horribly exposed if we lose the ball cheaply. Simply blaming the defence and only the defence isn't accurate - sure, they have to shoulder their fair share of the blame and the defenders have made some right cock-ups but a lot of the time we're losing the ball further upfield and it's then getting lobbed over or punted through the midfield into wide open spaces and the opposition are having a field day. Witness Chelsea's goals against us. I'll also add that our attacking players haven't been taking anywhere near enough of their chances either - if their conversion rate was higher, then we might have given ourselves more of a buffer when those little wobbles in games happen. Back to the Chelsea game, and if De Bruyne sticks that absolute sitter away we're 2-0 up and the way we were playing at that point it would've been very difficult for Chelsea to get anything from the game.
He's basically saying that it's a collective thing and all the players have to take their share of the blame.
I read the quotes and he's ignoring basic defensive errors, as always he's trying to play Mr. Smartypants.
Just not a likeable bloke this fella, have always maintained that Mancini was a much better fit for City.
That headline is misleading, I saw the post match interview.
He was simply saying that had City taken their chances first, the game would have been different. City had their chances (particularly referred to the Chelsea) to go ahead/extend their lead and that would undoubtedly have led to a different game and possibly a different result.
I do remember LVG also bemoaning the fact that despite us having all the possession and not putting away our chances, how other teams always seemed to score with their first chance.
Guess it brings it back to the point Carra has been making, the chances City allow and normally big chances.
He was simply saying that had City taken their chances first, the game would have been different. City had their chances (particularly referred to the Chelsea) to go ahead/extend their lead and that would undoubtedly have led to a different game and possibly a different result.
I do remember LVG also bemoaning the fact that despite us having all the possession and not putting away our chances, how other teams always seemed to score with their first chance.
Guess it brings it back to the point Carra has been making, the chances City allow and normally big chances.
I doubt he's ignoring them in private though mate and I'd certainly hope he wasn't ignoring them. Looks more like a deflecting tactic that managers often use to try and keep a bit of the pressure off the players that are under the microscope.
Pep is a brilliant manager. You will see him change a few things in the coming weeks and they will be back. The game against Everton was a one-off. Of course his summer signings haven't done well but they'l get better. We have a feeling Jose is doing better because we were in a hole for 3 seasons in a row. Now we are world class, yet the Liverpool game was a glitch. Pep is a strong personality and his vision for the game is completely different to that of the other managers. Although i'm happy Jose is here, he's the more passionate one!
Last edited by a moderator:
In what sense?
In the kind of dominance they portrayed over City.
While I agree, his demeanor on Sunday wasn't even one of somebody angry about the result. He looked hopeless epitomized by staring off into space almost oblivious to the match that was happening right in front of him.
He might actually be more than frustrated and disappointed by how things have worked out so far, but I think he'd have far too much pride to leave at the first sign of trouble. I don't believe there's a chance he quits or the board sacks him during or after this season no matter how it goes.
Leicester twatted them too though, so it isn't really a one off.
haha, well I probably thought it was a fair point and didn't want to massage the notion, but having said that, we are a few years on now and the City "project" has proven itself to be no more special or unique than the "PSG project" or the "Spurs project", "Liverpool project" or indeed the "Chelsea Project". Two titles after 9 years of heavy heavy investment isn't particularly special nor is the current run of form, nor the mental state of your manager.I didn't realise City had already failed to qualify for next season's CL. I think you're getting ahead of yourself there a bit fella. Oh, by the way I pointed out to you the other week that we signed Tevez, Yaya, and Silva without CL football when you were peddling that same line that we won't be able to attract any players of any note if we don't finish in the top 4, and for some strange reason you went all quiet and didn't even bother furnishing me with a response
I don't want to be too obvious in my bias, but of course, I am. But I seriously don't see City making top 4, you are narrowly narrowly ahead of us and going into a game against a rampant Spurs, its a very very real possibility that the stick you've been beating us over the head with "were still above you" is about to evaporate from under Peps feet.
If you are a player looking in from the outside you can see several things-
1. Pep is struggling and there is no doubt what-so-ever that its the case, a loss to Everton away is bad enough but the state of the loss is what should be considerably worrying, whereas we had our own chastening defeat against Chelsea, there was a feeling amongst the fans it was a one off. With Pep he seems to be on a landslide down, The Spurs loss earlier in the season, The embarrassing Liecester result, the loss to Liverpool, The loss to Chelsea, these are completely unacceptable results for someone with such a high pedigree.
Hes lost it, and if I was a player looking in I would be thinking about several other projects that can pay me just as much and seem to be on the right track- and yes that does include United.
2. He hasn't improved a single player at Man City and has arguably destroyed the confidence of Stones, Otamendi, Kompany and Aguero all whom are under-performing and almost clueless on the pitch.
3. His refusal to adapt, his needing of constant reminders of the refereeing policies and physicality of the premier league is baffling, fro someone so detail orientated and seemingly the next massiah in the PL he hasnt done his research and if he has, he thinks he can change the way football is here which in itself is arrogant and laughable and looks to be his biggest downfall this season.
4. No one is sitting still waiting for him to get his act together, he will be left by the wayside unless he pulls his finger out and accepts he will have to win ugly and the best best teams that have ever been champions (including City) have always managed to win or pick up points the ugly way, he seemingly wont accept that and ultimately will be his downfall.
Nothing I have said is controversial, nothing is completely wrong and Im sorry its just like LVGs United, boring passive football with little to no end product the difference is LVG managed some results against the top boys.
There's no two ways of looking at it City are in freefall whilst we are fighting our way up. City fans should be furious and demanding answers rather than blindly following this beautiful idea that with another quarter of a billion spent youll magically start playing like Barcelona AND maybe, just maybe, that style of play simply will never work in the Premier League without the cream of the crop playing for you. Which weather you like it or not you cant simply throw cash at without CL as its not just you who can do it.
Sorry about the essay.
Squad isn't very good.
Bravo- Shit
Sagna- Old
Clichy- Meh
Kompany- Injured
Stones-
Otamendi- Shit
Toure- Lazy
Gundogan- Cripple
Fernando- Meh
Fernandihno- Good
Silva- On the wane
Aguero- Injured
De Brunye- Quality
Sterling- Shit
Navas- Meh
Sane- Who?
The guy has gone from working with 2 of the greatest teams we've seen in the modern era to this. How could he possibly have been expected to win the League with a squad like that? His transfers have been awful though, but generally that's always been the case wherever he's been. However I said it ages ago, Messi was the real reason for that Barca's teams success, Pep was a beneficiary of having him, Xavi and Iniesta. Not to take away all credit from Pep but it was nigh on impossible to beat a team with those 3 in it. At Bayern Pep was a complete and utter failure.
Bravo- Shit
Sagna- Old
Clichy- Meh
Kompany- Injured
Stones-
Otamendi- Shit
Toure- Lazy
Gundogan- Cripple
Fernando- Meh
Fernandihno- Good
Silva- On the wane
Aguero- Injured
De Brunye- Quality
Sterling- Shit
Navas- Meh
Sane- Who?
The guy has gone from working with 2 of the greatest teams we've seen in the modern era to this. How could he possibly have been expected to win the League with a squad like that? His transfers have been awful though, but generally that's always been the case wherever he's been. However I said it ages ago, Messi was the real reason for that Barca's teams success, Pep was a beneficiary of having him, Xavi and Iniesta. Not to take away all credit from Pep but it was nigh on impossible to beat a team with those 3 in it. At Bayern Pep was a complete and utter failure.