Oh OK, understood. Bit thin skinned on this subject as I've been hung, drawn & quartered a few times, for daring to doubt Mr Mata.
Is Mata overrated?
- Thread starter The Azzurri
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Every player deserves their criticism, you have given well rounded reasons for your thoughts, Azzuri, the op, basically asked a question and expected an arguement to spread without giving his own view which annoys a lot.Oh OK, understood. Bit thin skinned on this subject as I've been hung, drawn & quartered a few times, for daring to doubt Mr Mata.
When I said about him only having 1000 post I realised you're only around 600 yourself but you're not here making daft threads so I suppose it's only a small few that make it up then don't show why
He's probably the best footballer at the club and has been our best outfield player since his arrival. He will thrive when we have a proper midfield behind him.
Very kind but many would beg to differWhen I said about him only having 1000 post I realised you're only around 600 yourself but you're not here making daft threads so I suppose it's only a small few that make it up then don't show why
On reflection, I've had my 'newbie' moments - takes time to find your feet & understand the 'rules' of the game. A couple of verbal castrations don't do any harm, so long as they're meant in fun & not the, nothing better to do but 'troll' a newbie type. Agreed, and sadly this thread seems to fall under this categoryVery kind but many would beg to differ
You're of course free to value that sort of player. Not everyone likes the same brand/style of football.
Personally, I want our no.10 to be a "multiplier". The type of player who can single-handedly take a 7 out 10 team performance and turn it into a 9 out of 10, just by his clever movement and passing. Having deep strikers like Rooney isn't an awful setup if you have the right midfielders. But we don't. Hence it's better to let Rooney be our backup plan. We're too predictable with players like Rooney in the no.10 position.
Rooney's defensive contribution is one of the most overrated things in football. He's aggressive and direct, so he'll occasionally force the opponent to misplace a pass. But he's clueless about what to do after the ball is won, and so is our midfield. Players like Kagawa and Mata(especially the former) are great at being available for a pass and create a new solution after the ball is won back. This is a much better defensive skillset to have when you're an AM. Putting the opponent under pressure is the job of the central midfielders. It's almost completely useless when you're a no.10.
He is one of the best playmakers in the world. I just want a proper manager who knows how to use him. Maybe we need Benitez...
Overrated is harsh, but let's give the OP an open mind. Thinking back to his transfer, I do believe there was a collective sense that Mata was exactly the missing piece of the puzzle and would lift the team in a significant way. The fact that it hasn't turned out to be the case makes it clear that the problems with the club run deep. As far as Mata himself, clearly he's a top player with his best years ahead of him, but at 37M I think the "he needs other good payers around him" argument is a bit weak. I do think expectations should be high, and while I think he has been very good at times he hasn't shown himself to take command of games in any way that one might expect from a record signing.
No
Sack Giggs sell Mata.I'd say he's the best player at the club, after De Gea. Due to Vida & RVP's injuries, i'd say he's the only one (other than De Gea) who can be considered - amongst fans around the world, as well as United fans - as one of the very best of his position in the world (some would say Silva is the best, but Mata was better in 12/13 and is younger). He was Chelsea's best player for 2 years - a one man team for them in every sense of the word during 12/13 - and then fell out of favour with a new manager. It's not even like he was dropped at Chelsea because he was underperforming - Mourinho simply wanted a player who would offer more defensively, as he has said so himself. You'd be crazy to say that, right now, Oscar is better as a #10, going forward.
He has since come to a quite terrible United side and still managed to outperform every other of our outfield players since January (between him, Shinji & Rooney as far as the midfielders and forwards go), often being played out of position in a team that clearly doesn't suit his strengths. I'm not saying he's better than Rooney, as the latter is more proven, but he is the better of the two as a #10, and rarely gets time in that position, & instead must come in from a slightly wider position in a team that pumps it out to the wings every time.
Watch him return to his 12/13 form (and hopefully better it) with a new manager who knows how to play real football, & who will accommodate him into the side properly. He is an excellent player, but is simply not shining so much at the moment because of the system, or lack of it, that we play.
You could also argue Silva also has the best set of players around him to get the best out of his quality. I think for Mata though he would probably be best served in a more counter attacking team, I think his general and build up play isn't at the level of those two but when it comes to delivering the key pass or goal he is very good.
You could tell we lack real creativity outside the box when he went off the pitch. Once we have a solid midfield behind him with one creating things also from midfield we'll definitely see the best of him. I'm just worried that if van Gaal takes over he won't fit perfectly into his plans.
He's obviously great with the ball, although I fear we need to buy someone to play behind him and do a lot of his work for him.
I can see why Jose wouldn't put up with that but Benitez got the best out of Mata by using Ramires to do his running, Henderson does the same for Coutinho at Liverpool.
I can see why Jose wouldn't put up with that but Benitez got the best out of Mata by using Ramires to do his running, Henderson does the same for Coutinho at Liverpool.
He needs technical players on the same mind frame around him to get the best out of him. We only have Kagawa and Januzaj who fit that category, Mata and Kagawa gave clicked in a few games they played together but in order for that to work we need strong CM which is another story.
RVP can fit in with these three, on a technical level but that would be a pretty lightweight forward line, requiring a world class midfield & central defence & attacking physical full backs.
Season 2014/15 (Euro free)
--------------De Gea------------
--------Smalling?--Garay--------
Coleman-------------------Shaw
--------Carvalho---Guarin
----Januzaj---Mata---Kagawa
----------------RVP--------------
Amos, Jones, Evans, Fellaini, Valencia, Lingard, Powell, Rooney, Welbeck,
I'll say no. I understand why someone would think he is though. Especially if you didn't really see him much at Chelsea. You would have heard the hype, the excitement, and the money. You'd be expecting big things and to be honest he's been OK. Some average games, a few poor ones and one or two good ones. The thing is, he's a bloody brilliant player. He's just not being used correctly and is surrounded by a bunch of average players. He's being dragged down because of the inept dross around him. If he had other players around him that had decent technique and could actually move off the ball it would help. Also, not playing the ball out wide 99% of the time would help too.
I think that the OP poster is overrated.. he should be sent back to the newbies!
Bearing in mind that 'overrated' doesn't mean 'rubbish' -
Is Mata overrated? It depends who's rating is being taken into account.
Was his signing overplayed a bit? Yes, in my opinion. I could see from a mile off that this signing would do little to change our style/tempo of play. It was nice purely for the confirmation that Woodward is capable of completing a big deal abnd our dip hasn't put off top players. But this signing won't change our football without two centre midfielders.
Would we have been better off throwing the money at Matic for example (assuming he'd have come here)? Yes, and our football would be better for it.
However, it's still great to have him, and once we have a couple of midfielders who can be fully trusted on the ball, can turn on the ball and beat a man, can play a one-touch pass forward, and create space properly, the whole team (and especially Mata and Kagawa) will look so much more fluid and cohesive.
Throw someone like Ramsey in the side, and Mata would have looked a much better player, since his arrival.
Our football suffers because the key area for a passing game (the bridge between centre midfielder and number 10) is the one area our midfielders have no confidence and/or skill to play in.
Ramsey, Toure, Henderson, even Delph....
All pretty comfortable playing in that congested area; can all turn, beat a man, pass one-touch.
Nobody in centre midfield does that for us (only Anderson consistently tried), thus a whole area of the pitch is bypassed except for when the game is played at a snail's pace.
You see the same for England: If there's a man five yards in front of the ball carrier with a marker slightly near him (but with the space to potentially turn his man and be create a good opportunity), and a man sideways on the halfway line or a centre back behind - They'll never attempt the forward pass. Zero confidence to try the forward pass.
You only need to do this a few times a half, and your number 10 becomes redundant.
And it affects the whole team. Smalling looks horrendous at right back. But throw in a midfielder who doesn't just give it to him and leave him to it, and he wouldn't have to resort to hoofing it, due to being isolated.
Would Smalling look so poor with Scholes there? No.
There's nothing this team can do style wise - without a top midfielder or two.
Is Mata overrated? It depends who's rating is being taken into account.
Was his signing overplayed a bit? Yes, in my opinion. I could see from a mile off that this signing would do little to change our style/tempo of play. It was nice purely for the confirmation that Woodward is capable of completing a big deal abnd our dip hasn't put off top players. But this signing won't change our football without two centre midfielders.
Would we have been better off throwing the money at Matic for example (assuming he'd have come here)? Yes, and our football would be better for it.
However, it's still great to have him, and once we have a couple of midfielders who can be fully trusted on the ball, can turn on the ball and beat a man, can play a one-touch pass forward, and create space properly, the whole team (and especially Mata and Kagawa) will look so much more fluid and cohesive.
Throw someone like Ramsey in the side, and Mata would have looked a much better player, since his arrival.
Our football suffers because the key area for a passing game (the bridge between centre midfielder and number 10) is the one area our midfielders have no confidence and/or skill to play in.
Ramsey, Toure, Henderson, even Delph....
All pretty comfortable playing in that congested area; can all turn, beat a man, pass one-touch.
Nobody in centre midfield does that for us (only Anderson consistently tried), thus a whole area of the pitch is bypassed except for when the game is played at a snail's pace.
You see the same for England: If there's a man five yards in front of the ball carrier with a marker slightly near him (but with the space to potentially turn his man and be create a good opportunity), and a man sideways on the halfway line or a centre back behind - They'll never attempt the forward pass. Zero confidence to try the forward pass.
You only need to do this a few times a half, and your number 10 becomes redundant.
And it affects the whole team. Smalling looks horrendous at right back. But throw in a midfielder who doesn't just give it to him and leave him to it, and he wouldn't have to resort to hoofing it, due to being isolated.
Would Smalling look so poor with Scholes there? No.
There's nothing this team can do style wise - without a top midfielder or two.
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I didn't watch the game yesterday, so I don't know how he played but overall I think he is overrated, but no more than any other big signing who comes in to the club for a fee that large.
Build the team around him next season.
I lobe how people wank over Silva (rightly so) and choose to ignore the fact that in top form, Mata is on the same level. We should build a team around this guy, that's how good he can be. We have a genuinely world class #10 yet we choose to play down the wings and put 790 pointless crosses a match then wonder if Mata is overrated. Our football is shit, Mata ain't.
He's definitely been better when Kagawa has played too
I disagree. Mata has pretty much been a Kagawa clone, with more effectivity. Mata has been anonymous when we suck, and brilliant when we click. Pretty much the same story as Kagawa.
Being more effective is the same as being better, surely?
Hernandez was more effective than both RVP and Rooney last season. He was better than neither of them, imo.
Effective/better is always an interesting discussion. When you say one player is more effective than the other it's because he actually isn't better.
Are Mata's goals/assist stats worth as much as what Silva brings a team in terms of control and dictating play? Not for me. Technically Silva is superior and he has a better footballing brain. Mata was a signal of our intent but he really wasn't the player we needed. Very good payer though.
Are Mata's goals/assist stats worth as much as what Silva brings a team in terms of control and dictating play? Not for me. Technically Silva is superior and he has a better footballing brain. Mata was a signal of our intent but he really wasn't the player we needed. Very good payer though.
I disagree. Being effective is a skill in itself. Mata might not make a lot of Hollywood passes or score many screamers(apart from his freekicks), but at the end of the day, he's still scoring and assisting. It takes great awareness to be at the right place at the right time.
I also disagree that Silva has a better football brain.
In what sense would you say he was more effective than van Persie? I'd say van Persie's 7 goals in 10 games against Liverpool, Spurs, Arsenal and Chelsea count for far more in terms of effectiveness than Hernández's superior goals per minute ratio personally, never mind the difference in all-round play.
I do think Mata's been overrated for about 18 months now but he is a great player and a great signing. The fact he's our record transfer means we have to find a way of getting the best out of him (unlike Kagawa who was relatively cheap). That alone will mean his presence in the team forces us to make a tough decision re: Rooney and van Persie and our style of play which will ultimately benefit us in the long-term. He really should be the catalyst for a change in approach.
I think Mata is a great player and isn't overrated at all.The more interesting question is whether he was the right buy for us.
I would say no, he wasn't a great fit for us.Now that we have Mata we are have to play a formation with a number 10.We can't play a traditional 433 for example with him in the team.
I think we should have got a player with pace instead but obviously the tranfer is done now and it will be Van Gaal job to fit him in.Perhaps he will find a formation that works really well but it makes it that bit harder when you have another player that has to be in the team.
I would say no, he wasn't a great fit for us.Now that we have Mata we are have to play a formation with a number 10.We can't play a traditional 433 for example with him in the team.
I think we should have got a player with pace instead but obviously the tranfer is done now and it will be Van Gaal job to fit him in.Perhaps he will find a formation that works really well but it makes it that bit harder when you have another player that has to be in the team.
I definitely agree. I just think that his overall play for us so far is very similar to Kagawa's. He has a higher goals/assist ratio than Kagawa, but his overall influence on the game hasn't been better at all.
But I'm consistent in my complaints. I gave Kagawa the benefit of the doubt and blamed the team/manager, and I will give Mata the same luxury. In a top team, playing top football, under a top manager, Mata is world class. His edge over Kagawa is that he's PL proven(hence his high price).
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Hard to assess anything after this season where everybody has underperformed so much. But I consider Mata unthreatened as our most important outfield player unless RVP regains his form of last season again. In any case RVP and Mata are perfect fits for each other, so the system that best suits Mata will also suit RVP perfectly.
Rooney is a bit of a different story, he is far from world-class in the second striker role and as a lone striker he hasn't proven himself in some time and when he got the chance with Mata/Kagawa I don't think it has clicked a lot when we played more possession like football. One of van Gaal's more strict philosophies is that the striker shouldn't be a part of the overall game because his role up front is too important to leave it.
For the first time in a long time we can field a front four who all thrive in the exact same type of football where the individual quality is top notch. Kagawa-Mata-Nani with RVP in front of them. I can't see Rooney playing as a LW for van Gaal as Rooney's dribbling is poor and playing for van Gaal as a winger often requires your best skills to be related to 1 vs 1 to take players on.
Rooney is a bit of a different story, he is far from world-class in the second striker role and as a lone striker he hasn't proven himself in some time and when he got the chance with Mata/Kagawa I don't think it has clicked a lot when we played more possession like football. One of van Gaal's more strict philosophies is that the striker shouldn't be a part of the overall game because his role up front is too important to leave it.
For the first time in a long time we can field a front four who all thrive in the exact same type of football where the individual quality is top notch. Kagawa-Mata-Nani with RVP in front of them. I can't see Rooney playing as a LW for van Gaal as Rooney's dribbling is poor and playing for van Gaal as a winger often requires your best skills to be related to 1 vs 1 to take players on.
Do you get alerts when Kagawa's name is mentioned or something?
I've already written a couple of posts in this thread and the topic interests me
I get alerts every time it's bumped.
As for the Mata is a Kagawa clone, I stat I find amusing is:
Mata: Played: 13 (1) Scored: 5 Assisted: 4
Kagawa: Played: 29 (7) Scored: 6 Assisted: 6
As these are just stats, I know they don't tell a full story, but it's I thought I'd throw it out there
As for playing a 433...It can be done, it just means having two deep players in CM (one more defensive and one more creative), and then have mata play in the whole behind the wingers and striker
This thread is a joke.
I think Kagawa has a better ability to influence the game overall as he drops to the midfield plenty and when he cuts in it is more than often crossing the central midfield area. Mata is more of a final-third player turning possession in to penetration with smart runs and plays.
Both of course cross over and has abilities in the other persons role, with Mata it is best seen when he moves out wide or starts dictating the game at times. Kagawa of course can play the AM role with no problems at all which is why they interchange positions, roles and responsibilities so well.
Rooney for example never swaps to be a winger with Kagawa or Nani, nor does he change position when he drops deep in to the midfield - it is usually just him moving there with nobody else interchanging at all. The same goes for him and RVP, rarely do you see them change so Rooney is a striker and RVP is the AM. Ideally you want more complexity than that like RVP moving to AM, Rooney out wide and the winger make a run behind the defense as a striker while the team keeps shape.
No it's for me. You have to be put in the position to be effective, when your ability lacks. The system makes up for what your game doesn't have. It hides your deficiencies. The best players can play in any system. Once you say A is more effective than B, to me that says B is better but A has better stats.
That's fine but for me that ability Silva has is more priceless. He will make the game easier for the players around him. He dictates the game, keeps the ball under immense pressure, he makes the right decision 9/10 times. Mata doesn't have that level of technical or tactical ability. What he does he is very good at. Bit in term's of no.10's Ozil/Silva/Iniesta (if you want to call him a 10 are better) are the elite Mata is the level below. Like I said very good just not what we needed.
Silva's football brain >>> Mata's. It's just so clear in the way they play. Players like Silva see the pass before the pass. Something Mata doesn't.
@JaffyJoe
I disagree with pretty much everything you write. Effectivity is a skill in itself, if you can keep it consistent at the highest level. If a striker apparently sucks at everything but scoring goals and assisting, then he'll still be considered the best striker in the world if he scores and assists more than the other strikers.
Silva is quicker, and better at dribbling and finishing. That's his edge over Mata. But Mata has better set pieces and awareness(he has a knack for being at the right place at the right time). Their overall level(and fotball brain for that matter), is fairly equal. Silva is just currently having a better season.
I disagree with pretty much everything you write. Effectivity is a skill in itself, if you can keep it consistent at the highest level. If a striker apparently sucks at everything but scoring goals and assisting, then he'll still be considered the best striker in the world if he scores and assists more than the other strikers.
Silva is quicker, and better at dribbling and finishing. That's his edge over Mata. But Mata has better set pieces and awareness(he has a knack for being at the right place at the right time). Their overall level(and fotball brain for that matter), is fairly equal. Silva is just currently having a better season.
Preach brother!
Iniesta isn't in the same bracket with Ozil and Silva. And Mata probably is - even with Silva, maybe, being slightly better player. They have a different styles of play though and different strengths. Mata is more direct player (just look at his goalscoring stats), more suited for English football, I'd say, Silva, on the other hand, is always looking for the pass - it's just that he is a playmaker and Mata is an attacking midfielder. And don't forget that Mata is 2 years younger.
Also, I'd say that Ozil is the inferior to all in the Spanish trinity, considering his big-game contribution and work-ethics - he's a luxury player.