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Is Mata overrated?

Annahnomoss

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Iniesta isn't in the same bracket with Ozil and Silva. And Mata probably is - even with Silva, maybe, being slightly better player. They have a different styles of play though and different strengths. Mata is more direct player (just look at his goalscoring stats), more suited for English football, I'd say, Silva, on the other hand, is always looking for the pass - it's just that he is a playmaker and Mata is an attacking midfielder. And don't forget that Mata is 2 years younger.

Also, I'd say that Ozil is the inferior to all in the Spanish trinity, considering his big-game contribution and work-ethics - he's a luxury player.
I think Iniesta(Who I think has taken a slight step down) and Silva are in their own group, they have the added ability to not just make great passes but actually create the openings themselves with their brilliant close control and dribbling. They also are among the best playmakers in the world which I think adds to their broader skill-set.

Mata is a level above Ozil in my eyes, I don't consider him as influential to a team in terms of consistency especially and stepping up against the big clubs.
 

JaffyJoe

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@JaffyJoe

I disagree with pretty much everything you write. Effectivity is a skill in itself, if you can keep it consistent at the highest level. If a striker apparently sucks at everything but scoring goals and assisting, then he'll still be considered the best striker in the world if he scores and assists more than the other strikers.

Silva is quicker, and better at dribbling and finishing. That's his edge over Mata. But Mata has better set pieces and awareness(he has a knack for being at the right place at the right time). Their overall level(and fotball brain for that matter), is fairly equal. Silva is just currently having a better season.
If the great qualifier. You can use if to justify anything. I enjoy debating the game so I don't mind if we disagree.

As good as Henderson looks for Liverpool (their best midfielder over the course of the season), ability wise I don't rate him that highly. The system Liverpool plays allows him to be EFFECTIVE, despite what his game lacks. Picking out players who are good in particular system and are thus having great form and picking out players who are thriving due to their ability is why so many signings fail.

Your effectiveness point only rings true for me if a player is doing it in various teams/systems. Someone like Thomas Muller. If you are only effective in one particular system that is because it suits your attributes.

Only Ozil and Iniesta are on Silva's level when these no.10's at their best. Mata is on the same level as Cazorla. There is a reason he couldn't get into the last Spanish squad ahead of an out of form Cazorla. There is a reason even at his peak for Chelsea Silva kept him on the bench. He isn't on Silva's level technically or tactically. He doesn't see the game the way Silva does,the game isn't as easy for him as it is for Silva. He can't influence the game like Silva does for Spain.

The technical ability these guys have is higher than that of Mata. Silva has always been better than Mata in a way you only notice if you watch them both play. The way Silva keeps the ball, makes things easier for others, distributes the ball, he keeps moves and attacks going or even starts moves that Mata isn't capable of doing.

Silva isn't a good finisher and he isn't fast those are odd things to pick out about his game. Awareness is more than being at the right place at the right time. It is about the passes you make, your vision, knowing what is going around you. Silva does these things better than Mata. Mata has a good brain, but his ability to see the whole pitch in comparison to the very best guys is lacking.

Mata gets 20 goals and 20 assists at his peak which is great but i'd rather Silva for what he brings, it is harder to find.

Back to thread title, if you have Mata as one of the very best no.10's yes he is overrated. He's the level below for me. He is a luxury signing but if we bring in some pacy attacking players it will be worth it. Then Mata can do what he does best. He is a very creative player, playing him as a 10. with intelligent movement around him will have him playing at a very high level.
 

JaffyJoe

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Iniesta isn't in the same bracket with Ozil and Silva. And Mata probably is - even with Silva, maybe, being slightly better player. They have a different styles of play though and different strengths. Mata is more direct player (just look at his goalscoring stats), more suited for English football, I'd say, Silva, on the other hand, is always looking for the pass - it's just that he is a playmaker and Mata is an attacking midfielder. And don't forget that Mata is 2 years younger.

Also, I'd say that Ozil is the inferior to all in the Spanish trinity, considering his big-game contribution and work-ethics - he's a luxury player.
They are the three that are world class for me. But if we are talking ability. Iniesta is alone. Ability wise Ozil is up there in the world class bracket. I feel it is his mentality that holds him back, he just isn't hungry enough. But discussing ability he's in the highest bracket he is Arsenal's best player. I personally have Mata at the same level as Cazorla. Just off the best guys.
 

harms

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They are the three that are world class for me. But if we are talking ability. Iniesta is alone. Ability wise Ozil is up there in the world class bracket. I feel it is his mentality that holds him back, he just isn't hungry enough. But discussing ability he's in the highest bracket he is Arsenal's best player. I personally have Mata at the same level as Cazorla. Just off the best guys.
Woah woah woah! Slow down here :nono:

He was (and still is) consistently one of the best players in the league and was instrumental in Chelsea's European success. Cazorla is nowhere near him. He is more like Kagawa right now, but even his peak was also more impressive.
 
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harms

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I think Iniesta(Who I think has taken a slight step down) and Silva are in their own group, they have the added ability to not just make great passes but actually create the openings themselves with their brilliant close control and dribbling. They also are among the best playmakers in the world which I think adds to their broader skill-set.

Mata is a level above Ozil in my eyes, I don't consider him as influential to a team in terms of consistency especially and stepping up against the big clubs.
That's why I don't like to group players. I certainly have them like this Iniesta - Silva - Mata - Ozil, but I think that the gap between Iniesta and Silva is bigger than between Silva and Mata. Maybe it's my mancrush on Iniesta though, he never fails to impress me. And the gap between these two is literally visible because they're very similar players - but Andres just does everything a little better.
 

Annahnomoss

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That's why I don't like to group players. I certainly have them like this Iniesta - Silva - Mata - Ozil, but I think that the gap between Iniesta and Silva is bigger than between Silva and Mata. Maybe it's my mancrush on Iniesta though, he never fails to impress me. And the gap between these two is literally visible because they're very similar players - but Andres just does everything a little better.
I agree, I think Iniesta has taken a step down lately though while Silva is having possibly the season of his life. A regular season or talking about them both at their best then Iniesta is unthreatened.
 

JSMHE

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I don't think he's overrated He's done really well, but I agree with you he should done better. For a 37.1 million I'm expecting much better performance, but you know he needs more time to settle anyway.

The main problem of Mata is number 10 role is never be our main problem because we already have Kagawa, Rooney, Januzaj. We should had use 37.1 million for a winger or centre midfield instead. Because I think new quality CM or winger will improve our squad much better than signing Mata. Cabaye was available in January but we decided to focus on other position.
 

JaffyJoe

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Woah woah woah! Slow down here :nono:

He was (and still is) consistently one of the best players in the league and was instrumental in Chelsea's European success. Cazorla is nowhere near him. He is more like Kagawa right now, but even his peak was also more impressive.
I'm talking about ability here. What he has done and influence is a different conversation. Of course Mata has had a bigger impact he played his favourite role for better team. But you have to tell me/ show me where he as a player excels more than Cazorla. I don't see it. Cazorla is one of the best players in the league too.
 

adexkola

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That's why I don't like to group players. I certainly have them like this Iniesta - Silva - Mata - Ozil, but I think that the gap between Iniesta and Silva is bigger than between Silva and Mata. Maybe it's my mancrush on Iniesta though, he never fails to impress me. And the gap between these two is literally visible because they're very similar players - but Andres just does everything a little better.
Yeah that is it.
 

Cina

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Mata better than Ozil? :lol:
Why is that so hard to believe? He was more productive for the previous two seasons in an inferior team. Probably the best player in the PL overall.

Ozil is a criminally overrated player at times.
 

kundalini

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I prefer Kagawa or Januzaj as no 10. Mata is a good player but no better than the likes of Nani and Kagawa. All 3 have been superb when used in a system that suits them but alarmingly ineffective when the manager doesn't have total faith in them or uses them out of position.
 

harms

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I'm talking about ability here. What he has done and influence is a different conversation. Of course Mata has had a bigger impact he played his favourite role for better team. But you have to tell me/ show me where he as a player excels more than Cazorla. I don't see it. Cazorla is one of the best players in the league too.
I don't know why are you so fixated on ability - ability-wise Ramos is, probably, the best CB around, closely followed by David Luiz and Quaresma is one of the best players in the world - but it sounds like a joke, right? Because it's not only ability that counts.
 

Varun

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Yeah that is it.
Not really. The gap between Iniesta and Silva is definitely bigger than Silva and Mata who I think are very similar players overall though Silva's better at playmaking and Mata better in terms of end product.
 

jeff_goldblum

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I prefer Kagawa or Januzaj as no 10. Mata is a good player but no better than the likes of Nani and Kagawa. All 3 have been superb when used in a system that suits them but alarmingly ineffective when the manager doesn't have total faith in them or uses them out of position.
Really? Mata was absolutely incredible for Chelsea the last 2 seasons, better than anything Kagawa and Nani have shown in their careers. He was arguably the best player in the league last season and 2nd to Van Persie the year before.

Hell even for us this season he's scored or assisted 9 goals in 14 appearances. Hardly ineffective.
 

united_99

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Iniesta is a level above Silva, who himself is a level above Mata. Özil is fine, but for me not better than Mata. Don't think Özil has improved btw since the WC in 2010, maybe he still will. But at the same time I preferred the Mata who played for Valencia even more to that who played for Chelsea and would also say he hasn't improved that much if at all from his Valencia days. That's not a dig as both Özil and Mata were very good and mature players for their age when they were 20/21/22. Both have more to offer and should start showing it within the next couple of years.
 

adexkola

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So what, Silva is better or on par with Iniesta?
Sorry for not clarifying, my lazy streak coming into play.

Iniesta is better than Silva, but his performances over the past 2 years does not place him significantly ahead of Silva. 3, 4 years ago I would have agreed with you.
 

harms

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Sorry for not clarifying, my lazy streak coming into play.

Iniesta is better than Silva, but his performances over the past 2 years does not place him significantly ahead of Silva. 3, 4 years ago I would have agreed with you.
That I can understand.
 

Freak

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I'm pretty sure that if we replaced mata with silva or iniesta they'd struggle as well. Our team has deep problems that isn't going to be solved by adding more world class attackers. We literally have no midfield or wide players of the required quality which is a shame because we have some really class players in attack.
 

ghagua

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I don't think Mata is overrated when his team has the ball, his movement, passing and goal scoring is top notch. But when the opposition has the ball, he is god damn awful. I think we did overspend for him though. A fee up to 30 million would have been a good price for him.
 

JaffyJoe

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I don't know why are you so fixated on ability - ability-wise Ramos is, probably, the best CB around, closely followed by David Luiz and Quaresma is one of the best players in the world - but it sounds like a joke, right? Because it's not only ability that counts.
We are discussing ability. Who the better footballer is. If you tell me so and so is better because he scored x amount of goals playing in x team. That for me is not how I separate who a better footballer is. The point your making about who is playing better is a product of environment as much as it is ability. If Gareth Bale played for Crystal Palace he would get maybe let's say 12 goals in a season, but at Real he has 20. His ability has not changed but he is in a situation and environment which allows him to flourish more. Separating form/ability is something people rarely do. It's the reason someone will tell you Henderson is better than Wilshere. Ability doesn't change much year to year, your form does and the situation which you are in does, that is what allows you to play to the best of your abilities changes. If we are discussing who the better player is and we are comparing players at the highest level ability will be the final separator for me.

That is my point.
 

JaffyJoe

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I'm pretty sure that if we replaced mata with silva or iniesta they'd struggle as well. Our team has deep problems that isn't going to be solved by adding more world class attackers. We literally have no midfield or wide players of the required quality which is a shame because we have some really class players in attack.
This is my point. They wouldn't struggle like Mata has because they have more ability. Ozil may well do because he needs players making runs for him to be most effective and to pick the passes few others can. When you are in a bad situation what your game lacks is shown more and when you are in an idea situation your weaknesses are hidden.
 

Sandikan

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the time to see how effective Mata can be for us, is under an attacking manager.

Mata under Moyes was such a mismatch it's plain ridiculous.
 

Nozzy

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  1. But when the opposition has the ball, he is god damn awful.
  2. I think we did overspend for him though.
  3. A fee up to 30 million would have been a good price for him.
YES
YES
£22m - ish

;)
 

HabeasC

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I really hate that the most common Mata thread to pop up on the CAF home page is one that questions his ability.