He's not a Mourinho-type advanced midfielder. At best, he can be box-to-box in a 3.
Is Pogba being misused by Mourinho ?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
McTominay maybe?
A role strictly determined, Pogba doesn't have the tactical nous to shift from one duty to an other without being told. It's speculative but he is the type of player that would thrive under LVG or Guardiola because of their controlling nature.
We need a player in the David Silva mould next to him, interchanging no.8 and no.10 positions. Along with that we need a no.9 that technically excels at keeping hold of the ball in tight spaces. We don't have enough players that are very technically gifted I'm afraid.
Injury, suspension and a drop in the teams confidence and form has all contributed to Pauls lackluster performances of late. I don't put it down to where he is being played;just a combination of the reasons I listed. I do expect more personality and leadership from him, because I believe he has those qualities in him.
Once we get the loss to shitty out of our system and start focusing on our season, I'm sure we'll see more from Paul.
Once we get the loss to shitty out of our system and start focusing on our season, I'm sure we'll see more from Paul.
Completely agree with Scholes here and I have been saying something similar for some time. I think what we need ideally is an expert passer to play in midfield. Someone that will look for the ball and set up attacks basically someone that will run the show. Forget Ozil, forget Griezmann, forget Dybala, we need a Modric. Play said individual in a 4-3-3 alongside (or slightly ahead of) Matic and then give Pogba free reign to play his game. Pogba can come into midfield to look for the ball and help out at times if we are overrun while he will also be able to shoot from distance, set up attacks and even get into the box on the end of crosses like Lampard did. I believe if we could do this and also add a right winger as well as work on our attacking movement and link up play then we would look like a totally different team. Having said all that, I havent a clue who that Modric type player should be or if there is anyone that could do that available which isn't ideal.
Don't know about being 'misused' but I did find it odd that we had him play an even deeper DM role his first few games here. How do we sign a player for 90M and not know what he's good and bad at?
Scholes has absolutely nailed it there. Remember vividly the thread before he signed where some posters got shouted at for pointing out that Pogba is not someone who controls games but is more of a match winner you play alongside that guy.
Anyways, to answer the OP, yes, we are misusing him we paid top whack for him and have since made him do stuff which never made him a 90mil player in the first place. Can he do what he's been asked to do? Absolutely. He's probably among the most complete CMs out there but this role is not what he's best at.
A 3 man midfield with a Matic sitting deep, a Kroos dictating play and Pogba being allowed to do his thing is what's needed to get the best out of him.
Also, unlike some opinions, I don't think moving him further forward is the best way to use him either. He's not a #10 and that's not how you get the best out of him.
Anyways, to answer the OP, yes, we are misusing him we paid top whack for him and have since made him do stuff which never made him a 90mil player in the first place. Can he do what he's been asked to do? Absolutely. He's probably among the most complete CMs out there but this role is not what he's best at.
A 3 man midfield with a Matic sitting deep, a Kroos dictating play and Pogba being allowed to do his thing is what's needed to get the best out of him.
Also, unlike some opinions, I don't think moving him further forward is the best way to use him either. He's not a #10 and that's not how you get the best out of him.
I can see what he's trying to achieve with him, but we risk him being ruined and utterly wasted. Why not use him in his best position and get the most out of the tremendous and obvious talent he has. Maybe later in his career he'll be the player Jose wants him to be, but right now he's not that man.
Spot on.
Both Pogba and Martial are 'luxury' players that United cannot afford to carry in the team right now. A team needs to sweat blood to earn the right to play its football, neither of these players will ever do that.
Sell both to Madrid for £200m , and invest wisely ( if United have remembered how to do this) in 5 players that will improve the team in a balanced way.
Sell both to Madrid for £200m , and invest wisely ( if United have remembered how to do this) in 5 players that will improve the team in a balanced way.
Think part of the problem is Matic can't really dictate the game so Pogba need to take up that role. We so much miss a prime Carrick as he would have lifted us so much. Still though Mourinho should be able to get the system doing the job rather than just hoping players will sort things out. Mourinhos tactical limits are sadly exposed when he don't have amazing players to sort things out for him.
We're a bit fecked if quality footballers are termed a luxury and we strive to sign the next Scott Parker.
I'd rather have Pogba as the creative midfielder a la Matthaus at Inter Milan.
.........Lukaku.........
.Martial.......Lingard
.........Pogba.........
...Matic...Herrera....
.......Back 4............
.........Lukaku.........
.Martial.......Lingard
.........Pogba.........
...Matic...Herrera....
.......Back 4............
Completely agree. Some of those "hollywood" balls he played yesterday could have been pre assists if they didn't go to Mhiki who fecked up about 20 crosses.
I know I sound like a fan boy saying this, but it's the players in front of Pogba that are the problem, he looks a class above the rest of the team.
This is the way I think Utd should set up when I look at the players available. I'm a firm believer in building the system around the player that has the biggest potential to influence the game. For you guys that is Pogba and thus the system should be geared towards his strengths as a box-to-box midfielder with a tendency to roam around the attacking half. As he has a tendency to roam you want at least one "less dynamic" (for the lack of a better term) midfielder to cover and another strong runner in the middle. Herrera seems to be a bit out of form, but unless he regains form someone in a similar mould would work fine.
A problem with this 4-3-3 formation (and the very similar 4-2-3-1 formation for that matter) is that you have very little threat out wide. I wouldn't describe one of Martial, Mkhitaryan, Mata, Lingard, or Rashford as a true wing players, and your full backs aren't great at going forward either (or perhaps are instructed to stay back). Since your attacking midfielders tend to stray towards the middle and the full backs don't tend to take deep runs your opposition can defend almost comically narrow, and it's no wonder so many shots are blocked. If I was the Utd manager I'd play Pogba in a midfield 3 and let him move around the pitch pretty much wherever he feels he can influence the game, instruct the full backs to overlap more often when attacking (leaving 5 players in decent defensive positions if possession is lost - the two CBs, two central mids, and the full back on the other side) , and desperately try to sign a strong wing player or two.
As it is right now it's difficult to come up with a really strong formation as wing play often is necessary to increase distance between defending players when you're attacking. A back 3 with wingbacks could perhaps be another idea as the full backs would feel there is enough cover at the back should they lose possession when attacking and they're on the overlap.
EDIT: Kinda rambled on a bit and forgot that this is a Pogba topic. Don't play him as a holding midfielder. Play three in the middle with Pogba as the most advanced one and let him run around wherever he wants. Build team around him and his strengths.
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Yes. If people think he is already good for us, then you havent seen him for Juve. We need a different formation with a more advanced central midfield role, and we need to surround him with better players. He gets totally misused currently. Build the team around him, would be worth it. Playing him in a midfield 2 with these players is a waste
Don't get this mentality all, to me it's pure nonsense. Sounds like a post that an old English manager would make, like Neil Warnock or Alan Curbishley. We need more quality players who play attractive fast and fluid football, who have a bit of genius about them. Sounds like you want a team of work horses who get the job done, like some Championship team.
Maybe Pogba is not playing in his most suited position. However, he has shown in the past that he can amazing games playing as a deep lying midifielder as well as a b2b player. Ever since his sending off, he has looked lethargic and arrogant. He needs to give more in the role he is being asked to perform. Our squad is not perfect and we need players to adjust to different roles.
Irrespective of the role, I can’t quite fathom him not scoring more goals, especially with the number of attempts outside the box. I see players such as KDB deciding tight games through screamers. While Pogba always seems to go close but not close enough.
Irrespective of the role, I can’t quite fathom him not scoring more goals, especially with the number of attempts outside the box. I see players such as KDB deciding tight games through screamers. While Pogba always seems to go close but not close enough.
5 players for £200m wont guarantee anything just like Pogba+Martial will find it tough to fetch that sum
Yeah I still think him being the farthest forward in a mid 3 is the best spot, But to do that you need another winger and a mobile striker for a fluid front 3, not a target man such as Lukaku. So I'm not sure what we do.
We've got too many pieces for different jigsaws, and they simply don't fit together.
personally i dont undersand pogba, he can put a absolutely sublime ball through one minute then look like a camel next.
Seems since he`s arrived here all the talks about where`s his position, paul scholes is most probably right as pogba needs space to play, just to inconsistent for me.
Seems since he`s arrived here all the talks about where`s his position, paul scholes is most probably right as pogba needs space to play, just to inconsistent for me.
What an unbelievably silly post, and a huge contradiction in terms."He has to influence the play like De Bruyne and Silva"
1. Neither have to come back and pick up the ball as deep as Pogba does
2. Both receive the ball to feet, or in front of them on the half-turn in the last third of the pitch
3. City play a possession game which circulates the ball to give those players more touches on the ball
It's such an oversimplification to go, "oh, more effort and inventiveness like those two" without considering the tactical context of the system which they play in.
Of course Silva and KDB play in a different system, but they influence the play in a different way than we would expect Pogba to do.
Way to simplistic a way to look at things.
Yep, Scholes is spot on, it's like buying Neymar and then asking him to play as a lone #9 target man, and some here want to make things even worse by bringing a luxury like Ozil in and increase his workload and force him to stay deeper even more as unlike Lingard, Ozil won't even tuck in and help out to allow Pogba to burst forward now and again. People are fooled by the fact Pogba can have good games in a 2 man midfield, of coruse he can, he's a VERY talented player, but if you want to see a consistent Pogba then you give him the maverick role in a 3 man midfield and as Scholes said you bring in the controller to do the role he's being asked to do, which is shackling him.
The thing is, I look at Fabregas at Chelsea under Mourinho, when playing in a deeper role, and my question is, is Fabregas much different to Pogba?
Maybe he is. I guess he's had a lot more experience in a two man midfield, and has a better understanding of the role. When to play short, when to play long, when to make runs, when to hold, when to slow down the game, when to quicken it up, etc.
Pogba, despite having a fantastic skill set, sometimes seems like he doesn't know how to play in a midfield two. He does a lot of running off the ball, when he should probably just sit and dictate the game, which I feel he has the ability to do, and has done so for us.
Going forward, though, I do agree with Scholes, and when the thread was made on 'What to do with Pogba', I said we should be looking to play him higher, as most people have said.
We purchased him because of the performances he was showing for Juventus. The performances that got him into the FIFPro World XI. That wasn't as a centre midfielder in a 4231. It was either as:
A left centre midfielder in a 352:
Goalkeeper
Centre Back Centre Back Centre Back
Holding Midfielder
Wing Back Centre Midfielder Pogba Wing Back
Striker Striker
A left centre midfielder in a 442 diamond:
Goalkeeper
Right Back Centre Back Centre Back Left Back
Holding Midfielder
Centre Midfielder Pogba
Attacking Midfielder
Striker Striker
A left midfielder in a 442:
Goalkeeper
Right Back Centre Back Centre Back Left Back
Right Midfielder Centre Midfielder Centre Midfielder Pogba
Striker Striker
This is why I don't understand why Jose persists on playing Pogba as a number 8 in a two man midfield. Don't get me wrong, he's not bad there. Arguably been our best outfield player, and will always create a moment of magic in a game, but I think we'd see that on a more consistent bases if he has a bit more license to roam, without making us vulnerable defensively.
Who would compliment Pogba?
At Juventus, because they had Pirlo as a holding midfielder, who controlled the game, they had to create a balance by putting in defence minded box to box player in a three, i.e. Khedira or Marchisio, with Pogba playing as the more advanced 8.
In Matic, because he's more of a ball winning holding midfielder, rather than a deep-lying playmaker, I'd say that if we were to go with a midfield three, we'd need a midfielder who can control the game, i.e. Modric, Kroos, Verratti, etc as our number 8.
If we get two midfielders, which is what Jose may have been alluding to the other day, then one should be a deep-lying playmaker, and one should be a playmaker. That way, we could change things up without disturbing our balance. For example:
Pogba Matic Playmaker
Or
Pogba DLP* Box to box
DLP - Deep-lying playmaker
It means we will always have someone in our midfield to get on the ball and dictate, whilst having the legs to not get overran.
Pogba
Matic
Herrera
Deep-lying playmaker
Playmaker
Pereira
Who could we get?
Deep-lying playmaker
Recently, we've been linked to Jorginho as a replacement for Carrick.
Not watched him before, but he's been likened to Carrick in the way he can control games from deep and is a great reader of the game.
Jorginho currently averages the second highest amount of passes per game (95.3) in Europe, with a pass success percentage of 90.2%. To me, that is the stats of someone dictates a game.
Defensively, he has averages 1.9 tackles per game and 1.4 interceptions.
Playmaker
Not a lot of players available at that moment in the mould of Modric, Thiago, Kroos, Verratti, etc. Someone who can dictate the tempo of a game.
However, Barcelona were meant to be after Jean Michael Seri, dubbed the 'African Xavi'.
This is what Xavi himself said about him.
"When I was told that a player from Nice was called the 'African Xavi', I followed him very closely," Xavi told Le Parisien. "I didn't know [Seri] and I was entranced.
"I'm not used to seeing such talent in midfield any more. The short game, long game, tactical intelligence, long-range shooting, personality, organisation of the play... Madre mia!
"He would do so well at Barca. He can play anywhere in the middle. He is fantastic. He has what they call the Barca DNA. No doubt."
Again, I've never watched him, but I heard quite a few things, and it's someone we should probably be tracking too, to be honest.
Seri averages the fourth highest amount of passes per game (88.1) with a pass success percentage of 90.5%. Again, stats would suggest that he's neat on the ball, and very rarely loses possession.
Not a safe player too, he averages 5.1 long balls per game and has an average pass length of 18.15M. To put that into perspective, De Bruyne's average pass length is 17.16M, Modric 18M, Thiago 18.56M and Pogba's 17.20M.
Creativity wise this season, he has averaged 2.3 key passes and made 2 assists.
I guess there's people out there who watch him on a weekly bases and don't think he's good enough. However, he's worth having a look at if he's getting that type of praise off Xavi.
That would leave us with a midfielder of (assuming Carrick retires and Fellaini leaves on a free):
Pogba
Matic
Seri
Jorginho
Herrera
Pereira
To me, that's a good balanced midfield.
Either way, I really do think Mourinho should rethink how to play Pogba. If that means moving away from his beloved 4231, then so be it.
Maybe he is. I guess he's had a lot more experience in a two man midfield, and has a better understanding of the role. When to play short, when to play long, when to make runs, when to hold, when to slow down the game, when to quicken it up, etc.
Pogba, despite having a fantastic skill set, sometimes seems like he doesn't know how to play in a midfield two. He does a lot of running off the ball, when he should probably just sit and dictate the game, which I feel he has the ability to do, and has done so for us.
Going forward, though, I do agree with Scholes, and when the thread was made on 'What to do with Pogba', I said we should be looking to play him higher, as most people have said.
We purchased him because of the performances he was showing for Juventus. The performances that got him into the FIFPro World XI. That wasn't as a centre midfielder in a 4231. It was either as:
A left centre midfielder in a 352:
Goalkeeper
Centre Back Centre Back Centre Back
Holding Midfielder
Wing Back Centre Midfielder Pogba Wing Back
Striker Striker
Goalkeeper
Right Back Centre Back Centre Back Left Back
Holding Midfielder
Centre Midfielder Pogba
Attacking Midfielder
Striker Striker
Goalkeeper
Right Back Centre Back Centre Back Left Back
Right Midfielder Centre Midfielder Centre Midfielder Pogba
Striker Striker
Who would compliment Pogba?
At Juventus, because they had Pirlo as a holding midfielder, who controlled the game, they had to create a balance by putting in defence minded box to box player in a three, i.e. Khedira or Marchisio, with Pogba playing as the more advanced 8.
In Matic, because he's more of a ball winning holding midfielder, rather than a deep-lying playmaker, I'd say that if we were to go with a midfield three, we'd need a midfielder who can control the game, i.e. Modric, Kroos, Verratti, etc as our number 8.
If we get two midfielders, which is what Jose may have been alluding to the other day, then one should be a deep-lying playmaker, and one should be a playmaker. That way, we could change things up without disturbing our balance. For example:
Pogba Matic Playmaker
Or
Pogba DLP* Box to box
DLP - Deep-lying playmaker
It means we will always have someone in our midfield to get on the ball and dictate, whilst having the legs to not get overran.
Pogba
Matic
Herrera
Deep-lying playmaker
Playmaker
Pereira
Who could we get?
Deep-lying playmaker
Recently, we've been linked to Jorginho as a replacement for Carrick.
Not watched him before, but he's been likened to Carrick in the way he can control games from deep and is a great reader of the game.
Jorginho currently averages the second highest amount of passes per game (95.3) in Europe, with a pass success percentage of 90.2%. To me, that is the stats of someone dictates a game.
Defensively, he has averages 1.9 tackles per game and 1.4 interceptions.
Playmaker
Not a lot of players available at that moment in the mould of Modric, Thiago, Kroos, Verratti, etc. Someone who can dictate the tempo of a game.
However, Barcelona were meant to be after Jean Michael Seri, dubbed the 'African Xavi'.
This is what Xavi himself said about him.
"When I was told that a player from Nice was called the 'African Xavi', I followed him very closely," Xavi told Le Parisien. "I didn't know [Seri] and I was entranced.
"I'm not used to seeing such talent in midfield any more. The short game, long game, tactical intelligence, long-range shooting, personality, organisation of the play... Madre mia!
"He would do so well at Barca. He can play anywhere in the middle. He is fantastic. He has what they call the Barca DNA. No doubt."
Again, I've never watched him, but I heard quite a few things, and it's someone we should probably be tracking too, to be honest.
Seri averages the fourth highest amount of passes per game (88.1) with a pass success percentage of 90.5%. Again, stats would suggest that he's neat on the ball, and very rarely loses possession.
Not a safe player too, he averages 5.1 long balls per game and has an average pass length of 18.15M. To put that into perspective, De Bruyne's average pass length is 17.16M, Modric 18M, Thiago 18.56M and Pogba's 17.20M.
Creativity wise this season, he has averaged 2.3 key passes and made 2 assists.
I guess there's people out there who watch him on a weekly bases and don't think he's good enough. However, he's worth having a look at if he's getting that type of praise off Xavi.
That would leave us with a midfielder of (assuming Carrick retires and Fellaini leaves on a free):
Pogba
Matic
Seri
Jorginho
Herrera
Pereira
To me, that's a good balanced midfield.
Either way, I really do think Mourinho should rethink how to play Pogba. If that means moving away from his beloved 4231, then so be it.
Yes playing Pogba alone side Matic deep against a very weakened Southampton team at home is indeed misusing him.
Source - GFFN
If not being played in his absolute favourite position, and 18 months after signing him I'm still not sure exactly what that is, is enough for him to put in performances like we saw at Tottnenham and Newcastle and want to leave then i'm not sure I'd want a player with that mentality to be here anyway.
He’s being misused by not being played in his best position and he’s also being mismanaged on a personal basis. Mouriniho is doing most things wrong though at the moment.
I repeat what I said on the other Pogba thread. If he is really saying these things after the way he has performed then he has to go, and quickly.
I think he is trouble, he was under Fergie, and he is now. He is mentally a little spoilt kid. If he was a world beater it still would not be worth the risk, but as clearly he isn't, its not worth a seconds thought. Get rid, quickly.
I think he is trouble, he was under Fergie, and he is now. He is mentally a little spoilt kid. If he was a world beater it still would not be worth the risk, but as clearly he isn't, its not worth a seconds thought. Get rid, quickly.
I genuinely can't see why people are all of a sudden so eager to get rid of the future of our football club. I understand player power is poisonous but everyone knows what Pogba is capable of, he knows himself for sure, and wanting to get rid immediately because he's being asked to do a job by the manager that he obviously isn't the best at doing is just ridiculous. He knows his worth and we aren't doing him a favour by having him here, he'd have his pick of clubs if he left us now, hell he probably did when he left Juventus and I can guarantee that unshackled from this stifling setup Mourinho has us playing under he'd be back to his old quality self in no time and we'll be once again left with egg on our face wonder what could of been and why couldn't we make it work, then Mourinho probably leaves in 2 seasons and we've got rid of one of our potentially best players.
Pogba cannot play in a 2 man midfield and Matic is burnt out already this season. We need a 3 man midfield to get the best from Pogba and our team but Mourinho is too stubborn to play it.
but kroos is not the type of player to dictate play, Modric is.
Why are so many people giving a pass to Pogba? Has playing in a midfield two somehow before an impossible task in modern day football?
What does Pogba himself want? Well, unless he suddenly decided he wants just a free role with little to no defending it sounds like he wants to be a truly exceptional all-round (box to box) midfielder:
So is the tune different now? Because I can't recall the last time this kid last put in a true tackle. And that's honestly fine. Maybe he is deciding he wants to just focus on attacking. But is he somehow incapable of the discipline and technical ability to play another midfield role?
No. It's his mentality. Wherever you play him he should be excellent.
I included the question about headers in there. Look at Pogba's reasoning . That answer is shocking and says it all.
Toughen the feck up Paul, you have everything to be one of the greatest players of this generation... Except for more grit .maybe Alexis will impart some of that to him.
What does Pogba himself want? Well, unless he suddenly decided he wants just a free role with little to no defending it sounds like he wants to be a truly exceptional all-round (box to box) midfielder:
http://www.espn.com/soccer/club/fra...pean-championships-and-his-future-at-juventus
So is the tune different now? Because I can't recall the last time this kid last put in a true tackle. And that's honestly fine. Maybe he is deciding he wants to just focus on attacking. But is he somehow incapable of the discipline and technical ability to play another midfield role?
No. It's his mentality. Wherever you play him he should be excellent.
I included the question about headers in there. Look at Pogba's reasoning . That answer is shocking and says it all.
Toughen the feck up Paul, you have everything to be one of the greatest players of this generation... Except for more grit .maybe Alexis will impart some of that to him.
Would you really want to see him gone just like that?
Pogba wasn't trouble under Ferguson. You've wilfully invented fiction there.
The suggestion that he's spoiled is predominantly based upon a hairstyle, tricks and flicks and - for some people, knowingly or not - the colour of his skin.
The agent didn't 'just appear', Pogba changed agents quite deliberately. It suited his purposes. He threw his toys out of his pram when he wasn't picked by Fergie, who preferred to bring Scholes out of retirement. He was a spoilt baby then , and he still is.
The racist card? Give me a break, how do you know what colour I am?
Yes
Pogba chose to go to Italy, play lots of games and eventually win major trophies. That isn't throwing "toys out of a pram", rather a career move that was overwhelmingly justified thereafter. He chose to come back here for (hopefully) similar success.
I don't care what colour you are. My point had nothing to do with that. The point I made is a fair and obvious one - in that black sportspeople (compared to white people). are often accused of having "attitude" or being "spoiled". I think the colour of their skin can, subconsciously or not, influence this sort of thinking. Memphis Depay being labelled some sort of "wannabe gangster" with a terrible attitude being a more recent example.
As I say, Pogba tries lots of skills and has a funny haircut. Why else might he be "spoiled"?