Is Pogba being misused by Mourinho ?

[laughtersassassin]

Pogba has had more great games than bad this season. Most of this is a case of recency bias. Hell, i still am positive he was injured versus Newcastle.


Also everyone is acting like POgba is our biggest problem. Not even close. Watch the CL games. All the best teams play with a clear identity. Most attacking however not all. Look at Juve and I think you see how Jose envisions we play or similar enough.


Our true problem is we put out a team and you just don't know what you will get. We have no clear strategy that we play with. Rely on individual brilliance. Usually Pogbas.

It is not a reliable way of playing at all. We really should have honed in on our style by now. It looked at the start of the season we had. A deadly counter-attacking force but that completely died once Pogbas injury and never returned.


Basically, the team is being misused or instructed by Jose but no i do not want him to be sacked as long as we make top 4.

COme fifth though and imo he hasn't met the minimum requirement for the season. Lots of problems, still a concerning time as a United fan. Not sure any of us have seen the progress we had hoped and expected.

 

[adexkola]

I don't think Mourinho is misusing Pogba.

It would be a waste of Pogba's talents to insist that he play only in a certain position in a 4-3-3. With the proper coaching he can be much better, capable of dominating affairs at both ends of the pitch. It will take time. Remember how everyone lambasted Guardiola for playing De Bruyne so deep last season? They are reaping the benefits this season.

I think Mourinho has a clear vision for Pogba, and is willing to work through teething pains to get Pogba to that point. I'm willing to give them time to get there.

With Pogba, lack of form is excusable. Not giving 100% on the pitch isn't. He needs to learn to be more effective even when conditions aren't optimal. Cover for the runs of other players. Keep the ball moving. Keep things simple until you have the opportunity to attempt the spectacular.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Question is it actually good for the team though? Results and performances suggest otherwise on the whole.

They do? Where's your evidence for that?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

As someone else posted, Pogba has said he wants to be that all rounder too. Which to me shows a lack of awareness, he might think he can do everything but he evidently can't be disciplined in his play or be a reliable goalscorer.

The thing is, he's shown plenty of glimpses of becoming that player. That's what's so frustrating. He's got all the tools. He just needs to work a bit harder and play a bit smarter. And he has managed to do that in plenty of games already. The next step for him is doing it in the really difficult fixtures, as well as ironing out the Newcastle type performances against weaker teams.

 

[Revaulx]

Good post. Like someone posted a video where some guy said fans want Pogba to control the game like Busquets, create like Ozil/KdB, work defensively like Kante. It's impossible.

Pogba has said that it's his ambition to do just that.

Right now fans would overlook his inability to do two of these things if he just put the effort in on one of them.

 

[roonster09]

Pogba has said that it's his ambition to do just that.

Right now fans would overlook his inability to do two of these things if he just put the effort in on one of them.

So what? He can't do that anyways with so much defensive responsibility as IIRC he also talking about scoring goals which is very hard to do from midfield 2 position.

 

[JPRouve]

Pogba has said that it's his ambition to do just that.

Right now fans would overlook his inability to do two of these things if he just put the effort in on one of them.

There is a difference between being an all action player like prime Vidal and actually doing all the roles at the same time, at his best someone like Vidal had a combination of Pirlo, Marchisio and Pogba next to him, he was never in a situation where Juventus actually needed him to be the primary player in all of these roles. Also unlike Pogba, Vidal was actually a very good specialist in all of these roles.

 

[Andrew~]

He presumably hopes(ed) to transform him into an all-round #8, able to attack and defend with equal ability, playing as one of the deep-lying midfield two in his preferred 4-2-3-1 system. If that doesn't work out, he'll be flogged to PSG/Madrid/whoever for similar money to that which we originally paid for him.

Sure. My point is you can't spend a world record transfer fee on hopes. You break a world record transfer fee on the strengths the player is already showing you not on what might or might not happen. So either way, it's on him.

And it's not like Pogba is the only player who he's attempting to turn into what they are not: he paid 70 something million for Lukaku and is playing him as a target man when he's not that; he bought Mkhytarian and failed to make him function in his system; he's trying to turn Martial, Rashford and Mata into wingers unsuccessfully.

Maybe United just need to flog the whole team then, cos doesn't seem like anyone is working out (apart from Lingard).

 

[Thisistheone]

If I understood Jose correctly just now, he said we played a midfield 3 vs Newcastle.

Pogba--Lingard
-----Matic

If so then Pogba is being played in his prefered position, the left, or 8 in a midfield. But Lingard played like a forward and Paul played like he wasn't fit?

 

[tony54]

Now, I've just read that Pogba is unhappy with things as they are and may move in the summer.
It would be a shame to lose him but I think there are two factors at play here. One is that Pogba is immature in many ways and too self opinionated and secondly we have Mourino who has not pampered to Pogbas idea of where and how he should be played. Mourino perhaps should have bought another Matic stile defender, should have been bought 5 years ago, so that Pogba could have played in his preferred position. But, maybe Mourino thought Fellaini or Herrera could have played along side Matic but that hasn't worked out due to injury and lapse in performance.
I'm of the opinion that Pogba is another Dia Maria type misfit/mismanaged player and has decided to pull his dummy out because he thinks he is bigger than the club. He can be a good player, not great, but I think his present attitude can be very ruinous for the club and unless he is the centre of attention seems to go into sulks

 

[Raees]

If I understood Jose correctly just now, he said we played a midfield 3 vs Newcastle.

Pogba--Lingard
-----Matic

If so then Pogba is being played in his prefered position, the left, or 8 in a midfield. But Lingard played like a forward and Paul played like he wasn't fit?

Jose can dress it up any way he wants but if he thinks that is a proper three man midfield and that tactically it is do different to say Juve's three man midfield, or Barca's or Reals with Kroos, Modric and Casemeiro.. he is absolutely off his rocker and messing up tactically.

You can't be telling me that midfield three in any way resembles his midfield three that he used at Chelsea. He's bullshitting more than the media.

 

[Thisistheone]

Jose can dress it up any way he wants but if he thinks that is a proper three man midfield and that tactically it is do different to say Juve's three man midfield, or Barca's or Reals with Kroos, Modric and Casemeiro.. he is absolutely off his rocker and messing up tactically.

You can't be telling me that midfield three in any way resembles his midfield three that he used at Chelsea. He's bullshitting more than the media.

Just sounds crazy to me. Lingard is no midfielder & the balance is all wrong.

We're a team that doesn't specialize in possesion. We lose the ball and our midfield is exposed.

Is Mourinho trying too hard to play the Utd way by crambing in an extra offensive player (Lingard) when he's traditionally played a much more solid midfield unit wherever he's been before?

 

[Raees]

Just sounds crazy to me. Lingard is no midfielder & the balance is all wrong.

We're a team that doesn't specialize in possesion. We lose the ball and our midfield is exposed.

Is Mourinho trying too hard to play the Utd way by crambing in an extra offensive player (Lingard) when he's traditionally played a much more solid midfield unit wherever he's been before?

Possibly but the more controversial explanation is that he see's the 4231 as his baby, his counter-point to the 4-3-3 which has been made famous by Barca and thus is loathe to returning to it.

Ever since his rivalry with Pep started circa 2008 onwards, he has drifted further and further away from having to use it on a regular basis and in this instance, he seems very reluctant to go to a 4-3-3 even though it suits our most talented players (Sanchez, Pogba and Martial).

It is abit silly really because Jose has shown form for producing cracking world class 4-3-3's in his own mould.

 

[Cliche Guevara]

Jose can dress it up any way he wants but if he thinks that is a proper three man midfield and that tactically it is do different to say Juve's three man midfield, or Barca's or Reals with Kroos, Modric and Casemeiro.. he is absolutely off his rocker and messing up tactically.

You can't be telling me that midfield three in any way resembles his midfield three that he used at Chelsea. He's bullshitting more than the media.

It doesn’t matter though and I, for one, am getting sick of hearing stuff like this.

People are chopping and changing between Pogba playing in the preferred position and team dynamics to suit their agenda.

It doesn’t matter how well Lingard can do a job or not. It doesn’t affect Pogba’s ability on or off the ball.

It’s not like Pogba is playing great but the team is suffering tactically. Pogba has been shit recently in a three man midfield.

 

[Raees]

It doesn’t matter though and I, for one, am getting sick of hearing stuff like this.

People are chopping and changing between Pogba playing in the preferred position and team dynamics.

It doesn’t matter how well Lingard can do a job or not. It doesn’t affect Pogba’s ability on or off the ball.

It’s not like Pogba is playing great but the team is suffering tactically. Pogba has been shit recently in a three man midfield.

It absolutely does. Does it excuse Pogba's lack of effort - hell no. Does it have a tangible effect on what he has to do on and off the ball - yes it does as it affects the ratio of how much attacking responsibilities he has to carry out versus how much defending he has to carry out.

His last performance in a three was Everton by the way, so where did you pull that comment out from?

 

[Camilo]

It looked at the start of the season we had. A deadly counter-attacking force but that completely died once Pogbas injury and never returned.

The problem with any counter attacking system is that it relies upon the opposition playing a certain way. It used to work when teams were less disciplined any many smaller teams came into big games with a "have a go" attitude, but nowadays things are far more tactically sussed.

I agree we have zero identity or obvious play style, but the counter attack system can't be an answer. It's not a long term way of playing. We might win something with it, but we could also finish 6th.

Pogba might well be misused by Mourinho - I think he would be more comfortable in a midfield 3 - but also if we played like a big team should, pushed up, tight, pressing, being proactive, the spaces Pogba isn't covering, and Matic is having to cover, simply wouldn't exist. Jose needs to find a way, change if he has to, and get us playing.

 

[Kag]

Now, I've just read that Pogba is unhappy with things as they are and may move in the summer.
It would be a shame to lose him but I think there are two factors at play here. One is that Pogba is immature in many ways and too self opinionated and secondly we have Mourino who has not pampered to Pogbas idea of where and how he should be played. Mourino perhaps should have bought another Matic stile defender, should have been bought 5 years ago, so that Pogba could have played in his preferred position. But, maybe Mourino thought Fellaini or Herrera could have played along side Matic but that hasn't worked out due to injury and lapse in performance.
I'm of the opinion that Pogba is another Dia Maria type misfit/mismanaged player and has decided to pull his dummy out because he thinks he is bigger than the club. He can be a good player, not great, but I think his present attitude can be very ruinous for the club and unless he is the centre of attention seems to go into sulks

Where is the evidence that Pogba is too self-opinionated? Or that he has a ruinous attitude? When has he went into a sulk?

I think some of the accusations directed at Pogba range from unfair to nasty to dangerous.

 

[Cliche Guevara]

It absolutely does. Does it excuse Pogba's lack of effort - hell no. Does it have a tangible effect on what he has to do on and off the ball - yes it does as it affects the ratio of how much attacking responsibilities he has to carry out versus how much defending he has to carry out.

His last performance in a three was Everton by the way, so where did you pull that comment out from?

Yes but Pogba wasn’t doing anything different so it can’t be used as an excuse.

He’s played in a three his last two games. Clearly. You mentioned it yourself.

 

[Raees]

Yes but Pogba wasn’t doing anything different so it can’t be used as an excuse.

He’s played in a three his last two games. Clearly. You mentioned it yourself.

Against Spurs and Newcastle he was playing in a three? when have I claimed that?

 

[kps88]

Jose himself said Pogba knows he's not playing well. Playing with an out of position Lingard isn't a good enough excuse for the sort of performance levels he's put in recently.

 

[Turkleton]

I think with a two man midfield there are two ways it can work.

1. When one goes forward, the other should too (to a degree) and the defense pushes up to reduce space. This would be good for Pogba but I don't think Matic has the mobility and I don't think our defence is allowed to take a high line.

2. You have two guys who sit back to protect the defence who aren't going to push forward so much. This looks more like what Mourinho wants. Carrick would be the perfect partner for Matic playing like this. Asking Pogba to do this is a waste of his running and dribbling ability. Also he does not have the discipline to ignore his attacking instincts or the positional sense in defensive situations.

What we're doing at the moment is an uncoordinated mix of these and it isn't working. Our attack is blunt without him and the defence is fragile (for Mourinho) without two protectors so Pogba is expected to do everything without getting caught out of position then getting blamed when it goes wrong.

The obvious solution is to play a 433 with Pogba in his preferred position but we're a bit light on options if Herrera is unavailable. The next best if the manager wants to keep 4231 is to put Pogba in one if the attacking midfield positions. Have Carrick (if fit) or Blind partner Matic to protect and distribute. Pogba has the energy to support the two but without the expectation of him being there constantly.

Pogba has played poorly recently and I believe a large part of this is psychological. Freeing him up to play the football he enjoys could help turn that around for him and improve the team.

Yes Pogba is being misused by Mourinho because he is expecting the world from Pogba without giving him the correct environment for that to happen.

 

[Smores]

I think the biggest issue from the press conference is that it alluded to Pogba playing through injury and pain. Would explain his performances somewhat.

 

[Cassidy]

I think the biggest issue from the press conference is that it alluded to Pogba playing through injury and pain. Would explain his performances somewhat.

Did it?

 

[Smores]

Did it?

Maybe not actually just don't see why else he'd bring up the seriousness of Pogba's previous lay off

 

[Cassidy]

Maybe not actually just don't see why else he'd bring up the seriousness of Pogba's previous lay off

I think he was emphasising how badly we miss him when hes either injured or off form. And also how good he has been most of the season

 

[Thisistheone]

Possibly but the more controversial explanation is that he see's the 4231 as his baby, his counter-point to the 4-3-3 which has been made famous by Barca and thus is loathe to returning to it.

Ever since his rivalry with Pep started circa 2008 onwards, he has drifted further and further away from having to use it on a regular basis and in this instance, he seems very reluctant to go to a 4-3-3 even though it suits our most talented players (Sanchez, Pogba and Martial).

It is abit silly really because Jose has shown form for producing cracking world class 4-3-3's in his own mould.

Yeah I read a long article about all that by Jonathan Wilson and it was quite convincing tbh. Which is a worry because like you say Jose has played some superb 433's.

I'm praying he doesn't carry on with this for the rest of the season. We need something like his Chelsea 3 of Makelele--Essien--Lampard. (which hopefully will come in the summer) I'd rather McTominay in there instead of Lingard just for the balance.

 

[freeurmind]

We need Herrera to come in for Lingard i that right central midfield position. Lingard's form has gone into the toilet since he had that purple patch a few weeks ago. Pogba is fine, the entire team hasn't been playing well but for some reason Paul gets the brunt of the criticism.

 

[Oldyella]

We need Herrera to come in for Lingard i that right central midfield position. Lingard's form has gone into the toilet since he had that purple patch a few weeks ago. Pogba is fine, the entire team hasn't been playing well but for some reason Paul gets the brunt of the criticism.

Agreed, but I would go for McTominay. Disciplined and keeps his passing simple and ticking us over but still has the engine to press if needed. Pogba has been getting the brunt of criticism, but he is our main man, thats how it tends to work, fairly or not.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Craig Bellamy.

"This is good for Pogba because he has had a lot of praise, and rightly so, but sometimes as a player you need this as well," the former Liverpool and Wales forward told The Debate.

"He will know more than us why it is not going well and he will know for a fact that it is not going the way he wants it. But it is part of football as well, and it will be part of his development.

"And he will come through this period a stronger player.

"But I am conscious of the fact that this guy has been injured for two and a bit months during a season when he was playing brilliantly.

"It is very difficult to get back to that level during the season when the games just keep coming round. It is going to take time to get his rhythm back, a good seven to eight games, and he is still in that period.

"And the next three or four weeks, I expect him to be playing really well."

Steve McClaren.

"Signing Pogba, he knew this is not going to be plain sailing, this will not be an ultra-disciplined player. You can see that in the way he plays, he is a bit of a free spirit," said the former United and England coach.

"But he is trying to rein that in for the good of the team and he will be as patient as possible. He will put his arm round him, but he will also hit him and say 'I have the power to put you on the bench and not play you'. Players do not like that.

"But believe you me, Monday to Friday he will be with him, he will have him in his office and on the training ground, other coaches will be working with him. And he will have him back to what he was before and even better."

http://www.skysports.com/football/n...k-stronger-after-criticism-says-craig-bellamy

For once, the press actually reported something positive, and an unexpected supporting comments by C. Bellamy. Wow.

 

[Seij]

If I understood Jose correctly just now, he said we played a midfield 3 vs Newcastle.

Pogba--Lingard
-----Matic

If so then Pogba is being played in his prefered position, the left, or 8 in a midfield. But Lingard played like a forward and Paul played like he wasn't fit?

Lingard likes to play in pretty advanced positions to try scoring and Matic is not able to play effectively as the only player to shield the defenders, so that limits Pogba's freedom to go forward. I'd like Mourinho to give a run of games to an actual midfield 3. By that I don't mean playing Herrera for a game or two then dropping him.

 

[Loon]

I genuinely think Mourinho doesn't have a midfielder he trusts to release Pogba rather than misusing him. Seemingly Matic was supposed to supply part of the solution, and it would appear he's trying to get McTominay up to speed, but as yet it's clear Mourinho wants a third midfielder because nobody in the squad is up to it.

 

[Revaulx]

Bellamy may be a cnut but he's no idiot.

 

[tony54]

Bellamy may be a cnut but he's no idiot.

1.And, he does a lot of good work for charity even donating wads of cash into projects.
2, I agree that Pogba may still have a niggle or is still not match fit so it's watch this space but
surely if he has niggle he would speak up. Going forward hopefully we can pull out some good games in the Euros and FA cup
and having Rojo and Bailly fit is a bonus.

 

[Adam Jama]

He is a top quality player no doubt about it. Both are a bit to blame, Mourinho needs to set him free.

There was a similar argument when Benitez put Gerrard on the right and as a number 10; but that is where he played his best football when Alonso and Mascherano/Sissoko were behind him. Pogba has enough talent to build a team around, but he lacks discipline and you really need to put him in the right system to get the best out of him.

 

[desmondisback]

This seems to me to be an extraordinarily simple problem with an even easier way for Jose to fix it.

1) Accept that when buying Pogba you bought someone that thrives in a certain position and also recognise he is a bit of a free spirit. He ain't gonna be happy out of position.

2) Look at what made him play well at Juve and replicate it as much as possible. Re-create those conditions and situations on the pitch.

3) Stop trying to fit him into your system but instead adapt your system to fit around him. He's a great player , build a team around him. Adapt , be flexible.

4) If you can't do 1,2,3 then sell him and admit you bought a free running fullback and tried to play him in the scrum. Or resign yourself as manager.


(NB - his inflexibility means that 6) we will get what we are currently getting. A fudge. A sulky player and an obtuse manager )

"Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated" Confucius

 

[redIndianDevil]

The problem isn't that he can't play as a midfielder, more that he won't. And thats's a problem.

It's not the first time we've had a situation where a player feels he should play a certain position, but the manager disagrees.

Welbeck, Kagawa, Herrera and Rooney to name a few. They all wanted to play in a niche role, but the fact is if they had applied themselves, then they would have learned to play in certain roles, learned to strengthen those weak parts of their game, and become a better player. Herrera to his credit has adapted to playing a deeper role, and worked on his weaknesses. I'm not buying this 'I'm too good to play position X or Y, so i'm not going to bother learning it'.

Pogba has all the attributes to play a deeper role, the only thing stopping him is his own ego. You don't want players like that, players who'll only play in one formation, one system. You want players who are prepared to sacrifice bits of their game to help the team. When you have as many quality players as we do, you can't build a team around just one.. And that's our problem at the minute - too many egos putting their own glory ahead of pulling together as a team.

So basically you want the Youngs, Obi Mikels and Valencias of football to play at United not Pogbas, Hazards and Messis of football.

 

[Adam Jama]

This seems to me to be an extraordinarily simple problem with an even easier way for Jose to fix it.

1) Accept that when buying Pogba you bought someone that thrives in a certain position and also recognise he is a bit of a free spirit. He ain't gonna be happy out of position.

2) Look at what made him play well at Juve and replicate it as much as possible. Re-create those conditions and situations on the pitch.

3) Stop trying to fit him into your system but instead adapt your system to fit around him. He's a great player , build a team around him. Adapt , be flexible.

4) If you can't do 1,2,3 then sell him and admit you bought a free running fullback and tried to play him in the scrum. Or resign yourself as manager.


(NB - his inflexibility means that 6) we will get what we are currently getting. A fudge. A sulky player and an obtuse manager )

"Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated" Confucius

He is good enough to build a team around! Those others were not!

 

[desmondisback]

A lazy and heartless creative player is lazy and heartless at the end of the day. Creativity and talent is never enough by itself. This is what's wrong with the world and especially the younger generations these days. They want things to be handed to them on a platter. Work for it or you don't deserve it.

I agree with your philosophy but Jose bought him! He either knew what he was getting or didn't. If he didn't then he's incompetent because a big part of a managers job is to assess the character of the player he is buying. If he did know what he was getting then he would have known that he was likely to become dissatisfied if he was not allowed to attack like he did at Juve? Therefore he should not have bought him if he wasn't prepared to adapt his tactics to get the best out of him. Or maybe Jose isn't astute enough to work this out?

Whichever way you cut it there's been a misjudgement by Jose. We can't blame Pogba because he is who he is. He might be a petulant arrogant guy who can't handle hard work or Jose could just be arrogant and stubborn also for not adapting to his star player. Or both. If you employ a free spirited Van Gogh who has been lighting up the art world with his latest murals and then ask him to come and paint your garden shed green then don't moan if he gets bored and dissatisfied and wonders what the hell you employed him for.

I tell you one thing for sure , fans of our rivals probably love it that Jose puts the shackles on Pogba because it makes us a worse team. Liverpool fans probably love it! And that should stick in our throats big time.

The problem is that the majority of responsibility lies with Jose not Pogba because.....erm.....I think the last time I looked he is the manager? He's mis-managing our most expensive player ever. It's slowly becoming a shambles and if it does he should go. Jose that is.

 

[desmondisback]

I'd also say that this problem extends beyond Pogba. I mean, how many players in this team can we honestly say that Mourinho is consistently getting the best out of? That's quite damning when you think about it.

Yes. But we must always remember that Jose cannot be judged by the same standards as other managers , because he has his "reputation" and he is the "special one". But if what you say is true and the Pogba fiasco continues then I will judge him on now and not the past.

His reputation means sweet FA to me. If he can't figure out and get it into his obtuse brain that he needs to have a re-think on Pogba then he's no better than some Sunday league coach for me.

 

[Jaybomb]

He should play Pogba in the number 10 role. Right behind Lukaku. He’s perfect for it.