Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[adexkola]

I think the Saudis had it wrong when they dragged Khashoggi into that embassy to dismember him.

They would have gotten less flack if they had simply bombed the embassy while he was there

 

[RedDevil@84]

Ethnic cleansing happens, its bad, its happened to the Palestinian people a bunch of times, but it's still the best option in this case

If all the victim countries would just rollover and die, then all major wars can be averted.

 

[Idxomer]

"Ethnic cleansing happens, its bad, its happened to the Palestinian people a bunch of times, but it's still the best option in this case"

Did someone here actually post that? Not sure how some of this shit is allowed in here but it is kind of expected.

 

[WeePat]

Did someone here actually post that? Not sure how some of this shit is allowed in here but it is kind of expected.

Kinda, yeah.

So for me, there's no better even slightly realistic option. Ethnic cleansing happens, its bad, its happened to the Palestinian people a bunch of times, but it's still the best option in this case. The alternatives are a cycle of violence and death. Do you seen another realistic path out of this?

 

[RedDevil@84]

Did someone here actually post that? Not sure how some of this shit is allowed in here but it is kind of expected.

If somebody had talked like that about Ukraine in the other thread, they would have got perma-banned.

 

[JPRouve]

Kinda, yeah.

And it's the nice version:

My most extreme view is that they should do a Kuwait at this point, and just get rid of them. Which is indeed a war crime, but it's more humane than this.

 

[owlo]

Nice how you’re all piling on, but your preferred solution is just to let a whole load of people die, because you can offer no other option. I specifically said it as a suggestion in the context of there being no other even remotely realistic path out of this mess.

Who has a better vaguely realistic option?

 

[Idxomer]

Kinda, yeah.

And it's the nice version:

Thanks for quoting these posts. It seems that calls for ethnic cleansing are okay around here. Maybe it's better for others that way seeing the masks off not that they were ever on really.

 

[Raoul]

Nice how you’re all piling on, but your preferred solution is just to let a whole load of people die, because you can offer no other option. I specifically said it as a suggestion in the context of there being no other even remotely realistic path out of this mess.

Who has a better vaguely realistic option?

No one does, because most realistic options involve Israeli military action inside Gaza.

One interesting aspect of this is that the Israeli government seem to be of the opinion that most of Hamas' best fighters were used and killed on 10.7, and the ones they are running into in Gaza are mostly their "b-team" fighters. This is according to Barak Ravid's sources inside the government (he is one of the most dialed in journos in terms of senior Israeli sources imo).

 

[owlo]

Kinda, yeah.

You missed out the bit where I said it would have been better if it was left to the Palestinians in the first place, and if I had a magic wand the best option would be to move Israel/the Jews to Alberta or texas or something. You’re generally a good poster so I’ll take it in good faith, rather than you’re trying to stoke hatred over a discussion.

Both sides cannot live there without death and suffering, that much is clear.

 

[WeePat]

Nice how you’re all piling on, but your preferred solution is just to let a whole load of people die, because you can offer no other option. I specifically said it as a suggestion in the context of there being no other even remotely realistic path out of this mess.

Who has a better vaguely realistic option?

Who’s piling on? I’m certainly not. Someone asked if someone actually said what you said and I showed you him your words.

Also I don’t think you can say something as abhorrent as that and expect people not have strong feelings about it.

Imagine if someone said the same about Israel? Would that feel like a humane suggestion to you?

 

[WeePat]

You missed out the bit where I said it would have been better if it was left to the Palestinians in the first place, and if I had a magic wand the best option would be to move Israel/the Jews to Alberta or texas or something. You’re generally a good poster so I’ll take it in good faith, rather than you’re trying to stoke hatred over a discussion.

Both sides cannot live there without death and suffering, that much is clear.

I did crop that bit out because someone specifically asked if you said the bit about ethnic cleansing being bad but it happens. I don’t think the bit I left out makes the ethnic cleansing take any better, if I’m being honest.

 

[owlo]

No one does, because most realistic options involve Israeli military action inside Gaza.

One interesting aspect of this is that the Israeli government seem to be of the opinion that most of Hamas' best fighters were used and killed on 10.7, and the ones they are running into in Gaza are mostly their "b-team" fighters. This is according to Barak Ravid's sources inside the government (he is one of the most dialed in journos in terms of senior Israeli sources imo).

Exactly. It’s damned if you do and damned if you don’t at this point. It’s depressing but I see no path to peace except maybe wiping out hamas and then a few years of respite while they reorganise.

I do wonder what’s going on; in theory it should be carnage unless what you say is true, so I suspect it is. Agree on Barak Ravid. I suspect that they didn’t expect the level of success they attained on the 7th, so did not expect this response, and their common fighters have not been prepared for urban warfare/insurgency and a lack of preparation. It also ties into the idea that this is probably a hamas thing not an Iran thing. (The iranians knew after 9/11 to play nicely too)

Who’s piling on? I’m certainly not. Someone asked if someone actually said what you said and I showed you him your words.

Also I don’t think you can say something as abhorrent as that and expect people not have strong feelings about it.

Imagine if someone said the same about Israel? Would that feel like a humane suggestion to you?

I literally did say the same about Israel, in a post quoted to you in this very discussion. I said, if I could move them I would.
How is that any different from saying the Palestinians should move?

Do you think both sides can live there peacefully? Do you think it’s less preferable to thousands dying? How is it abhorrent to prefer people don’t die?

 

[That_Bloke]

Nice how you’re all piling on, but your preferred solution is just to let a whole load of people die, because you can offer no other option. I specifically said it as a suggestion in the context of there being no other even remotely realistic path out of this mess.

Who has a better vaguely realistic option?

I appreciate your contributions, but you had it coming. I'm actually surprised that not more posters called you out on it.

You just can't advocate for ethnic cleansing and there's no way (sane) people would go along with it. All of it under the false pretense of that Israel would never know peace even with an Palestinian State at its borders.

It's an abhorrent reasoning born out of fear, if not hatred, and an attempt at normalizing and downplaying what can be considered as a crime against humanity, for "humanitarian" reasons. The same would be true if someone pushed for the Israelis to be moved from there. Guess what, people aren't falling for it.

I've seen this kind of argument popping up more often elsewhere and most of the people being absolutely unmoved. That truly worries me.

 

[Beans]

I appreciate your contributions, but you had it coming. I'm actually surprised that not more posters called you out on it.

You just can't advocate for ethnic cleansing and there's no way (sane) people would go along with it. All of it under the false pretense of that Israel would never know peace even with an Palestinian State at its borders.

It's an abhorrent reasoning born out of fear, if not hatred, and an attempt at normalizing and downplaying what can be considered as a crime against humanity, for "humanitarian" reasons. Guess what, people aren't falling for it.

I've seen this kind of argument popping up more often elsewhere and most of the people being absolutely unmoved. That truly worries me.

Well said.

Wouldn't this be a good case for the UN to intervene? Help Israel destroy Hamas without wholesale slaughter of civilians?

 

[owlo]

I appreciate your contributions, but you had it coming. I'm actually surprised that not more posters called you out on it.

You just can't advocate for ethnic cleansing and there's no way (sane) people would go along with it. All of it under the false pretense of that Israel would never know peace even with an Palestinian State at its borders.

It's an abhorrent reasoning born out of fear, if not hatred, and an attempt at normalizing and downplaying what can be considered as a crime against humanity, for "humanitarian" reasons. Guess what, people aren't falling for it.

I've seen this kind of argument popping up more often elsewhere and most of the people being absolutely unmoved. That truly worries me.

It’s not a false pretence though is it? It’s a reality that a Palestinian state will not happen now, and not for decades from now. There’s no path to a Palestinian state at this time. And there’s no path to peace between Israel and the Palestinians. That’s without the whole consideration that they are both geopolitical pawns and external influences will always foster hatred.

I just don’t see any other way out of this without a whole bunch of suffering. And it’s not fear or hatred, I also mentioned that Israel should pay reparations as they are the oppressor here and that a good home should be found to make them a state.

I believe @Murder on Zidane's Floor shares a similar view on it as it’s completely hopeless there and we certainly don’t post from the same perspective on the conflict.

Here and now, what better option do you see for the Palestinians to live a better life?

 

[Roane]

No one does, because most realistic options involve Israeli military action inside Gaza.

One interesting aspect of this is that the Israeli government seem to be of the opinion that most of Hamas' best fighters were used and killed on 10.7, and the ones they are running into in Gaza are mostly their "b-team" fighters. This is according to Barak Ravid's sources inside the government (he is one of the most dialed in journos in terms of senior Israeli sources imo).

We literally have an example in the Bosnian war on how to end this.

 

[Sir Matt]

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This thread about the guidelines used to decide what level civilian casualties are "acceptable" was interesting and insane. It seems Israel has removed all restrictions on the acceptable number of civilians killed in a strike.

 

[space]

The sheer audacity to say ethnic cleansing is the best option for the Palestinians, but to try and take a 'both sides' approach by saying "well if it could happen to Israel I'd be for that too". After all the pro Israel stuff posted by him, somehow I find that hard to believe.. This guy.. trying to make it sound like forcibly removing all the Palestinians is the best option for them

How about you know, for some ideas, Israel stop bombing the shit out of them, give them back all their land in the west bank that's been stolen over the last 10 years as a start, build a gigantic fecking wall so one can get past, give Gaza back their borders and the ability to import goods so they can build a functional society, maybe import a UN peacekeeping force, maybe make a mutually beneficial deal with large penalties for violence, or about a million other ideas anyone with half a brain could come up with

But no. Let me try gaslight the world into thinking either getting bombed to shit or packed off into some land no one wants them to go to is the best option for them. I think that's GG for me with this thread, I'm putting it on ignore because how shit like that can actually be posted in here and be accepted as part of a discussion is beyond me

The world is totally lost.

 

[WeePat]

I literally did say the same about Israel, in a post quoted to you in this very discussion. I said, if I could move them I would.
How is that any different from saying the Palestinians should move?

Do you think both sides can live there peacefully? Do you think it’s less preferable to thousands dying? How is it abhorrent to prefer people don’t die?

But in your scenario thousands will continue to die, because there’s little to no chance they’ll all leave their land willingly. What you are suggesting is not realistic. They’ll fight and more will die. How do you propose you achieve this humane ethnic cleansing without murdering them all? Unless you’re saying [insert unprecedented crazy number] of Palestinian deaths now to push them out of their lands once and for all is better than a continuous flow of conflicts every couple of years.

 

[Roane]

It’s not a false pretence though is it? It’s a reality that a Palestinian state will not happen now, and not for decades from now. There’s no path to a Palestinian state at this time. And there’s no path to peace between Israel and the Palestinians. That’s without the whole consideration that they are both geopolitical pawns and external influences will always foster hatred.

I just don’t see any other way out of this without a whole bunch of suffering. And it’s not fear or hatred, I also mentioned that Israel should pay reparations as they are the oppressor here and that a good home should be found to make them a state.

I believe @Murder on Zidane's Floor shares a similar view on it as it’s completely hopeless there and we certainly don’t post from the same perspective on the conflict.

Here and now, what better option do you see for the Palestinians to live a better life?

Sorry but this is BS.

This whole situation is the easiest to solve of there was a will. Forget the Israelis and Palestine. This could be done over the weekend with America taking a leadership role and focussed on resolving it once and for all. Fairly.

Worst conflicts have been resolved over the years. From my own lifetime Bosnia is one.

Israel has never been "safer" in its history. Hamas are a blimp of its own making and none entities if their was a will by the "big dog".

Let me quantify that by saying by safer I mean virtually every country that is a credible threat trades and accepts Israel. Yes the odd one may do so "secretively" but it is what it is. We are not in 1948 - about the 70's.

The only one who is in it for more land grab and doesn't see peace as a way forward for its plans is Israel. But USA holds that leash.

With backing from Britain, Europe and USA no one dares attack Israel. Not Iran, not Saudi, not Turkey basically no one.

USA steps in makes a peace deal and gets the likes of Hamas leadership and Netanyahu et Al into the Hague and does them for war crimes.

Guaranteed peace and two states. UN leaves peace keepers there initially.

What it needs is to see Jews and Arabs as human and equal.

 

[That_Bloke]

Well said.

Wouldn't this be a good case for the UN to intervene? Help Israel destroy Hamas without wholesale slaughter of civilians?

If there's a true will from the international community to stop this madness that had gone for way too long, it's the only way. The UN can't do much with the US systematically blocking any resolution going against Israel. It depends on the other major players China, Russia and Iran to extent (forget about Europe and the arab coiuntries)

It’s not a false pretence though is it? It’s a reality that a Palestinian state will not happen now, and not for decades from now. There’s no path to a Palestinian state at this time. And there’s no path to peace between Israel and the Palestinians. That’s without the whole consideration that they are both geopolitical pawns and external influences will always foster hatred.

I just don’t see any other way out of this without a whole bunch of suffering. And it’s not fear or hatred, I also mentioned that Israel should pay reparations as they are the oppressor here and that a good home should be found to make them a state.

I believe @Murder on Zidane's Floor shares a similar view on it as it’s completely hopeless there and we certainly don’t post from the same perspective on the conflict.

Here and now, what better option do you see for the Palestinians to live a better life?

And you believe that after forcing the Palestinians out of the region (ain't happening anyway), Israel will have peace? You're awfully short-sighted.

The only solution is political and it begins by stopping the Occupation. Two states or nothing. That's the only way for the region to move forward and the tragedy on 7/10 is giving us the once in a century opportunity for that.

 

[Raoul]

We literally have an example in the Bosnian war on how to end this.

Unfortunately, this is a different situation in terms of the power dynamic between all the participants, not just the main two but the regional actors who support them.

 

[VivaObertan]

The sheer audacity to say ethnic cleansing is the best option for the Palestinians, but to try and take a 'both sides' approach by saying "well if it could happen to Israel I'd be for that too". After all the pro Israel stuff posted by him, somehow I find that hard to believe.. This guy.. trying to make it sound like forcibly removing all the Palestinians is the best option for them

How about you know, for some ideas, Israel stop bombing the shit out of them, give them back all their land in the west bank that's been stolen over the last 10 years as a start, build a gigantic fecking wall so no one can get past, give Gaza back their borders and the ability to import goods so they can build a functional society, maybe import a UN peacekeeping force, maybe make a mutually beneficial deal with large penalties for violence, or about a million other ideas anyone with half a brain could come up with

But no. Let me try gaslight the world into thinking either getting bombed to shit or packed off into some land no one wants them to go to is the best option for them. I think that's GG for me with this thread, I'm putting it on ignore because how shit like that can actually be posted in here and be accepted as part of a discussion is beyond me

Bingo

 

[owlo]

And you believe that after forcing the Palestinians out of the region (ain't happening anyway) that Israel will have peace? You're awfully short-sighted.

The only solution is political and it begins by stopping the Occupation. Two states or nothing. That's the only way for the region to move forward and the tragedy on 7/10 is giving us the once in a century opportunity for that.

Of course they won’t have peace. The same manevolent actors and Iranian proxies will be after them, the same dance with hezbollah will happen, and terrorism will happen. They won’t be killing Palestinians though, and those manevolent actors won’t be using Palestinians as their pawns. It’s why I said I wish that Israel could be the ones who moved.

Who does Israel negotiate with regarding a 2 state solution? Would the offer made to arafat be acceptable? How do you even get them all in a room? What happens when Israel invade that state after 2 months with tanks to chase terrorists, or constantly air strike their comms? (because that’s what would happen) And how do you prevent this state becoming an Iranian proxy sipported by Russia ? I like that you see it as an opportunity. I hope you’re right. I just see it as hopeless and a couple of decades baked in with nothing violence.

 

[owlo]

If there's a true will from the international community to stop this madness that had gone for way too long, it's the only way. The UN can't do much with the US systematically blocking any resolution going against Israel. It depends on the other major players China, Russia and Iran to extent (forget about Europe and the arab coiuntries)

It’s in all/most of these actors interests for the conflict to keep simmering. None want or will allow peace (possible exceptions for the USA and China) - there’s absolutely no upside to peace for say Iran.

 

[RedTiger]

By the way, why do Israelis refer to Palestinians as "the Arabs"? In so many street interviews I see this pattern.

It

How are posters justifying ethnic cleansing (and yes, they are doing exactly this regardless of their endlessly terrible “explanations”) not being banned? How can ethnic cleansing ever be considered “best option”?

@owlo is just being a realist. There's no way Israel will ever concede any land they've won post 1948 or 67. I'm sure for most conservative Israelis it's either the full capitulation of the palestinians or israels very own demise.
Too binary, it nedds to be a single state solution.

 

[Raoul]

Of course they won’t have peace. The same manevolent actors and Iranian proxies will be after them, the same dance with hezbollah will happen, and terrorism will happen. They won’t be killing Palestinians though, and those manevolent actors won’t be using Palestinians as their pawns. It’s why I said I wish that Israel could be the ones who moved.

Who does Israel negotiate with regarding a 2 state solution? Would the offer made to arafat be acceptable? How do you even get them all in a room? What happens when Israel invade that state after 2 months with tanks to chase terrorists, or constantly air strike their comms? (because that’s what would happen) And how do you prevent this state becoming an Iranian proxy sipported by Russia ? I like that you see it as an opportunity. I hope you’re right. I just see it as hopeless and a couple of decades baked in with nothing violence.

The Iranians will continue agitating with their proxies irrespective of what happens in Gaza over the next few weeks/months. They will still have Hezbollah and their guys in Syria and Yemen. It would therefore actually work in their favor if Hezbollah come out of this intact, since they could continue building them up and they would still have a proxy available to do their bidding on the Israeli border. The absolute worst case sceario for the Iranians would be to lose both Hamas and Hezbollah at the same time.

 

[owlo]

It

@owlo is just being a realist. There's no way Israel will ever concede any land they've won post 1948 or 67. I'm sure for most conservative Israelis it's either the full capitulation of the palestinians or israels very own demise.
Too binary, it nedds to be a single state solution.

Yea I’m not trying to be offensive. I think there’s possibly hope for some sort of 2 state solution far into the future, but Netanayu has really poisoned the well in that regard. Support had already been dropping for it, carefully cultivated by the Israeli right. And then the 7th killed off any hope for this generation really.

There’s still hope for Israel, but also there’s concern that it’s becoming a less liberal and secular state in general - it was always meant to be a secular state in general with liberal ideology for Jews of all types, but the right has been pushing certain ideals on them for a while. I think @Amir might be better situated to explain that as Ive not actually lived there for 20 years.

 

[Roane]

Unfortunately, this is a different situation in terms of the power dynamic between all the participants, not just the main two but the regional actors who support them.

All wars have their own intricacies, of that I have no doubt.

The dynamics here are not all that different in terms of the language (ethnic cleansing, mass murder) no one initially stepping in, military and weapons being provided. Religion being a factor etc etc.

Bottom line it was resolved not because of the participants but despite of them and the big countries taking action. Peace being achieved in Ohio.

Even this "war" is following similar patterns. Just look at the change in language by likes of Boden and the calls for our lot in UK to use certain language.

 

[Pintu]

“We are 100% certain they were terrorists.... we don't know who they are”

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[calodo2003]

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[Pintu]

CNN are shamelessly spreading Red Cross propaganda.

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[Raoul]

All wars have their own intricacies, of that I have no doubt.

The dynamics here are not all that different in terms of the language (ethnic cleansing, mass murder) no one initially stepping in, military and weapons being provided. Religion being a factor etc etc.

Bottom line it was resolved not because of the participants but despite of them and the big countries taking action. Peace being achieved in Ohio.

Even this "war" is following similar patterns. Just look at the change in language by likes of Boden and the calls for our lot in UK to use certain language.

What you’re describing requires two actual parties (there’s no such thing on the Palestinian side given the Hamas/Fatah divide, and the Israelis are too securitized and motivated by revenge.

It also requires political will from the US, which unlike in the 90s, doesn’t exist. Politicians in the US are more interested in supporting the Israelis. Therefore none of what you describe is remotely realistic in the dynamics of the present.

 

[owlo]

The Iranians will continue agitating with their proxies irrespective of what happens in Gaza over the next few weeks/months. They will still have Hezbollah and their guys in Syria and Yemen. It would therefore actually work in their favor if Hezbollah come out of this intact, since they could continue building them up and they would still have a proxy available to do their bidding on the Israeli border. The absolute worst case sceario for the Iranians would be to lose both Hamas and Hezbollah at the same time.

Also possible they are “punishing” Hamas for this themselves, as it was quite clear from Nasrallahs language earlier that they overstepped. It could simply be Iran saying you’re on your own and we hope Israel hurt you as you didn’t keep us clued in. Other than the Houthis test driving some BMs there’s been little to nothing from them. I found a cool infographic on irans proxies but am not currently home so will share later.

 

[Roane]

The Iranians will continue agitating with their proxies irrespective of what happens in Gaza over the next few weeks/months. They will still have Hezbollah and their guys in Syria and Yemen. It would therefore actually work in their favor if Hezbollah come out of this intact, since they could continue building them up and they would still have a proxy available to do their bidding on the Israeli border. The absolute worst case sceario for the Iranians would be to lose both Hamas and Hezbollah at the same time.

The Iranians will do squat. Israel was close to Iran under the Shah and far from Saudi. Now it's the reverse of that.

Iran as Shia probably see the Sunni as the bigger threat.

Israel could be the best ally Iran has of peace is established between the Palestinians.

If things like Israel cutting ties with trump after he killed that Iranian dude are to be believed they already may have a secret relationship as they did with Khomeini despite the public rhetoric

 

[Roane]

What you’re describing requires two actual parties (there’s no such thing on the Palestinian side given the Hamas/Fatah divide, and the Israelis are too securitized and motivated by revenge.

It also requires political will from the US, which unlike in the 90s, doesn’t exist. Politicians in the US are more interested in supporting the Israelis. Therefore none of what you describe is remotely realistic in the dynamics of the present.

I acknowledge that the USA is the real issue. Not Palestine or Israel. That was my point.

USA can stop this war overnight and enforce a two state solution fairly quickly.

The parties thing is irrelevant. Allm it needs is American will

 

[JagUTD]

CNN are shamelessly spreading Red Cross propaganda.

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Look, it's probably another feck up by Israel if we are being polite, but how likely is it that they would admit to having been hijacked by Hamas?

I'm sure someone here will know, but have any of the humanitarian groups in Gaza ever confirmed they have been compromised?

 

[owlo]

I said it a few weeks ago, a few times, but should probably reiterate it, that the Israeli use of fires seems extreme and closer to Russian doctrine than their own. Turning Gaza into a Grozny is rather horrific, though not entirely surpriding.

Yassin PG-7VR is a good pick for Hamas , though as you noted @Raoul its probably their B team putting the charges on the wrong way. Definite lack of training. Very likely that Nukhba etc are being held back at this point as we’ve barely seen more than an Rpg7. Don’t even think I’ve seen more than a few IEDs. So either the air strikes have been extremely effective (unlikely), a lot of their best fighters died in the 7th (possible) or their operators are being held back for urban combat (likely, as we’ve not seen proper ATGMs etc. don’t even think I’ve seen a Kornet.*

It’s very worrying as the IDF seem adverse to their own casualties after 7th. A likely/possible response will be to engage with fires and siege/starvation, which is going to drive civcas crazy. They may also just be better/less unprepared than we think.

*I have used twitter information etc to corroborate this post, and have not used any videos from IDF soldiers on the ground . IDF opsec seems pretty good at least.

 

[Raoul]

I acknowledge that the USA is the real issue. Not Palestine or Israel. That was my point.

USA can stop this war overnight and enforce a two state solution fairly quickly.

The parties thing is irrelevant. Allm it needs is American will

It cannot because there’s no political will, nor are there two viable parties to create a two state solution anymore.