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africanspur

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Is that conceptually a strange thing to write down? Not sure I understand. I can think of quite a few situations where killing children would be the moral good. Underage suicide bomber running towards a kindgarten, as a simple example.

Really feels like if people are finding reasons like that to attack The Atlantic of all sources (who have done excellent anti-Israeli coverage for months now) then they should be focussed on more pressing targets.
I don't know what the full article is saying to be honest so can't fully comment on what the exact message is supposed to be but really? You can't see the problematic nature of legally justifying the killing of children, during an ongoing conflict where there is, at the very least debate about whether a genocide is onging, being militarily and diplomatically covered by the country the Atlantic is based in?

For me, to help emphasise the awful dehumanisation of Palestinians and the difference in rhetoric between the two, I would think about whether the Atlantic would ever write an article about whether Palestinians have the moral or legal right to strike back against the people occupying them. And whether there is really much of a distinction between civilian and military in a country where military service is essentially compulsory for the overwhelming majority.

Of course though they would't write this and there would be widespread revulsion if they did. There is a pretty awful double standard here and the reality is that Palestinian lives mean almost nothing to most.
 

That_Bloke

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I don't know what the full article is saying to be honest so can't fully comment on what the exact message is supposed to be but really? You can't see the problematic nature of legally justifying the killing of children, during an ongoing conflict where there is, at the very least debate about whether a genocide is onging, being militarily and diplomatically covered by the country the Atlantic is based in?

For me, to help emphasise the awful dehumanisation of Palestinians and the difference in rhetoric between the two, I would think about whether the Atlantic would ever write an article about whether Palestinians have the moral or legal right to strike back against the people occupying them. And whether there is really much of a distinction between civilian and military in a country where military service is essentially compulsory for the overwhelming majority.

Of course though they would't write this and there would be widespread revulsion if they did. There is a pretty awful double standard here and the reality is that Palestinian lives mean almost nothing to most.
Look at the example he used to support his ridiculous argument. You'll understand everything,
 

Iker Quesadillas

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I would think about whether the Atlantic would ever write an article about whether Palestinians have the moral or legal right to strike back against the people occupying them. And whether there is really much of a distinction between civilian and military in a country where military service is essentially compulsory for the overwhelming majority.
Considering their editor-in-chief is a former IDF prison guard I'm gonna guess "no."
 

2mufc0

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It's just pathetic mental gymnastics, nobody buys this shite anymore.
 

VorZakone

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I have an irrational need to ask the following: have the likes of Stephen Colbert, John Oliver, Meyers etc shared their views on what's happening in Gaza?

Not that I expect comedians to solve world crises but more in the context of highlighting the Biden administration's absurdity on this subject. Or do only Republicans get made fun of?
 
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Idxomer

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Two Egyptian soldiers have been killed in a crossfire exchange at the Rafah crossing according to the Israeli media.

Both sides are saying the other started firing first.
 

e.cantona

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As far as I can read into that article, the point he's making that got people up in arms, is war is ugly and innocents will die. Including children. Dosen't make it any less awful that the war is "just". Also, a larger and important point, the death toll being used is not very reliable. Hamas being the source of it.
 

Idxomer

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As far as I can read into that article, the point he's making that got people up in arms, is war is ugly and innocents will die. Including children. Dosen't make it any less awful that the war is "just". Also, a larger and important point, the death toll being used is not very reliable. Hamas being the source of it.
So, he presented multiple shit points. Good to know.
 

Il Prete Rosso

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As far as I can read into that article, the point he's making that got people up in arms, is war is ugly and innocents will die. Including children. Dosen't make it any less awful that the war is "just". Also, a larger and important point, the death toll being used is not very reliable. Hamas being the source of it.
Hamas' numbers are usually accurate. When you think about it logically, they have no reason to lie about the death count of Palestinian civilians.
 

maniak

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Also, a larger and important point, the death toll being used is not very reliable. Hamas being the source of it.
Don't most international organizations agree that the hamas numbers are generally accurate?
 

2cents

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Don't most international organizations agree that the hamas numbers are generally accurate?
There have been credible accusations that in previous rounds of conflict in Gaza they have classified some of their fighters as civilians and those killed by their own rocket fire as casualties of Israeli strikes.

The main argument I’ve seen in regards to their numbers in this conflict is that while in previous rounds there have always been independent organizations present in Gaza to verify/confirm the numbers published by Hamas, in this case all those organizations have left, leaving Hamas free to inflate the death toll. However I have only really seen this argument put forward by Israeli advocacy sources.
 

2mufc0

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Hamas' numbers are usually accurate. When you think about it logically, they have no reason to lie about the death count of Palestinian civilians.
You've asked him to think logically which is a tough ask.

There hasn't been an precedence of Hamas numbers being inaccurate. If anything the numbers are conservative, there are plenty lost under the rubble that haven't been counted.
 

maniak

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There have been credible accusations that in previous rounds of conflict in Gaza they have classified some of their fighters as civilians and those killed by their own rocket fire as casualties of Israeli strikes.

The main argument I’ve seen in regards to their numbers in this conflict is that while in previous rounds there have always been independent organizations present in Gaza to verify/confirm the numbers published by Hamas, in this case all those organizations have left, leaving Hamas free to inflate the death toll. However I have only really seen this argument put forward by Israeli advocacy sources.
Fair enough, thanks for the info.
 

Sky1981

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As far as I can read into that article, the point he's making that got people up in arms, is war is ugly and innocents will die. Including children. Dosen't make it any less awful that the war is "just". Also, a larger and important point, the death toll being used is not very reliable. Hamas being the source of it.
This is not war. This is massacre
 

Iker Quesadillas

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As far as I can read into that article, the point he's making that got people up in arms, is war is ugly and innocents will die. Including children. Dosen't make it any less awful that the war is "just". Also, a larger and important point, the death toll being used is not very reliable. Hamas being the source of it.
People are annoyed at the article because the author begins with the premise that Israel is waging its war justly and with regard to collateral damage. This is a laughable and idiotic thing to believe in late may 2024, IMO. It's also annoying that the premise is largely hidden.
 
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oneniltothearsenal

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He has good company.

Disingenuous tweet. There is a difference between pointing out that there are circumstances where it is legal to kill someone under 18 and KSM. For instance, if a 15 year old is holding a gun on you and shooting at you, it is legal to kill that 15 year old in self defense.

Hamas' numbers are usually accurate. When you think about it logically, they have no reason to lie about the death count of Palestinian civilians.
Logically, Hamas has every incentive to present the deaths of combatants as civilians.
 

Raoul

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As far as I can read into that article, the point he's making that got people up in arms, is war is ugly and innocents will die. Including children. Dosen't make it any less awful that the war is "just". Also, a larger and important point, the death toll being used is not very reliable. Hamas being the source of it.
He's also critical of the IDF for not allowing journos into Gaza and points out discrepancies between the IDF's numbers on Hamas members killed being different than Netanyahu's. All things said, there's plenty of criticism to go around and it should come as no surprise that both sides are inflating the numbers to drive public opinion towards their respective narratives.
 

Idxomer

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"A tragic mistake," said a genocidal maniac about people being burned alive and babies losing their heads.
 

Dirty Schwein

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Two Egyptian soldiers have been killed in a crossfire exchange at the Rafah crossing according to the Israeli media.

Both sides are saying the other started firing first.
Couldn't have been Israel. They never start wars or do anything wrong. I'm sure it's Egypt's fault. Also INSERT SOMETHING about anti-Semitism.
 

Raoul

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"A tragic mistake," said a genocidal maniac about people being burned alive and babies losing their heads.
At least he is admitting it, which at a later date can be used as evidence against him and whichever military commander actually ordered the bombing.
 

Kaos

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Hamas numbers can never be trusted. All they desire is to provoke Israel into attacks then make them look as bad as possible after. They don't value the lives of their own civilians at all. This time the baited Israel real good and they walked right into the trap. Its sad what the ordinary people have to suffer as a result.
Israel don't need to be baited, they've cherished any opportunity they can get to massacre as many civilians as possible to make room for their colonial project.
 

Giggsyking

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Hamas numbers can never be trusted. All they desire is to provoke Israel into attacks then make them look as bad as possible after. They don't value the lives of their own civilians at all. This time the baited Israel real good and they walked right into the trap. Its sad what the ordinary people have to suffer as a result.
Look what you made me do to you. :lol:

Are you not ashamed of the victim blaming?
 

Giggsyking

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Israel don't need to be baited, they've cherished any opportunity they can get to massacre as many civilians as possible to make room for their colonial project.
I really envy your patience with such disingenuous posts that are borderline evil.
 

e.cantona

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Hamas' numbers are usually accurate. When you think about it logically, they have no reason to lie about the death count of Palestinian civilians.
Don't most international organizations agree that the hamas numbers are generally accurate?
This is not war. This is massacre
People are annoyed at the article because the author begins with the premise that Israel is waging its war justly and with regard to collateral damage. This is a laughable and idiotic thing to believe in late may 2024, IMO. It's also annoying that the premise is largely hidden.
Hamas' numbers are something like 35.000. That includes all deaths, I belive. Hamas fighters, women and children. Deaths by Hamas' failed rockets fired towards Israel and I think some argue natural caused deaths as well. Israel claim to have killed 13-14.000 Hamas fighters. I belive this is below, by some margin, other urban area "wars" faught in the past. In Mosul vs ISIS I think the ratio was 2.5:1, civilian dead vs ISIS fighters. And this is if one was to belive Hamas' numbers.

He's also critical of the IDF for not allowing journos into Gaza and points out discrepancies between the IDF's numbers on Hamas members killed being different than Netanyahu's. All things said, there's plenty of criticism to go around and it should come as no surprise that both sides are inflating the numbers to drive public opinion towards their respective narratives.
Agree. Hamas is winning the PR war.
 

JPRouve

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Israel don't need to be baited, they've cherished any opportunity they can get to massacre as many civilians as possible to make room for their colonial project.
You would think that nothing happened before October 2023.
 

Giggsyking

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Hamas' numbers are something like 35.000. That includes all deaths, I belive. Hamas fighters, women and children. Deaths by Hamas' failed rockets fired towards Israel and I think some argue natural caused deaths as well. Israel claim to have killed 13-14.000 Hamas fighters. I belive this is below, by some margin, other urban area "wars" faught in the past. In Mosul vs ISIS I think the ratio was 2.5:1, civilian dead vs ISIS fighters. And this is if one was to belive Hamas' numbers.
You are extremely uninformed on the subject I see.
 

Kaos

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You would think that nothing happened before October 2023.
Or before 1987 - ie the year Hamas were founded. Or in the West Bank, where Hamas have close to zero presence. But yes, it's all a case of those masterminds Hamas baiting Israel into a "look what you made me do" massacre. Imagine what the region would look like if there were no Hamas - and imagine if it were called the West Bank.