Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Paxi]

New round of rockets launched within the past half hour. Looks like another violent night ahead.

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What are those? Those coming in or out of Israel?

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

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[Raoul]

What are those? Those coming in or out of Israel?

Those are iron dome shooting down rockets coming from Gaza

 

[mu4c_20le]

US and its media are biased towards its own allies... shock horror

 

[calodo2003]

I can't explain how surreal it is to sit in your living room, and watch Law & Order with the big door-window open and hear the countless sounds of explosions from rockets landing/being intercepted by Iron Dome.

Stay safe, brother.

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

US and its media are biased towards its own allies... shock horror

America is back

 

[Paxi]

Those are iron dome shooting down rockets coming from Gaza

Right but what are Hamas using? Is it just rocket propelled grenades? Is there surface to surface missiles, or even javelins or something? Iron dome sounds like they've been preparing for Thanos.

 

[The Corinthian]

Good on Israel for defending themselves.

 

[Paxi]

Humour me this.. Suppose Hamas are a terrorist group whom provide a very credible threat to State of Israel, so, why does Israel not send the army in, which is one of the best trained armies in the world. They've one of the best intelligence agencies in the world etc. I mean, why level buildings?

 

[owlo]

What's your source for this ?

There's multiple. It's extremely well documented. You can google for more yourself but here's a few. He's also sacked/publicly humiliated Russian officials for anti-semitism. It's way down in Russia on his watch.

https://www.reuters.com/article/idUS219934768220160114
https://repository.upenn.edu/spice/vol13/iss1/5/
https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.2979/antistud.3.2.05?seq=1
https://www.timesofisrael.com/why-russian-jews-are-divided-over-the-anti-putin-movement/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/jun/05/russia.jamessturcke
https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/MAGA...is-way-to-the-top-of-european-jewry-1.5395939
https://www.haaretz.com/.premium-putin-a-dangerous-friend-to-the-jews-1.5330063

 

[VorZakone]

Humour me this.. Suppose Hamas are a terrorist group whom provide a very credible threat to State of Israel, so, why does Israel not send the army in, which is one of the best trained armies in the world. They've one of the best intelligence agencies in the world etc. I mean, why level buildings?

Because urban warfare in Gaza is absolutely not in Israel's interest to do so, both from a military and PR perspective.

 

[Raoul]

Humour me this.. Suppose Hamas are a terrorist group whom provide a very credible threat to State of Israel, so, why does Israel not send the army in, which is one of the best trained armies in the world. They've one of the best intelligence agencies in the world etc. I mean, why level buildings?

Are you familiar with the 2014 Gaza War ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_War#Phase_2:_Ground_invasion

 

[maniak]

Humour me this.. Suppose Hamas are a terrorist group whom provide a very credible threat to State of Israel, so, why does Israel not send the army in, which is one of the best trained armies in the world. They've one of the best intelligence agencies in the world etc. I mean, why level buildings?

Collective punishment

 

[owlo]

Could be because some oligarchs are Jews (Abramovich). Though he had bad relationships with the likes of Berezovsky and Khodorkovsky.

Unsure. He could just see them as pawns in his geopolitics. I wouldn't attempt to second guess Putin, so for me, it just is what it is. He's a 'very dangerous friend' as one article put it.

 

[Raoul]

There's multiple. It's extremely well documented. You can google for more yourself but here's a few. He's also sacked/publicly humiliated Russian officials for anti-semitism. It's way down in Russia on his watch.

https://www.reuters.com/article/idUS219934768220160114
https://repository.upenn.edu/spice/vol13/iss1/5/
https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.2979/antistud.3.2.05?seq=1
https://www.timesofisrael.com/why-russian-jews-are-divided-over-the-anti-putin-movement/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/jun/05/russia.jamessturcke
https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/MAGA...is-way-to-the-top-of-european-jewry-1.5395939
https://www.haaretz.com/.premium-putin-a-dangerous-friend-to-the-jews-1.5330063

Thanks

 

[calodo2003]

Right but what are Hamas using? Is it just rocket propelled grenades? Is there surface to surface missiles, or even javelins or something? Iron dome sounds like they've been preparing for Thanos.

They’re all ‘dumb’ rockets.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.st...ated-range-of-unguided-rockets-used-by-hamas/

It’s basically a math exercise to intercept them. Iron Dome is the best missile defense platform around.

 

[calodo2003]

Humour me this.. Suppose Hamas are a terrorist group whom provide a very credible threat to State of Israel, so, why does Israel not send the army in, which is one of the best trained armies in the world. They've one of the best intelligence agencies in the world etc. I mean, why level buildings?

It’s quite difficult to execute a successful military ground operation inside a location like Manhattan with a relatively small force.

 

[Moby]

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[2cents]

Humour me this.. Suppose Hamas are a terrorist group whom provide a very credible threat to State of Israel, so, why does Israel not send the army in, which is one of the best trained armies in the world. They've one of the best intelligence agencies in the world etc. I mean, why level buildings?

Apart from everything else, ground invasion risks kidnapping and another Gilad Shalit situation, which would be extremely painful (politically) for whoever made the decision to bear.

 

[The Corinthian]

 

[OutlawGER]

Why are so many world leaders behind Israel. I don't get it. It makes me feel a bit sick to be honest.

I think you need to open the box of pandorra to understand.

 

[lefty_jakobz]

Rally in Glasgow tomorrow against the Israeli massacre. The people have more balls than their governments. Protest happening all over the WORLD IN SUPPORT OF THE Palestinians, Israel is losing the PR war, and long may that continue.

 

[The Corinthian]

desecrating graves now

 

[Paxi]

Because urban warfare in Gaza is absolutely not in Israel's interest to do so, both from a military and PR perspective.

Urban warfare is meat and drink of modern military, especially as sophisticated and as trained as the Israelis.

Are you familiar with the 2014 Gaza War ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_War#Phase_2:_Ground_invasion

No, I'm not. I will read through it now, though.

Edit: Will actually read through it tomorrow.

It’s quite difficult to execute a successful military ground operation inside a location like Manhattan with a relatively small force.

I understand that Urban warfare is difficult but if as Israel claim, that a terrorist organisation are terrorising them on their doorstep, then surely one would send in troops. I mean I only to think of Northern Ireland and more palpably Grozny, Chechnya, where it was a massacre. Surely a counter insurgency would be something that's infinitely better? Although, Chechnya is probably a bad example since Russians fought basically hand to hand combat with Chechens but then fecking levelled everything anyway.

Apart from everything else, ground invasion risks kidnapping and another Gilad Shalit situation, which would be extremely painful (politically) for whoever made the decision to bear.

I've never heard of it. I will educate myself. Probably not tonight, mind.

 

[The Corinthian]

@Paxi - Gilad Shalit was an IDF soldier who was kidnapped during a ground invasion in Gaza and held for 5 years. He was afforded all the rights of a prisoner according to Islam. He was eventually released in exchange for the release of approx 1,000 Palestinians from jail.

 

[Paxi]

desecrating graves now

I know its utterly reprehensible but setting fire to local business takes the piss. It needs to be stopped. These people have nothing as it is. It's just crazy.

 

[calodo2003]

Urban warfare is meat and drink of modern military, especially as sophisticated and as trained as the Israelis.



No, I'm not. I will read through it now, though.

Edit: Will actually read through it tomorrow.



I understand that Urban warfare is difficult but if as Israel claim, that a terrorist organisation are terrorising them on their doorstep, then surely one would send in troops. I mean I only to think of Northern Ireland and more palpably Grozny, Chechnya, where it was a massacre. Surely a counter insurgency would be something that's infinitely better? Although, Chechnya is probably a bad example since Russians fought basically hand to hand combat with Chechens but then fecking levelled everything anyway.




I've never heard of it. I will educate myself. Probably not tonight, mind.

Neither of those locales is similar to what the Gaza environment is. Grozny would be most associative, but you then answered your own question as to why no sane theater commander would commit any significant force into the third most dense polity in the world.

 

[Paxi]

@Paxi - Gilad Shalit was an IDF soldier who was kidnapped during a ground invasion in Gaza and held for 5 years. He was afforded all the rights of a prisoner according to Islam. He was eventually released in exchange for the release of approx 1,000 Palestinians from jail.

Right, I need to read more about it. Though, he didn't get decapitated, which seems like Hamas are willing to negotiate and aren't as crazed as IS for example.

 

[The Corinthian]

Right, I need to read more about it. Though, he didn't get decapitated, which seems like Hamas are willing to negotiate and aren't as crazed as IS for example.

Yea like I said he was given prisoner rights - food, water, shelter, security (from people who would do him harm), medical care.

 

[Paxi]

Neither of those locales is similar to what the Gaza environment is. Grozny would be most associative, but you then answered your own question as to why no sane theater commander would commit any significant force into the third most dense polity in the world.

I think Northern Ireland was pretty urban in Derry and Belfast. See round the back of the terraced houses and the IED set everywhere, ambushes etc. I mean urban warfare is urban warfare. In any case, we're talking one of the best militaries in the world here.

 

[calodo2003]

@Paxi - Gilad Shalit was an IDF soldier who was kidnapped during a ground invasion in Gaza and held for 5 years. He was afforded all the rights of a prisoner according to Islam. He was eventually released in exchange for the release of approx 1,000 Palestinians from jail.

Is there difference in prisoner rights between what Islam prescribes v. what other conventions prescribe?

 

[calodo2003]

I think Northern Ireland was pretty urban in Derry and Belfast. See round the back of the terraced houses and the IED set everywhere, ambushes etc. I mean urban warfare is urban warfare. In any case, we're talking one of the best militaries in the world here.

Northern Ireland isn’t anything like Gaza or Manhattan or Singapore, for example.

The verticality of these locations alone pose exponentially more threat to a foreign force.

It’s one of the best militaries, but it ain’t one of the biggest militaries.

 

[Paxi]

Yea like I said he was given prisoner rights - food, water, shelter, security (from people who would do him harm), medical care.

Well, that seems very reasonable. I mean I haven't heard many case's where POW's are afforded life, let alone medical care. Maybe Ukraine is the last conflict that I heard of that have been afforded that.

 

[The Corinthian]

Is there difference in prisoner rights between what Islam prescribes v. what other conventions prescribe?

I’m not sure to be honest. I’d assume there are more commonalities than not. The reason I highlighted it because there’s a pervasive narrative that Hamas are only crazed terrorists with no morals. And of course we’re seeing untold destruction in Gaza now ‘because Hamas!’

 

[Paxi]

Northern Ireland isn’t anything like Gaza or Manhattan or Singapore, for example.

The verticality of these locations alone pose exponentially more threat to a foreign force.

It’s one of the best militaries, but it ain’t one of the biggest militaries.

I'm not saying it's exactly like for like, but vertically or horizontally, urban warfare would involve the same tactical principals, albeit at a slower pace.

Though, we should note, that Israel has mandatory conscription and I'm pretty sure they're well versed in how to incur into Palestine. Last bit needs to be taking with a bit of salt but I mean I'd be gobsmacked if that wasn't part of the curriculum.

 

[Paxi]

Is there difference in prisoner rights between what Islam prescribes v. what other conventions prescribe?

Are we not all under Geneva conventions just? I've never heard about specific cultural conventions, at least not in modern history.

 

[Foxbatt]

Is there difference in prisoner rights between what Islam prescribes v. what other conventions prescribe?

Basically it is actually more. No killing of women and children or non combatants. No harming or torture etc. But does any really follow it? I do not think so. It is like Jesus and turning the other cheek. Christian countries do not follow and neither do Muslim countries.

 

[owlo]

Humour me this.. Suppose Hamas are a terrorist group whom provide a very credible threat to State of Israel, so, why does Israel not send the army in, which is one of the best trained armies in the world. They've one of the best intelligence agencies in the world etc. I mean, why level buildings?

Because in terms of impact a ground offensive would be both deadly and devastating compared to air strikes.

 

[Foxbatt]

Are we not all under Geneva conventions just? I've never heard about specific cultural conventions, at least not in modern history.

Countries have to obey the Geneva Convention. Groups classified as terrorist normally do not follow it. That said a lot of countries also do not follow it. Bombing wedding parties etc. Or blasting buildings etc.

 

[Paxi]

Because in terms of impact a ground offensive would be both deadly and devastating compared to air strikes.

Yeah deadly to Israelis, mate. Wouldn’t be as deadly to children and women that just been bombed into fecking oblivion. If there’s such an existential threat then go in, and surgically remove it. Rather than carpet bomb innocent feckers.