Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Frasbul]

If your entire knowledge of our history is based on some Wikipedia page or anti-Shah western propaganda (Khomeini was a darling of BBC and the French btw, the bastards) , best to just agree to disagree.

luckily, Iranian people have realized what a complete sham and orchestrated disaster 1979 was … and hopefully we will go back to the days where our passport was number 8 globally, we were the most economically thriving nation in M we were the most modern country in Middle East and the only ones with equal rights between men and women. If that’s dictatorship, I’ll take it everyday if the week twice on sundays ! We will determine our faith this time irrespective of what western “Intelligencia” think

anyways back to topic

I am Iranian, thank you very much dadash.

 

[2cents]

It's beyond anything we've seen from Hamas in recent years.

It's beyond anything achieved by any Palestinian faction in the century or more that Palestinians have been resisting Zionism, with the possible exception of some of the early battles around Jerusalem during the 1948 war.

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

My understanding was that the British did feck you over hard for many years, and it was only American intervention that rolled back some of the SAVAK terror. But you still didn’t get a fair price for your oil, Bahrain got annexed etc. far better life than now, but not ideal. I think you’d be far more independent this time around.



I’ll try to be a bit optimistic here, goes against the grain. Urban warfare is the absolute worst, and Gaza is a worse nightmare than the IDF could ever contemplate. See Americans in fallujah and that was nothing close to this. Hamas will be hiding with the people, well trained and well armed by iran (they seem to have kornets too) and it’s not an environment that Israel can win in without completEly destroying international opinion.

better they keep the high ground and attempt to negotiate than walk into a death trap with a hostile population of 2 million. I don’t think they can do it, unless they use Russian tactics. Perhaps they’ll leverage international pressure, because I don’t think going in is viable.

I think the ground invasion will take place from a psycholgical/emotional place, even in the minds of the Israeli generals who will give all sorts of valid tactical reasons to go for it.

Tons of soldiers will be killed, wounded, traumatized for life.... these are 20-year-olds for the most part.
and the international opinion will, as ever, be on the Palestinian side within 2-3 days.

But the Israeli public is used to the Air Force taking entire buildings down, sad as it sounds. this is the bare minimum.
and what Hamas did has to be countered by much much more than the bare minimum (even I personally have felt these feelings earlier today).

This will be the spirit of most Israelis.

this 'wiping Gaza off the map' is complete horseshit. Can only be done with weapons Israel won't use due to public opinion from the outer world.

 

[calodo2003]

Apparently Goldman & his family were in Israel when the attacks happened & had to shelter in place in their hotel. They are either heading back or are already back thankfully. That would have been a tragic loss if anything happened to him...

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[calodo2003]

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[owlo]

I think the ground invasion will take place from a psycholgical/emotional place, even in the minds of the Israeli generals who will give all sorts of valid tactical reasons to go for it.

Tons of soldiers will be killed, wounded, traumatized for life.... these are 20-year-olds for the most part.
and the international opinion will, as ever, be on the Palestinian side within 2-3 days.

But the Israeli public is used to the Air Force taking entire buildings down, sad as it sounds. this is the bare minimum.
and what Hamas did has to be countered by much much more than the bare minimum (even I personally have felt these feelings earlier today).

This will be the spirit of most Israelis.

this 'wiping Gaza off the map' is complete horseshit. Can only be done with weapons Israel won't use due to public opinion from the outer world.

They (the IDF) will be massacred without fires, which will make people more angry at the government. I don’t think it can be done operationally. So maybe, maybe they will negotiate and we won’t see too much death.

People and politicians will want revenge, but pragmatism should win out. I don’t believe that the generals don’t know this.
Hopefully anyway….

 

[owlo]

It's beyond anything achieved by any Palestinian faction in the century or more that Palestinians have been resisting Zionism, with the possible exception of some of the early battles around Jerusalem during the 1948 war.

achieved is an interesting word In this context.

 

[Wilt]

Apparently Goldman & his family were in Israel when the attacks happened & had to shelter in place in their hotel. They are either heading back or are already back thankfully. That would have been a tragic loss if anything happened to him...

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Beyond belief.
Rest in peace poor souls.

 

[Eyepopper]

Fair play to them and to you as a person, and to your opinions.
I don't want to turn this thread into me versus you, I have a lot to say about the wrongdoings of my country.

that being said,
I can easily add a video of beheaded Israeli officers' bodies,
or of another soldier that was murdered in gazza from people hitting him with a shovel on the throat until he died.

I'll never do that.

'both sides', as you wrote it using quotes,
have their utter scum of the earth and also sensible people who wish they could all live a happy, carefree life somewhere else around the globe.

Fair play man, your posts in this thread are very insightful, and offer the sort of level headed, first hand opinion often missing on complicated topics like this.

To me, the entire situation is depressing as hell, I find myself in a rare situation where I think everyone's doing the wrong thing. Both sides are seemingly in a race to the bottom of human decency.

Anyway, thanks for your insights, and I hope you and yours stay safe through this.

The innocent on both sides will be the ones who suffer most.

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

They (the IDF) will be massacred without fires, which will make people more angry at the government. I don’t think it can be done operationally. So maybe, maybe they will negotiate and we won’t see too much death.

People and politicians will want revenge, but pragmatism should win out. I don’t believe that the generals don’t know this.
Hopefully anyway….

They do but the hard facts are that tons of tanks are making their way to the border of Gaza for the past couple of hours.
It's bound to happen, you don't mobilize as many tanks just for deterrence or what have you.

it'll happen either in 2-3 hours before dawn, or tomorrow before dawn.
Gonna be nasty as hell.

There's no way that the planning behind this is even remotely sufficient. and Gaza is a hornets-nest even when you have ample time for planning your strike. IDF is going to hurt massively.

 

[owlo]

They do but the hard facts are that tons of tanks are making their way to the border of Gaza for the past couple of hours.
It's bound to happen, you don't mobilize as many tanks just for deterrence or what have you.

it'll happen either in 2-3 hours before dawn, or tomorrow before dawn.
Gonna be nasty as hell.

There's no way that the planning behind this is even remotely sufficient. and Gaza is a hornets-nest even when you have ample time for planning your strike. IDF is going to hurt massively.

yea, but there’s a difference in driving in a tank company in a predefined area and making a show of revenge. And actually trying to control the city. I suspect they’ll do the former, if it’s the latter I don’t think those tanks will go home. I think the air strikes are a good sign; if you were preparing for a full on invasion you’d be pelting down artillery and saving the planes for later. I don’t think they’ll ignore military history and just roll in.

(I can be wrong obviously, I didn’t think that Russia had the manpower to successfully invade Ukraine, and a week large thwy invaded!)

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

yea, but there’s a difference in driving in a tank company in a predefined area and making a show of revenge. And actually trying to control the city. I suspect they’ll do the former, if it’s the latter I don’t think those tanks will go home. I think the air strikes are a good sign; if you were preparing for a full on invasion you’d be pelting down artillery and saving the planes for later. I don’t think they’ll ignore military history and just roll in.

(I can be wrong obviously, I didn’t think that Russia had the manpower to successfully invade Ukraine, and a week large thwy invaded!)

Oh ok now I see what you mean and I agree.
IDF will not control the city, that's not the end goal here,

and many in the public will be outraged by this.

 

[owlo]

Oh ok now I see what you mean and I agree.
IDF will not control the city, that's not the end goal here,

and many in the public will be outraged by this.

Which means they can’t bring the hostages home militarily. This is obviously the priority, so I think theyll need to show some sort of restraint and diplomacy to keep the international pressure on the Palestinians.

perhaps I’m just overly hopeful.

The public will be outraged yes. I didn’t reply to your post before because it honestly felt like you were in shock. The shock and freezing comes first, then the rage. You can’t be brought from the shock, it takes time. And it takes a decade or more (did for me at least though I was very very young) to get to any sort of peace with yourself and see the other side as human. And the right wing politicians will channel that rage with rhetoric. But hopefully the generals will see what is obvious here. Because I don’t think Israel can or will be brutal like Russia, which would be the only way. So that leaves negotiations… a fragment of hope?

 

[adexkola]

I’d love to see Friedman’s plan for how to accomplish that.

feck Friedman. "Earth is flat" head ass.

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

Yeah, I was and still am in some sort of shock, but less so compared to when I wrote that long post.
I take it from your post that you were born here?

or were you raised in another ""conflictual environment""?

I hope Bibi suffers a heart attack of some sort but I'm quite skeptical about this being his final shitty swan song.
His followers (supporters, almost... as if he were a football club) are blind as a bat. he has a cult-leader-like effect on many of them.

 

[owlo]

Yeah, I was and still am in some sort of shock, but less so compared to when I wrote that long post.
I take it from your post that you were born here?

or were you raised in another ""conflictual environment""?

I hope Bibi suffers a heart attack of some sort but I'm quite skeptical about this being his final shitty swan song.
His followers (supporters, almost... as if he were a football club) are blind as a bat. he has a cult-leader-like effect on many of them.

Spoiler

Dolphinarium. I don’t really talk about it because I’m ashamed of how lucky I got and my hatred for Jews and Israel after the fact which was super twisted. And I can’t even speak coherently about it even now. Just remember in the flight out in the days after with my parents, sitting there frozen for ages. Days I think. Girl I “loved” (first loves at that age) gone, and life ruined. I think it was more than 10 years and military experience here in the uk before I started to view palestinians as people. I still refuse to speak a word of Hebrew or accept/date Jews or accept any religious way, or bring kids into the world, though I think I’m softening a little nowadays in some of my views. It’s weird.

 

[owlo]

Golda Meir resigned following the Yom Kippur war. Netenyahu should resign in absolute disgrace after what has happened. Biggest loss of Jewish life in one day since the Holocaust if what I’ve read is true. That’s all on him as leader.

haha, nice joke, fat chance. He’s already used it to cement power by blaming the right in his own government and start national unity talks. His number one aim seems to be staying out of jail..

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

Golda Meir resigned following the Yom Kippur war. Netenyahu should resign in absolute disgrace after what has happened. Biggest loss of Jewish life in one day since the Holocaust if what I’ve read is true. That’s all on him as leader.

politicians back then had some degree of values they handled themselves by.
these days are long gone, in Israel and in other places, it seems to me.

Bibi will sell his mother to Hamas if it means he stays in his seat.

There have been some quotes leaked from a closed government meeting earlier according to which,
IF true (I have no way to verify), he was claimed to have said that he would not form an emergency government with his opponents [some are ex-security ministers and chiefs of staff, and they have a lot of experience in leading wars] because it means that in 3 months' time, he's gonna lose the elections.

I tend to believe this leak.
The utter shitstain.

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

Spoiler

Dolphinarium. I don’t really talk about it because I’m ashamed of how lucky I got and my hatred for Jews and Israel after the fact which was super twisted. And I can’t even speak coherently about it even now. Just remember in the flight out in the days after with my parents, sitting there frozen for ages. Days I think. Girl I “loved” (first loves at that age) gone, and life ruined. I think it was more than 10 years and military experience here in the uk before I started to view palestinians as people. I still refuse to speak a word of Hebrew or accept/date Jews or accept any religious way, or bring kids into the world, though I think I’m softening a little nowadays in some of my views. It’s weird.

Christ. appreciate the fact that you shared it.
I remember some of the aftermath of it even though I was only 11.
horrible days.

 

[calodo2003]

Result of a clash between Hamas & IDF soldiers, evocative of Ukraine...

Spoiler: Wagner-esque

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[owlo]

Unfortunately you probably both right. Should send him as part of the first brigade into Gaza.

I’m all in for trading him in for the hostages.

Christ. appreciate the fact that you shared it.

It is what it is, the world is cruel. I’ve just found my personal journey strange and thought it might be helpful in those conflicting feelings and shame you might be feeling. Particularly those Jew/Israeli/self hating ones.

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

I’m all in for trading him in for the hostages.



It is what it is, the world is cruel. I’ve just found my personal journey strange and thought it might be helpful in those conflicting feelings and shame you might be feeling. Particularly those Jew/Israeli/self hating ones.

Thanks a lot.
I think I'm mainly saddened, annoyed, and maybe self-hating about the fact that I was born here.
I feel connected to the people I love, not the country itself.
but then the culture and language are huge parts of my identity, and not by choice.

I often think that I couldn't have given less feck had I been born Turkish, Italian, Sumalian or what have you.
Can't say that I "love" Israel, and this doesn't have to do solely with the conflict.

But I tried emigrating more than once, and felt isolated and depressed as feck with every attempt (mental health has always been an issue).

 

[calodo2003]

This is quite something...

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

This is quite something...

Feck me. I wish I could explain to you guys how many soldiers were "meant" to be there as soon as they were close to the fence from the Gazan side.

 

[owlo]

Thanks a lot.
I think I'm mainly saddened, annoyed, and maybe self-hating about the fact that I was born here.
I feel connected to the people I love, not the country itself.
but then the culture and language are huge parts of my identity, and not by choice.

I often think that I couldn't have given less feck had I been born Turkish, Italian, Sumalian or what have you.
Can't say that I "love" Israel, and this doesn't have to do solely with the conflict.

But I tried emigrating more than once, and felt isolated and depressed as feck with every attempt (mental health has always been an issue).

I still miss the frozen yoghurt, the sun, and sleeping on the balcony. But reconnecting to the culture and the people would be real difficult for me. It’s home for you, and a pretty beautiful place and decent one to live in. And being able to talk openly about your identity and feelings without fear is something. Nothing wrong with being connected to a culture and feeling you belong,

I don’t know how I feel about Israel really. I think that this generation has to play the cards which were dealt near 100 years ago and it has no choice. But then I also believe it’s a pretty brutal oppressor (by nessesity but still so) I hate the idea of religious Jews turning it into some sort of Jewish theocracy and wanting to kill all the Palestinians but I have no answers myself. Ask 25yo me or any number of people there now though, and they’ll say kill them all. I think I’d be more likely to fight for Iranian freedom than Israel. Does that make me a terrible person? Maybe.

 

[calodo2003]

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[adexkola]

I don't say this lightly.

I'd swap Guiliani for this dummy

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[owlo]

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There are some truly terrible videos going around. Israel have to show an amazing amount of restraint now and try diplomacy. If it fails, and they don’t get the hostages back that way, I believe this could go the Russian way. it can’t fail, there are 2 million humans in Gaza.

 

[calodo2003]

I don't say this lightly.

I'd swap Guiliani for this dummy

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Mayor Guiliani or Mayor Adams?

Think you might be on to something.

 

[owlo]

I don't say this lightly.

I'd swap Guiliani for this dummy

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Ive always read that prime guiliani was no joke. And he only really descended into madness after the mayorship when pulled further into trumps orbit.

 

[adexkola]

Mayor Guiliani or Mayor Adams?

Think you might be on to something.

Giuliani was extremely problematic, but he wasn't a bone headed partying idiot like Adams

It's not even the pro-Israel stance. It's NYC, that's understandable. I've never heard a mayor outrightly condemn a peaceful protest ever until this doltz.

 

[adexkola]

Ive always read that prime guiliani was no joke. And he only really descended into madness after the mayorship when pulled further into trumps orbit.

Yeah, he had the broken windows policy and was very heavy handed on crime (veering into discrimination) but otherwise, competent mayor

 

[NotThatSoph]

Russia are obviously at war yes, not committing state terror. Their entire military industrial complex is setup to support that war.

Their aim is to annex parts of a foreign state. You might find their grinding fires upon fires tactics brutal, but it’s war not terrorism.

And yet organisations like the European Parliament calls Russia a state sponsor of terrorism due to the Russian army's actions in Ukraine, and the UK government released a statement saying that Russia is "inflicting terror" on the Ukranian people. The definition of terrorism is famously murky and shifting, but it doesn't seem that being in a war is disqualifying.

 

[The Original]

Israel are now stuck. There’s also the Abraham Accords in the back of their minds - I don’t think Saudi, UAE etc care about the people in Gaza, but they can’t risk home support if Israel flatten Gaza.

Israel needs to make the choice of trying to save the hostages or annihilating Hamas. They can’t have both objectives in mind, because then they’ll achieve neither. I think Netenyahu is done after this at least.

Why wouldn't they just do those things one after the other? Save the hostages and then annihilate hamas?

 

[calodo2003]

Why wouldn't they just do those things one after the other? Save the hostages and then annihilate hamas?

The hostages are more than likely completely dispersed around Gaza vis the extensive tunnel system that exists. It will take multiple attempts to get even a handful of hostages back safely.

There is also zero doubt that the hostages will also be used as human shields at Hamas locations known to Israel.

 

[owlo]

And yet organisations like the European Parliament calls Russia a state sponsor of terrorism due to the Russian army's actions in Ukraine, and the UK government released a statement saying that Russia is "inflicting terror" on the Ukranian people. The definition of terrorism is famously murky and shifting, but it doesn't seem that being in a war is disqualifying.

Any rational discourse I’ve seen has called it war not terror. There are some characteristics (Wagner, importing Syrian fighters, use of fires, kidnapping Ukrainian kids into russia) which I guess might qualify for such a statement, but ultimately war is terrifying. Looking at the eu statement, it was particularly targeting Russian backed militias. Kadyrov, Wagner, etc as sponsored paramilitary groups by the Russian state to commit terror in Ukraine. They also mentioned specifically targeting civilians for death without warning.

There’s no parallels to the IDF actions here I believe?

 

[neverdie]

Most obvious fact ever.

That it came from the WSJ. I'd like to see the intel behind it and citations/quotations.

 

[owlo]

The hostages are more than likely completely dispersed around Gaza vis the extensive tunnel system that exists. It will take multiple attempts to get even a handful of hostages back safely.

There is also zero doubt that the hostages will also be used as human shields at Hamas locations known to Israel.

the more I think and read about it, the more I realise how completely infeasible it would be to take the territory without weeks or months of fires. I’m not even sure Israel has that amount of artillery stock. I doubt it. That said, if Hamas don’t release them when the world tells them to, or they kill them, it will be extremely dangerous And uncharted territory.

 

[Carolina Red]

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[neverdie]

the more I think and read about it, the more I realise how completely infeasible it would be to take the territory without weeks or months of fires. I’m not even sure Israel has that amount of artillery stock. I doubt it. That said, if Hamas don’t release them when the world tells them to, or they kill them, it will be extremely dangerous And uncharted territory.

They've been doing this for 30 years is what people forget. Rabin/Arrafat prisoner swaps. It seems insane now, but throughout two full blown intifadas and conflicts in-between this has been the norm for a long time.