It is tiring pretending that there is not a right way to 'support' a club - there absolutely is

[King7Eric]

So sentiment is more important to winning now? We really have become the new Liverpool

For fans surely sentiment is more important than winning. Whether Utd win a treble or get relegated, it doesn't really affect any of our lives in a material sense. We still have to do our daily jobs and face our share of problems. My boss isn't going to give me a raise because the team I support won the league.

So if you are looking at it purely from a logical point of view, it makes no sense for us to invest our time in 22 men in shorts running after a ball. The only thing that makes it worthwhile is sentiment and emotion.

 

[Wumminator]

Look, I agree about Mourinho - but it still comes down to Wummy saying that when he criticises, it's for the right reasons, but when others do it, they aren't real fans. Because guess what? Those people who are critical and negative also believe they do it for the right reasons.

Just to be clear - calling our manager a fraud, the worst manager in the world and telling him to feck off are done for the right reasons?

 

[JPRouve]

Just to be clear - calling our manager a fraud, the worst manager in the world and telling him to feck off are done for the right reasons?

There are no right or wrong reasons to have that kind of opinion. Those are subjective opinions, they affect no one outside of the people holding them.

 

[Wumminator]

There are no right or wrong reasons to have that kind of opinion. Those are subjective opinions, they affect no one outside of the people holding them.

Alright Yoda, that's all fair and everything but there's about ten people in this thread saying they post less because of nonsense opinions such as those

 

[Siorac]

Just to be clear - calling our manager a fraud, the worst manager in the world and telling him to feck off are done for the right reasons?

Presumably, the people who say these things do think so, yes. When I said back then that Mourinho should feck off because he's actively sabotaging the team for the sake of his own fragile ego, I definitely thought I was right about that and my anger comes from concern for Manchester United. Should I have 'got behind the lads' instead, have 'positive feelings'? Should you have done so, instead of relentlessly criticising him? I don't think you should have but according to your very own OP in here, you were doing football support wrong.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

It’s a fair point.



It’s worth pointing that Mourinho was hellbent on tearing the club down its foundations, all in the name of his dying reputation. He is/was a mendacious little man who was not working in the best interests of the club.

There is a distinction between criticising Mourinho for that, and making a blanket assessment of what supporting a club is all about at the same time.

It was impossible to ‘support’ Mourinho for large parts of his time at United, particularly during the final 12 months.

I didn't like Mourinho but these bolded bits are untruths. He was trying to make us successfully its just that you (and I) didnt like his methods. And he did win us some silverware even if he didn't succeed in general. And of course it was possible to support Mourinho, as many did do that, just like its possible to support LVG or Ole as many did /are doing

 

[hubbuh]

I said or

Oshea and McT were/are not good enough. Berbatov played with us as he never really bothered. If Pogba is lazy then you don't remember Berbatov.

United's problem is that we run like a business. A business will always go for the cheapest option if allowed to which means retaining Lingard is better then buying a new player and keeping a money making guy as CEO is better then appointing someone who actually understand football. That won't change unless the fans start showing their teeth and expect better. The club is owned by us guys. Ultimately if United go tits up we're the ones who'll still be there for it, not Jesse, not the Glazers but us. We should expect the club to be run better and any employee at the club to be good enough for his job and give his 100%

Aah, so that's why those razor-sharp nicknames like O'Shit, Carsick, and Rashfart have merit, to send a message to the top brass that the fans are ready to hold them to account? Genius!

Look, I agree about Mourinho - but it still comes down to Wummy saying that when he criticises, it's for the right reasons, but when others do it, they aren't real fans. Because guess what? Those people who are critical and negative also believe they do it for the right reasons.

Someone called Ole a "faggot" the other week. Whenever we go through a bad run of form that sort of personal abuse has become commonplace (I think a mod deleted it posthaste to be fair). He gets an unusual level of vitriol directed at him that I reckon stems from 'banter' social media pages and finds its way to here. The 'caf is supposed to be better than the swirling toxicity of social media football accounts, otherwise what's the point? I made a thread after the RBL game asking who might replace Ole if he's sacked the next day (Moyes and Jimmy Lumsden were an option, so it was slightly tongue in cheek). I'm not convinced he's going to get us back to where we want to be, but there is surely a difference between that, and the relentless nastiness and negativity that is becoming increasingly normalised.

 

[devilish]

Aah, so that's why those razor-sharp nicknames like O'Shit, Carsick, and Rashfart have merit, to send a message to the top brass that the fans are ready to hold them to account? Genius!

Someone called Ole a "faggot" the other week. Whenever we go through a bad run of form that sort of personal abuse has become commonplace (I think a mod deleted it posthaste to be fair). He gets an unusual level of vitriol directed at him that I reckon stems from 'banter' social media pages and finds its way to here. The 'caf is supposed to be better than the swirling toxicity of social media football accounts, otherwise what's the point? I made a thread after the RBL game asking who might replace Ole if he's sacked the next day (Moyes and Jimmy Lumsden were an option, so it was slightly tongue in cheek). I'm not convinced he's going to get us back to where we want to be, but there is surely a difference between that, and the relentless nastiness and negativity that is becoming increasingly normalised.

Never used Carsick and Rashfart TBH.

 

[Andycoleno9]

You lot are having your own arguments here. No one is saying that you can’t rate skill over passion. The issue is that you and others have called Ole “the worst manager in the league” and an “ embarrassment” consistently on here.
This is an actual quote from you, “If Ole by some miracle wins something, i am fecked here.” The issue isn’t that you rate some players over others, it’s that you’re supporting the club wrong.

First of all, that was a joke. Obvious one.

Anyway, i respect your view of support. Everybody has different way of "supporting" the club. Some want trophies, some rate wins, some want entertaining football, some want English core team etc....and it is all legit. Before last WC i had a chat with my friend who is football "romantic" like you. And we talked about what is better; win a cup like Greece won Euro or be second with beautiful football. He was for second one, i was for winning at any cost.

The thing what you do here is that you think that only your way is the right way. And that is just wrong. Why can't you accept that some of us have higher standards for this club and that we rate quality above some other stuff which you rate? Which again doesn't make any of us better or worse fan.
I personally rate quality above all. For me "knows the club", "plays with passion" and "leaves heart on the pitch" are not traits which should be primary for Man Utd player or manager. It is something which is good to have but quality comes first and second. And that is why i don't rate Ole or players like James or McT in our shirt. I don't dislike or hate any of them; i just think that they are not good enough.

I agree about abuse part. Having said that, i don't think that saying that xy player/coach is "awful" or "championship quality" is abuse. Calling names like donkey, fat cnut or Gollum is a abuse.

 

[devilish]

For fans surely sentiment is more important than winning. Whether Utd win a treble or get relegated, it doesn't really affect any of our lives in a material sense. We still have to do our daily jobs and face our share of problems. My boss isn't going to give me a raise because the team I support won the league.

So if you are looking at it purely from a logical point of view, it makes no sense for us to invest our time in 22 men in shorts running after a ball. The only thing that makes it worthwhile is sentiment and emotion.

For me United is more then just escapism. It's like a family member whom I wish all the best. In football terms that would be winning trophies. These days its less then back in the day. It has nothing to do with our lack of success but more to the fact that I had become a father and I love my girl more then I love football. However United still hold an important place in my heart. It bothers me to see shit players wearing the red shirt or good players who cant get arsed. Else I assure you I wouldn't be on this forum or at a supporters club in the first place. Why bother?

Of course you don't leave someone you love when it stops winning. I got mates who have big problems and it pains me to see them ruin their lives like that. If you think I moan in here then you haven't seen me with them. I also went to hell and back with them as well and that's what I like to believe I'll do for United. Which is exactly what I feel when I see the likes of Lingard and Jones stealing a living at the club I love. Its like watching your school mate feckin his life on drugs when he could achieve way more in life then that. Would I celebrate his lifestyle? Feck no.

Ultimately its down to perspective and maybe some frustration of not being able to change anything as my voice will be drowned by those yes men who think that switching their brain off and clapping at Jones when he bothers playing (and doing it badly) is what true support is. However as said, I've been supporting United since the day I was born and despite being called 'glory hunter' I am still here supporting the club why those who did called me that are not. I'd probably still be here even if we end up 3rd division. Don't ask me to clap those who take us there though. I am not, well, a wumminator

 

[Mortegard]

I completly agree with the OP. This forum have have become so toxic I have to ignore it after a loss, and in some cases wins after adequate performances.

I am genuinly concerned for many of the posters here. If your mood on this forum in any way reflects how you are doing outside of football, you must be miserable.

My visits here are have become less frequent and I generally enjoy the reddevils reddit community alot more as there is less negativity. How high you set the standard for the team does not really reflect how well you support it. The current weaknesses in the team are there for everybody to see, but it should not ruin our enjoyment that we currently are in a better position in the league than we have been for years.

 

[Hoboman]

Alright Yoda, that's all fair and everything but there's about ten people in this thread saying they post less because of nonsense opinions such as those

I'm sure there are several people who post less because of hysterical threads about Ole being tactical mastermind and third best manager in United history in spite of managing for 2 years and winning nothing yet.

Don't see a problem there, forum is a place for discussion and has it's formal rules after all. If someone's opinion doesn't contain personal unsults or breach forum's rules in any other way, there is no need to point them how they should support their favourite club.

For other cases there are moderators who can ensure that discussions will remain civil and level-headed.

 

[JPRouve]

Alright Yoda, that's all fair and everything but there's about ten people in this thread saying they post less because of nonsense opinions such as those

It's on them, the same way I don't really go into Ole's threads because the Ole in and Ole out camps get on my nerves. That's my problem not theirs.

 

[b82REZ]

Alright Yoda, that's all fair and everything but there's about ten people in this thread saying they post less because of nonsense opinions such as those

Does that not prove that you and them are in the minority?

 

[Bilbo]

They support United to be entertained. Most of these people spend good money for that so if United can't provide that then they have a right to be pissed off.

No they don't

 

[Olecurls99]

I'd love to know what happened to the lad who held the Ta Ra sign up after a few barren years of Fergie. Did he still spout his opinions on football in the pubs around Old Trafford? Was he slagged into extinction? Did he still focus on every poor result to castigate Sir Alex? Did he accept that he had gotten it completely wrong and kept his football opinions to himself thereafter? I wonder....

 

[devilish]

No they don't

So you think they pay good money to be crapped upon with shit football?

 

[Sied]

Carstick isn't mine. OShit, Mcfail and Barbietov are.

I'm surprised you're willing to admit that.

 

[devilish]

Alright Yoda, that's all fair and everything but there's about ten people in this thread saying they post less because of nonsense opinions such as those

So its ok to call people names if you're the one doing it? Interesting

 

[Andycoleno9]

I'm surprised you're willing to admit that.

Mcfail is funny, tbh.

 

[devilish]

I'm surprised you're willing to admit that.

Don't be. I owe everything I said and I am willing to admit when I am wrong. Back when I started posting in here, it was normal for people to change names and own multiple accounts only to abandon the account if they felt that they said some silly stuff on it. I never done that and I will never do that. I assure you though. Any perceived abuse I might have given towards some players is nowhere remote to the one thrown to me by the so called top reds. Guess what, its all water under the bridge.

 

[devilish]

Mcfail is funny, tbh.

Honest to god he's one of the worst players I've ever seen wearing the red shirt. He was a walking disaster. What happened to him btw? He was so much rated in here.

 

[Davìd Moyéz]

Nobody cares but for what it's worth I'm leaving the forum as of now. Not blaming anyone but it just isn't enjoyable how every single thread becomes an argument.

Realised I am wasting a lot of time on here not enjoying it.

Not sure how to delete my account so if one of the staff could sort that for me it would be appreciated

 

[Andycoleno9]

Honest to god he's one of the worst players I've ever seen wearing the red shirt. He was a walking disaster. What happened to him btw? He was so much rated in here.

Every young player is hugely rated at the start. As i remember, he went with Moyes in Sunderland.

 

[Wumminator]

Nobody cares but for what it's worth I'm leaving the forum as of now. Not blaming anyone but it just isn't enjoyable how every single thread becomes an argument.

Realised I am wasting a lot of time on here not enjoying it.

Not sure how to delete my account so if one of the staff could sort that for me it would be appreciated

Sorry to see you go.

 

[Wumminator]

Does that not prove that you and them are in the minority?

how on earth does that work?

 

[harms]

I find it a bit ridiculous that the debate is still alive.

1. Abusing players (and managerial staff) is wrong, whenever those are academy graduates, club legends or recent transfers from abroad. If you see those kind of posts, feel free to report them — the above-mentioned "Ole faggot" comment is a perfect example of such a comment that is not tolerated on here
2. Critique is not an abuse, and if people want to say that a certain player doesn't match their standards of a Manchester United player, they're free to do so (and others are free to debate them on that)
3. Trying to force your way of supporting the club on everyone as the one and only right way to do sounds a bit too similar to telling others whom and how they are supposed to love for my liking

 

[devilish]

Nobody cares but for what it's worth I'm leaving the forum as of now. Not blaming anyone but it just isn't enjoyable how every single thread becomes an argument.

Realised I am wasting a lot of time on here not enjoying it.

Not sure how to delete my account so if one of the staff could sort that for me it would be appreciated

sorry to see you go. If you indeed stay, you should avoid Wumms 'I am a better supporter then most of you' threads. They are quite regular and it always stir some shite.

 

[b82REZ]

how on earth does that work?

A few posters agreed with you, many more are currently disagreeing with you. Not that difficult surely?

 

[Wumminator]

A few posters agreed with you, many more are currently disagreeing with you. Not that difficult surely?

So you want the people who have stopped posting here completely to post here?

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

To be fair to WUM, didn’t he win “Top Red of the Year” last year? He’s already building his case to retain his title in 2021.

 

[Wumminator]

It's on them, the same way I don't really go into Ole's threads because the Ole in and Ole out camps get on my nerves. That's my problem not theirs.

I don’t see it being on them at all.

if I went to a pub and people there kept spitting in my face it’s not my fault when I stop going

 

[b82REZ]

So you want the people who have stopped posting here completely to post here?

When all else fails turn to the strawman

 

[Bilbo]

So you think they pay good money to be crapped upon with shit football?

Firstly I don't think the majority of RedCafe contribute any money beyond the TV subscription that they would pay for anyway. This has never felt like a site that is heavy with season ticket holders, and that's fine. United are a global club and this is a global forum, but this 'good money' argument doesn't hold water really.

With regards to the entertainment factor, I think that this is one of the biggest dividers amongst our fanbase. What needs to be happen for fans to be entertained? Is it only titles and crushing victories that qualify? The line on this is different for everyone and that is what causes so much of the toxicity we see here. Its where the arguments come in about what a true supporter should be. Sure, people can support a club any way they like, who gives a shit, but you seem to be the type of fan I would liken to a middle aged guy trapped in a failed marriage. He loved her dearly once upon a time, she was everything he wanted her to be, but those days are gone and he's stuck with her.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

I liked Carrick and Park. OShit was never a United level player and I stick to that. I was called all sort of names as well, it didn't made me lose an hour worth of sleep. I believe players should do the same, after all, they are actually paid very well for what they do while we pay their salary.

Many top reds had left the forum the moment things started getting sour while I am still here. The same happened at supporters clubs as well. We 'moaners' and 'glory hunters' still support the club and show our passion to it while many of those who used to proclaim eternal love to it, no questions asked, had deleted any link with United because 'the club isn't what it used to be' and it 'became too toxic' which is funny considering that the only thing that changed was lack of trophies.

All I can say is that I spend weekends with a bad mood whenever United lose so I don't need someone with a stick up his arse to tell me how to support my club.

I am almost certain that some members of this forum would rather pack the team with homegrown players & finish top 6 then sign quality foreign players & win titles. They are absolutely obsessed with “the United way” which is really just the Busby way if we’re honest, which was more then half a century ago. People use the class of 92 to deflect that Fergie relied heavily on foreign signings for all of his title wins.

 

[Wumminator]

I am almost certain that some members of this forum would rather pack the team with homegrown players & finish top 6 then sign quality foreign players & win titles. They are absolutely obsessed with “the United way” which is really just the Busby way if we’re honest, which was more then half a century ago. People use the class of 92 to deflect that Fergie relied heavily on foreign signings for all of his title wins.

Who on Earth has mentioned foreign players ffs. Why do you lot keep talking about this?

 

[Wumminator]

When all else fails turn to the strawman

there is literally multiple people here saying they can’t stand how the forum is and are posting less because of it.

 

[JPRouve]

I don’t see it being on them at all.

if I went to a pub and people there kept spitting in my face it’s not my fault when I stop going

What kind of point is that. These posters aren't targeted, they simply can't accept that others may disagree with them and see thing differently which is definitely on them. And bot sides have their handful of obnoxious posters.

 

[JPRouve]

there is literally multiple people here saying they can’t stand how the forum is and are posting less because of it.

And there are hundreds of people that are happy with the forum and happily post.

 

[Wumminator]

What kind of point is that. These posters aren't targeted, they simply can't accept that others may disagree with them and see thing differently which is definitely on them. And bot sides have their handful of obnoxious posters.

No. It is not a “both sides” issue. Implying that Ferguson needs nappies soon or calling players “rashbeck” or telling a manager to “feck off” isn’t a both sides thing.
They need fecking off.