Jose Tactics and Pogba

[RoyH1]

Owen is so thick. He has one more brain cell than horse, which means that at least he doesn't shit himself at parades.

Regarding Pogba, he's an offensive midfielder and should be played as such. He's no good as a holding midfielder.

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

L'Equipe says today that Pogba regrets coming back. Seems there is definitely tension there between Jose and Pogba.

 

[E-mal]

That's absolute crap, the narrative on here has been he's useless in a midfield two and a waste basically since we signed him.

Why do you even bother arguing with these lots, they 'd twist even the obvious to absolve mourinho of any blame.
Martial was playing very well on the left, he came and changed his position without even trying Sanchez on the right considering he is a far better player than Martial on the right.
Every man kept telling him we are a better team playing in a midfield 3 but he has remained stubborn. Matic is not very mobile and Pogba's mobility is mostly in attack.
Is obvious what needs to be done but what do we know ; we are some random person on the Internet.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Is funny how?

I wasn't adamant that Pogba is better than x,y, or z. I just gave my opinion and never did i try to shove it down someone's throat or push it aggressively.

Why is it that when someone is physical, he's not suited for an attacking midfielder's role? Is like saying, if player x is physical, he most likely lack the finesse. Same nonsense Lukaku has received since people tend to compare him with Drogba.

Are you using Lukaku as an example of physical players having finesse or am I missing the point?

Also, I'm not saying that a strong player always lacks finesse, I'm just saying that playing Pogba as an attacking midfielder is a waste of his physical talent. I also thinks he lacks the finesse, De Bruyne and Eriksen have, but that's not the point.

 

[SwSw]

Are you using Lukaku as an example of physical players having finesse or am I missing the point?

Also, I'm not saying that a strong player always lacks finesse, I'm just saying that playing Pogba as an attacking midfielder is a waste of his physical talent. I also thinks he lacks the finesse, De Bruyne and Eriksen have, but that's not the point.

Lukaku generally gets labeled as a target men because he is big. All physicality, not much skill, which is not true.

Why? I'd say is a bonus to have an extra skill set.

I don't believe he lacks the finesse KDB or Eriksen have. Pogba can shoot with both feet, better dribbling skills, his passing is equally good, if not better and he is pretty good at galloping up-field with the ball. Let's not forget how he turn Koscielny. Mixture of skill and physicality.

 

[Leftback99]

The revisionism in here is incredible, no one thought he was an attacking midfielder until a few week ago and everyone was content Matic would free him up. Suddenly him playing in a midfield two is like asking him to play in net.

In fact its always fun to have a quick look through the OPs posts in threads, surprise surprise completely contradictory.

I wouldn't say no one thought he was an attacking midfielder but when he was out injured all the talk was of him coming back in to replace Herrera in the 2, not further forward.
His return has not had the impact many expected, we're weaker defensively and barely any better going forward, so now people have moved onto blaming his position.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Maybe the issue is Matic?

As far as I see Pogba is doing the playmaking, Matic is rarely doing the sweeping up like he did early on this season. His legs seem to have gone.

Pogba and Herrera actually had a fairly good partnership going last year, maybe they should be given the chance again?

For all the lazy Pogba stuff Matic seems to just jog around the pitch and can't keep up with anybody driving through midfield. For a DM that's pretty worrying.

 

[Ban]

L'Equipe says today that Pogba regrets coming back. Seems there is definitely tension there between Jose and Pogba.

They say he might regret.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Lukaku generally gets labeled as a target men because he is big. All physicality, not much skill, which is not true.

Why? I'd say is a bonus to have an extra skill set.

I don't believe he lacks the finesse KDB or Eriksen have. Pogba can shoot with both feet, better dribbling skills, his passing is equally good, if not better and he is pretty good at galloping up-field with the ball. Let's not forget how he turn Koscielny. Mixture of skill and physicality.

Fair enough if you think he's better ofcourse, that's where our opinions differ then

don't get me wrong though, Pogba is an amazing player. Just sucks to see him under performing a bit.

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

They say he might regret.

Ah I see. My French isn't as good as it once was .

 

[PlayerOne]

Maybe the issue is Matic?

As far as I see Pogba is doing the playmaking, Matic is rarely doing the sweeping up like he did early on this season. His legs seem to have gone.

Pogba and Herrera actually had a fairly good partnership going last year, maybe they should be given the chance again?

For all the lazy Pogba stuff Matic seems to just jog around the pitch and can't keep up with anybody driving through midfield. For a DM that's pretty worrying.

I think there's something in that. Might be down to the fact Matic is being overplayed and it's starting to catch up with him. It did seem like he covered more ground earlier in the season, used to press up higher and win the ball more.

It's clear both Matic and Pogba need more help in the middle, what we have now isn't working.

 

[Trizy]

Matic isn't tired nor are his legs ''gone'', jesus.. We've had nothing but big breaks between games in the last month along with a trip aboard. The problem isn't fatigue with Matic, the problem is, on Pogba's return he hasn't looked arsed at all. He's going forward the whole time in a 2 man midfield, leaving Matic to try deal with an entire midfield on his own.

Do you guys watch us play at all

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

The comparisons with Juventus are absolutely ridiculous. The current United side can't even hold a candle to the 14/15 Juventus team in terms of quality. People should really stop drawing parallels between the two sides. It's amazing how the Youtuber in a video above understands many of the problems but then uses the conclusions to support a pre-made opinion.

Pogba's lack of positional discipline won't go away in a midfield of three. The pockets of space in the right half-spaces which can be exploited by the opposition in the 4231 will become pockets of space in the left half-spaces. And for all its vices, the 4231 gives us the opportunity to accommodate one of Lingard/Mata in the attacking line, players who possess good off the ball movement while having Sanchez and Martial on the pitch too. They're not exactly aces in the role but they're all we've got atm. Most envision a 433 with Pogba and an attacking trident of Martial/Sanchez/Lukaku, all players who want the ball at their feet. It's not exactly a match made in heaven. Pogba on the left against Everton worked because Lingard was in beastly mode and his movement was causing all kinds of problems to Everton's defence.

Back to Juventus and Pogba's contribution as a more advanced midfielder. That's all right and well but let's take a moment to look at this particular Juventus side Pogba played in. Juventus' left-hand side in their low block 352/442 diamond consisted of Bonucci/Chiellini, Evra and (more centrally) Pirlo and Vidal. Let's see... two of the very best ball playing defenders, a left winger who can also take care of the ball, the deep-lying play-maker of all deep-lying play-makers and the ultimate b2b machine. No problems getting the ball further up the pitch to Pogba. With Jones, Matic, Herrera and Young we'll probably get the "don't try this at home" version of what Juventus were doing.

It's a weird predicament because Pogba feels uncomfortable in a particular role when he seems to be the only one who can provide a solution there. There's not enough creativity deeper in the midfield without him, there are no ball-playing centre-halves (with Bailly and Lindelof not playing) and the full-backs don't seem able to cope with covering the whole length of the pitch for us to switch the focus of the build-up toward the wide areas (although Mourinho should be looking into that). It's never that simple. Building a side around Pogba in a more advanced role in the midfield might not be a snap of the fingers away. I will take time and maybe a whole new plan in the summer.

 

[sp_107]

Very fair point. I think however this was the expectation of Mou.

We had scholes an attacking midfielder excelled next to Roy in a 2 man midfield

So it depends on players capability !!


As a midfield player I think they should adapt to the situation !!


Having said that he is delivering his best performances in a 3-man midfield so why not manager stick to that ? I just can't understand Mou most of the times !!

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The comparisons with Juventus are absolutely ridiculous. The current United side can't even hold a candle to the 14/15 Juventus team in terms of quality. People should really really stop drawing parallels between the two sides. It's amazing how the Youtuber in a video above understands many of the problems but then uses the conclusions to support a pre-made opinion.

Pogba's lack of positional discipline won't go away in a midfield of three. The pockets of space in the right half-spaces which can be exploited by the opposition in the 4231 will become pockets of spaces in the left half-spaces. And for all its vices, the 4231 gives us the opportunity to accommodate one of Lingard/Mata in the attacking line, players who possess good off the ball movement while having Sanchez and Martial on the pitch too. They're not exactly aces in the role but they're all we've got atm. Most envision a 433 with Pogba and an attacking trident of Martial/Sanchez/Lukaku, all players who want the ball at their feet. It's not exactly a match made in heaven. Pogba on the left against Everton worked because Lingard was in beastly mode and his movement was causing all kinds of problems to Everton's defence.

Back to Juventus and Pogba's contribution as a more advanced midfielder. That's all right and well but let's take a moment to look at this particular Juventus side Pogba played in. Juventus' left-hand side in their low block 352/442 diamond consisted of Bonucci/Chiellini, Evra and (more centrally) Pirlo and Vidal. Let's see... two of the very best ball playing defenders, a left winger who can also take care of the ball, the deep-lying play-maker of all deep-lying play-makers and the ultimate b2b machine. No problems getting the ball further up the pitch to Pogba. With Jones, Matic, Herrera and Young we'll probably get the "don't try this at home" version of what Juventus were doing.

It's a weird predicament because Pogba feels uncomfortable in a particular role when he seems to be the only one who can provide a solution there. There's not enough creativity deeper in the midfield without him, there are no ball-playing centre-halves (with Bailly and Lindelof not playing) and the full-backs don't seem able to cope with covering the whole length of the pitch for us to switch the focus of the build-up toward the wide areas (although Mourinho should be looking into that). It's never that simple. Building a side around Pogba in a more advanced role in the midfield might not be a snap of the fingers away. I will take time and maybe a whole new plan in the summer.

Harsh but fair. And a fact that repeatedly gets glossed over by the "Let Pogba be Pogba" brigade is that Everton wasn't the first time he's ever played for us in that formation. It's been used before. A few times. And it sure as shit didn't come across as the solution to all our woes in those games.

Good post, by the way.

 

[UweBein]

And Gerrard was far better than Pogba in 'finishing'. Lampard was incomparably better at 'finishing' than Pogba.
If United withdrew an attacker and played Pogba as purely an attacking midfielder, to draw comparisons with other teams, to justify that move, he would have to play that position better than Eriksen and De Bruyne. Quite frankly he couldn't, he doesn't have the brain or particular skill set to do it.

I am not quite sure. With Lukaku upfront they could become a great duo. You don't know that for sure, unless you actually try that for several games. (Not try it in one game, and abandon the concept forever after that. )

 

[Sunny Jim]

We had scholes an attacking midfielder excelled next to Roy in a 2 man midfield

So it depends on players capability !!

To be fair prime Keane was like having 2 players in one. Amazing player.

As a midfield player I think they should adapt to the situation !!


Having said that he is delivering his best performances in a 3-man midfield so why not manager stick to that ? I just can't understand Mou most of the times !!

 

[SwSw]

The comparisons with Juventus are absolutely ridiculous. The current United side can't even hold a candle to the 14/15 Juventus team in terms of quality. People should really stop drawing parallels between the two sides. It's amazing how the Youtuber in a video above understands many of the problems but then uses the conclusions to support a pre-made opinion.

Pogba's lack of positional discipline won't go away in a midfield of three. The pockets of space in the right half-spaces which can be exploited by the opposition in the 4231 will become pockets of space in the left half-spaces. And for all its vices, the 4231 gives us the opportunity to accommodate one of Lingard/Mata in the attacking line, players who possess good off the ball movement while having Sanchez and Martial on the pitch too. They're not exactly aces in the role but they're all we've got atm. Most envision a 433 with Pogba and an attacking trident of Martial/Sanchez/Lukaku, all players who want the ball at their feet. It's not exactly a match made in heaven. Pogba on the left against Everton worked because Lingard was in beastly mode and his movement was causing all kinds of problems to Everton's defence.

Back to Juventus and Pogba's contribution as a more advanced midfielder. That's all right and well but let's take a moment to look at this particular Juventus side Pogba played in. Juventus' left-hand side in their low block 352/442 diamond consisted of Bonucci/Chiellini, Evra and (more centrally) Pirlo and Vidal. Let's see... two of the very best ball playing defenders, a left winger who can also take care of the ball, the deep-lying play-maker of all deep-lying play-makers and the ultimate b2b machine. No problems getting the ball further up the pitch to Pogba. With Jones, Matic, Herrera and Young we'll probably get the "don't try this at home" version of what Juventus were doing.

It's a weird predicament because Pogba feels uncomfortable in a particular role when he seems to be the only one who can provide a solution there. There's not enough creativity deeper in the midfield without him, there are no ball-playing centre-halves (with Bailly and Lindelof not playing) and the full-backs don't seem able to cope with covering the whole length of the pitch for us to switch the focus of the build-up toward the wide areas (although Mourinho should be looking into that). It's never that simple. Building a side around Pogba in a more advanced role in the midfield might not be a snap of the fingers away. I will take time and maybe a whole new plan in the summer.

1. That's why you have two safety nets instead of one immobile safety net. A back 6 with 2 midfielder doing the leg work should be alright.

2. A 4-2-3-1 with that lineup is worst. We basically have 4 man defense + Matic. The problem is lack of movement off the ball. Pretty annoyed that they always wants the ball to their feet, with Martial/Sanchez being the biggest culprits.

3. A front four of Pogba/Alexis/Lukaku/Martial is better than the front five you mentioned. I'm not saying attacking wise but the entire balance of the team.

4.Hopefully, we start playing Lindelof and Bailly soon. I think buying 2 ball playing midfielders in the summer would help.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

1. That's why you have two safety nets instead of one immobile safety net. A back 6 with 2 midfielder doing the leg work should be alright.

2. A 4-2-3-1 with that lineup is worst. We basically have 4 man defense + Matic. The problem is lack of movement off the ball. Pretty annoyed that they always wants the ball to their feet, with Martial/Sanchez being the biggest culprits.

3. A front four of Pogba/Alexis/Lukaku/Martial is better than the front five you mentioned. I'm not saying attacking wise but the entire balance of the team.

4.Hopefully, we start playing Lindelof and Bailly soon. I think buying 2 ball playing midfielders in the summer would help.

Defensively we are always going to have problems, if we are constantly looking for a way to "hide away" one player or another from the midfield batle. The change of formation will only change where the open spaces will be. And modern top sides have the ability to expose them. Now, it's the right half-space. Last season, City murdered us with Silva/KdB dropping very deep and using their long passes to tear our two deep defensive banks apart. Pogba can't be freed up in the way most imagine on here. Even at Juventus he had a role to perform and considerable ground to cover.

Secondly, i' m not advocating for 4231 to stay. I already mentioned that Pogba can improve his numbers with a more advanced role. The issue is that when you are a low block transition side, you need to be good at transitions. Pogba's creativity, his skills with the ball and the fact that he can protect it very well are essential to this United side. If he doesn't want to do it, we'll be forced to attack against organized defences more than we wish. And without off the ball movement from the attacking three but with players waiting for the ball to come to them we won't be making it easier for ourselves. For example, Martial doesn' t look as good as he was not because he switched sides but because he now has to provide attacking movement with Alexis being at the epicentre of our attack.

If the transitions become better, these three will find spaces to exploit and it will work. But until this happens, Lingard and Mata will have to play their part because of their different skillset.

I agree about Bailly and Lindelof. Anyway, i believe the main issue lies deeper in the midfield. We will see, hopefully i'm wrong and it is as simple as a change of formation.

 

[SwSw]

Defensively we are always going to have problems, if we are constantly looking for a way to "hide away" one player or another from the midfield batle. The change of formation will only change where the open spaces will be. And modern top sides have the ability to expose them. Now, it's the right half-space. Last season, City murdered us with Silva/KdB dropping very deep and using their long passes to tear our two deep defensive banks apart. Pogba can't be freed up in the way most imagine on here. Even at Juventus he had a role to perform and considerable ground to cover.

Secondly, i' m not advocating for 4231 to stay. I already mentioned that Pogba can improve his numbers with a more advanced role. The issue is that when you are a low block transition side, you need to be good at transitions. Pogba's creativity, his skills with the ball and the fact that he can protect it very well are essential to this United side. If he doesn't want to do it, we'll be forced to attack against organized defences more than we wish. And without off the ball movement from the attacking three but with players waiting for the ball to come to them we won't be making it easier for ourselves. For example, Martial doesn' t look as good as he was not because he switched sides but because he now has to provide attacking movement with Alexis being at the epicentre of our attack.

If the transitions become better, these three will find spaces to exploit and it will work. But until this happens, Lingard and Mata will have to play their part because of their different skillset.

I agree about Bailly and Lindelof. Anyway, i believe the main issue lies deeper in the midfield. We will see, hopefully i'm wrong and it is as simple as a change of formation.

Nah, I agree with you that our issues lies with the midfield.

I generally feel that by using a 4-3-3, we are able to liberate Pogba and thus he would be doing less defensive work. The Juventus model is a good idea if we can get a solid midfielder to play along side Matic.

I think the reason why Mourinho loves Lingard is because he provides off the ball movement and he harries the opposition. Can't really say the same about Rashford and Martial.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Matic isn't tired nor are his legs ''gone'', jesus.. We've had nothing but big breaks between games in the last month along with a trip aboard. The problem isn't fatigue with Matic, the problem is, on Pogba's return he hasn't looked arsed at all. He's going forward the whole time in a 2 man midfield, leaving Matic to try deal with an entire midfield on his own.

Do you guys watch us play at all

Watch him chase shadows against Tottenham and Newcastle, it was embarrasing.

 

[Nitewolf]

If Castles is right and there is conflict between Pogba and the Manager, then its really goodbye Pogba!
I am not convinced he was ever a Mourinho purchase, more a 'present' from Woodward to a new manager who was not going to say no, but who has realised over 18 months what Fergie knew some years ago.
Mourinho is absolutely correct to state that he expects a midfield player to be able to play in midfield with all the duties a midfielder has, including defending. This silly idea that Pogba is some sort of leftish no10 is absurd. He has none of the attributes of a top no10. He doesn't think fast enough, is not adept in tight spaces, doesn't quickly play one touch passes, doesn't circulate the ball with quick passes, doesn't provide any meaningful threat in the opposition area, doesn't score from free kicks. Compare him to Eriksen or De Bruyne; its a joke!
If Pogba can't play as a proper midfielder then he has to be sold and quickly before his festering infantile behaviour creates real problems.

OK. I've read so many negative opinions about Pogba so far, I picked yours simply cause you - sorts of - summed up all of them.

1. Mourinho's point that all midfield players should know how to play in all midfield positions doesn't make any sense. Zidane, Isco, KDB, Frank Lampard were midfielders, I don't remember any of them sitting back in front of their centerbacks!

2. Pogba didn't produce in a number10 position: just a simple question, who is your top player in assists this season? The main reason we were hammering teams in last minutes early in the season was the fact that Mourinho used to change the system in the last minutes from 451 to 433 by introducing Fellaini in the midfield, allowing Pogba to roam freely in the opposition area behind lines.

3. Comparing Pogba to KDB is nonsense at this moment. You don't see Guardiola playing him in deep midfield role, give Pogba the same freedom and support and network of passing options then compare him to Erikson and KDB.

Side point: Maybe KDB ran away from Chelsea because he was asked to do the same task Mourinho is asking Pogba to do now. Since every MD player should know how to do all roles!!

4. Infantile! This is his career. Players aren't chess pieces or puppets. This is a player you invested in heavily and payed a huge sum of money because he is a specialist and a master in his position. Play him in his position ffs.


The point is, if you look In Mourinho's teams, he played 442 with Porto, 433 with Chelsea, and 451 with Inter Milan. So he knows how to implement 433, Lampard in Chelsea was his Pogba.
The difference is he had a good team overall, look at our backline, we have the worst Fullbacks in the top six teams by a mile, we have one decent DMF and all the rest are either damaged goods to begin with or got damaged by our stubborn managers. We lack balance in backline and MF, in need for 2 midfielders and two Fullbacks, yet we go and buy Sanchez to complicate a nice setup in the Frontline. This summaries our problem: a lack of vision and planning.

But hey, Pogba is the problem. Cause he's an easy escape.

 

[breakout67]

Watch him chase shadows against Tottenham and Newcastle, it was embarrasing.

Matic had a 'poor' game because Eriksen and Alli were getting into the space around him the whole game. What people forgot was that, that's where our other midfielder should be .

In the Spurs game, there was a point where there were THREE free tottenham players right in front of our defence while Matic was helping Ashley Young because he was outnumbered. Pogba was not even in the picture.

 

[Scarecrow]

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[Smores]

That's absolute crap, the narrative on here has been he's useless in a midfield two and a waste basically since we signed him.

Well thanks for your opinion but its not crap because i bothered to look back before i posted, shame you didn't do the same.

Yes we know Pogba has previously produced his best in a 3 but search back across Pogba threads and you'll quickly see that no one really thought he was useless in a two. In fact this time last year you had "Pogba's transformation under Jose" as one example.

Oddly there's plenty of threads bemoaning his mentality and having to fit him in.

He's played in a two and a three for us and across both he's had mixed games. He's more than capable of either yet because of his bad form we've got people crying its not fair. We've seen this countless times before for other players, excuses to cover bad form.

 

[Raees]

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Backs up what I've been saying for France.. he's never really shone in a 2 man midfield.

Whether people like it or not, his best football in his career to date has been part of a three man midfield and on the left.

Whether that is the answer to United's prayers and will lead us to trophies galore, I don't know but for Pogba 100% it is his best position and where he should be played week in week out and allowed to blossom there.

At age 27, Pogba could be a world class attacking midfielder but I don't think with even the greatest effort on his part will he ever be a world class central midfielder. That is the point which everyone should be agreeing on.

In what position is he likely to grow into a match-winning asset at the highest level? Play him there then, especially if as it stands for both France and United.. the teams are suffering for trying to shoehorn him there. When he plays there, both teams look rather disjointed both in possession and out of it.

 

[sincher]

Don't see it that way. Can Pogba defend properly? Yes! Can he be bothered? Apparently not.

See also Fellaini.

That said, there are clearly times when we should play a 4-3-3, and away to Spurs is prime among them. Against Newcastle, it seemed clear that he had a problem early in the match and should either not have started or should have come off earlier.

 

[manunited1919]

It’s time for Mourinho to earn his pay. He was brought in because he is a big manager who should be able to handle the pressure of a big club and deal with the big egos of players such as Pogba and Sanchez.

 

[redIndianDevil]

OK. I've read so many negative opinions about Pogba so far, I picked yours simply cause you - sorts of - summed up all of them.

1. Mourinho's point that all midfield players should know how to play in all midfield positions doesn't make any sense. Zidane, Isco, KDB, Frank Lampard were midfielders, I don't remember any of them sitting back in front of their centerbacks!

2. Pogba didn't produce in a number10 position: just a simple question, who is your top player in assists this season? The main reason we were hammering teams in last minutes early in the season was the fact that Mourinho used to change the system in the last minutes from 451 to 433 by introducing Fellaini in the midfield, allowing Pogba to roam freely in the opposition area behind lines.

3. Comparing Pogba to KDB is nonsense at this moment. You don't see Guardiola playing him in deep midfield role, give Pogba the same freedom and support and network of passing options then compare him to Erikson and KDB.

Side point: Maybe KDB ran away from Chelsea because he was asked to do the same task Mourinho is asking Pogba to do now. Since every MD player should know how to do all roles!!

4. Infantile! This is his career. Players aren't chess pieces or puppets. This is a player you invested in heavily and payed a huge sum of money because he is a specialist and a master in his position. Play him in his position ffs.


The point is, if you look In Mourinho's teams, he played 442 with Porto, 433 with Chelsea, and 451 with Inter Milan. So he knows how to implement 433, Lampard in Chelsea was his Pogba.
The difference is he had a good team overall, look at our backline, we have the worst Fullbacks in the top six teams by a mile, we have one decent DMF and all the rest are either damaged goods to begin with or got damaged by our stubborn managers. We lack balance in backline and MF, in need for 2 midfielders and two Fullbacks, yet we go and buy Sanchez to complicate a nice setup in the Frontline. This summaries our problem: a lack of vision and planning.

But hey, Pogba is the problem. Cause he's an easy escape.

Excellent post mate. And that too a first one.

 

[Manny]

1. That's why you have two safety nets instead of one immobile safety net. A back 6 with 2 midfielder doing the leg work should be alright.

Not even that. With an extra body in the CM areas (including a defensive savvy #8) those pockets of space can be reduced in a different way but will ultimately be covered by the deeper more focused DM. On top of that, the opposition will be far more hesitant to push their central midfielders into those areas knowing Pogba will break with ball when the move breaks down.

The idea that we'll suddenly be more exploited by replacing the #10 with a hardworking #8 in itself, is laughable.

 

[midnightmare]

Pogba lacks discipline and basics is the biggest myth. He isn't suited to play midfield 2 doesn't mean he lacks discipline.

Which midfield great was played in midfield with lot of defensive duty and asked to track runners? Most midfield greats played in attacking teams, not pragmatic teams.

Also this is repeating same thing again and again but with different poster.

OK - so which classy matches has he shone in for us in a 4-3-3? Also, why would you say he "isn't suited" to play in a midfield 2? If it's because he leaves open spaces, I'd argue that this is the fallout of lacking positional discipline. You can't get away with that (regardless of formation) against the top teams and asking a manager to accept this as an issue and just mitigate it by compromising the overall attack should then logically demand attacking output far above what Pogba has shown. A Ronaldo gets away with not defending as much simply because of his astonishing goal tally.

Highly debatable to be honest. Pragmatic and attacking are not mutually exclusive to my mind. None of the great Italian teams was built without a very sound defence and I don't think anyone can argue that Italy produced a number of greats. Not even the "swashbuckling" 1988-1993 AC Milan team could be said to not have been "pragmatic". Why not list out the midfield greats who had no defensive responsibilities and who required managers to play an additional player to cover for this shortfall? I'm open to being proven wrong - but a list and examples would help prove your point.

I know that a lot of teams add an extra midfielder for "big" games, but how many play even minnows with extra defensive cover because one of the central midfielders can't be relied upon if the ball is lost?

Note: I didn't see most of his Juve games (only CL and the big matches) so can't comment on how much defensive responsibility he carried at Juve.

 

[Trizy]

Watch him chase shadows against Tottenham and Newcastle, it was embarrasing.

Indeed in a managerial/tactical point of view. No player in the history of the game is gonna win a 3v1 midfield battle.

 

[GM K]

It was quite obviously a 4-3-3.

I’d quite happily see anyone who suggests we weren’t playing this against Newcastle banned.

Some people clearly need to grow up.

Bang on.

There are way too many excuses for Pogba in this forum.

In that Newcastle game (and in the Spurs game), he passed poorly, he jogged around as if he didn't care, he killed attacking moves, he failed to track players etc. What in the world did that have to do with formation? He played rubbish. End of story. I want to see players put in the shift and do all the basics of football well before I start listening to how formation is not getting the best out of them. Pogba needs to step up a level and the whole world knows this. That's the plain reality. He is the most complete midfield player in the world in terms of potential if you ask me. He can play a holding midfield role comfortably if he puts in a shift and we all know he has done it extremely well before. He has all the qualities - his passing range, physicality, vision, dribbling skills, etc. If his manager says play there today, I want to see him run his socks off and put his heart into the game not showboat and moan about being asked to defend. Didn't we just watch Juventus, Madrid, PSG and Spurs in the CL? Was I the only one who saw attacking players defending and defending players attacking? That's modern football. No room for being a prima donna. When you play in the big league, you run, you tackle, you fight. I want to see our players do this and then, I'll be ready for the tactics talk.

Will Pogba be better playing on the left of a 4-3-3? Maybe but wherever he plays, let's see him show us what we know he's got.

 

[GM K]

The comparisons with Juventus are absolutely ridiculous. The current United side can't even hold a candle to the 14/15 Juventus team in terms of quality. People should really stop drawing parallels between the two sides. It's amazing how the Youtuber in a video above understands many of the problems but then uses the conclusions to support a pre-made opinion.

Pogba's lack of positional discipline won't go away in a midfield of three. The pockets of space in the right half-spaces which can be exploited by the opposition in the 4231 will become pockets of space in the left half-spaces. And for all its vices, the 4231 gives us the opportunity to accommodate one of Lingard/Mata in the attacking line, players who possess good off the ball movement while having Sanchez and Martial on the pitch too. They're not exactly aces in the role but they're all we've got atm. Most envision a 433 with Pogba and an attacking trident of Martial/Sanchez/Lukaku, all players who want the ball at their feet. It's not exactly a match made in heaven. Pogba on the left against Everton worked because Lingard was in beastly mode and his movement was causing all kinds of problems to Everton's defence.

Back to Juventus and Pogba's contribution as a more advanced midfielder. That's all right and well but let's take a moment to look at this particular Juventus side Pogba played in. Juventus' left-hand side in their low block 352/442 diamond consisted of Bonucci/Chiellini, Evra and (more centrally) Pirlo and Vidal. Let's see... two of the very best ball playing defenders, a left winger who can also take care of the ball, the deep-lying play-maker of all deep-lying play-makers and the ultimate b2b machine. No problems getting the ball further up the pitch to Pogba. With Jones, Matic, Herrera and Young we'll probably get the "don't try this at home" version of what Juventus were doing.

It's a weird predicament because Pogba feels uncomfortable in a particular role when he seems to be the only one who can provide a solution there. There's not enough creativity deeper in the midfield without him, there are no ball-playing centre-halves (with Bailly and Lindelof not playing) and the full-backs don't seem able to cope with covering the whole length of the pitch for us to switch the focus of the build-up toward the wide areas (although Mourinho should be looking into that). It's never that simple. Building a side around Pogba in a more advanced role in the midfield might not be a snap of the fingers away. I will take time and maybe a whole new plan in the summer.

This is an absolutely brilliant post.

Spot on.

Exactly what I have tried to say a few times here.

 

[GM K]

Don't see it that way. Can Pogba defend properly? Yes! Can he be bothered? Apparently not.

See also Fellaini.

That said, there are clearly times when we should play a 4-3-3, and away to Spurs is prime among them. Against Newcastle, it seemed clear that he had a problem early in the match and should either not have started or should have come off earlier.

Why should we have played 4-3-3 against Spurs?

 

[deafepl]

I am very aware that we don't have players for 4-3-3 now

1. You can't play your best-left winger martial on the right where he can't perform so well on the right flank and you know it.

2. You can't use Lukaku as target man when we want to dominate possession, he's more effective when we attempting a lot of crosses coming from fullback or winger or hoof it to Lukaku, otherwive, there's no point in using him in dominating possession and we didn't play to his strength. Martial should have been playing this as 9 in possession based.

3. You can't play Lingard for relies on his brilliant moment that creates a goal out from nothing, Lingard is not pure 10 that will link midfield and attack well and are not a playmaker, he's a pure profiler as attacking midfielder like Fekr, not like Ozil or Erikson.

4. You can't be wanting Pogba to be a playmaker, bring the ball forward, join attacker in the third final, pick a magic pass, tackle, protect at back and defend at same time, multitask for Pogba, but honestly, Is it really okay to force Pogba to do everything you want from him but not Matic? Pogba is suited as the box to box player in 2 midfield but if you want Pogba to do everything, use more midfielder to share responsibility tasks or go 3-5-2 if wanting to use two midfielders only but will free some of Pogba's defensive responsibility with 5 defenders at back with one of them may join midfield battle like Lindelof who are good on balls while being calm under pressure or Lingard/Sanchez to come deep to help and press high.

5 Press high will force opponents to make mistakes, an example of City vs Liverpool 3-4 and Porto vs Liverpool 0-5. like we did against Arsenal, we forced them to make a mistake instead of waiting for them to make mistakes, it has worked for us, why didn't you take that approach to opponents?

6. If our right flank is underperforming, nobody can do that so well on the right flank, assuming you want Sanchez to play on left, why bother using 4-2-3-1? Use 3-5-2 formation will bring out best of everyone, most of the games we focused on the left flank where we attack but it becomes more predictable for opponents as it goes, we didn't attack the right flank as often as it is underperforming since the start of the season, yet you didn't address this issue. I don't know why 4-2-3-1 is necessary, it is like we are playing with 10 men but that's the truth.

However, the 3-5-2 formation will take less defensive out of Pogba and give them freedom with 5 defenders at back including wingback but will do his defensive job if he's not overwhelmed with the work you asked him to do everything as I mentioned previously. Our 3-5-2 form record is pretty good, we played that formation 7 time this season and have won 6 games out of 7 games and lost once. I failed to see how you didn't use this formation against City and Spurs when it matters instead of 4231. 3-5-2 is more effective than 4-2-3-1.

 

[SwSw]

Bang on.

There are way too many excuses for Pogba in this forum.

In that Newcastle game (and in the Spurs game), he passed poorly, he jogged around as if he didn't care, he killed attacking moves, he failed to track players etc. What in the world did that have to do with formation? He played rubbish. End of story. I want to see players put in the shift and do all the basics of football well before I start listening to how formation is not getting the best out of them. Pogba needs to step up a level and the whole world knows this. That's the plain reality. He is the most complete midfield player in the world in terms of potential if you ask me. He can play a holding midfield role comfortably if he puts in a shift and we all know he has done it extremely well before. He has all the qualities - his passing range, physicality, vision, dribbling skills, etc. If his manager says play there today, I want to see him run his socks off and put his heart into the game not showboat and moan about being asked to defend. Didn't we just watch Juventus, Madrid, PSG and Spurs in the CL? Was I the only one who saw attacking players defending and defending players attacking? That's modern football. No room for being a prima donna. When you play in the big league, you run, you tackle, you fight. I want to see our players do this and then, I'll be ready for the tactics talk.

Will Pogba be better playing on the left of a 4-3-3? Maybe but wherever he plays, let's see him show us what we know he's got.

And all this came after we sign Sanchez?

The consensus is, we play better in a 4-3-3 with TWO midfielders behind Pogba. Lingard was in the 3 that day and he isn't exactly the type to do the defensive work. We need someone who is dedicated to sit and help out defensively. Lingard is just a band aid. Same applies to Pogba.

What we doing now isn't sustainable. That being said, the Pogba's effort isn't there as well. Saw the game between RM and PSG and was really impressed with Modric and Kroos work rate.

 

[breakout67]

I'm surprised that Mourinho hasn't utilized Pogba as a no.10 for longer period. He only does it a few times a season. Maybe we will get a new midfielder to play in Pogba's place and he will play no.10.

 

[sincher]

Why should we have played 4-3-3 against Spurs?

Because their midfield is very strong and liable to control the game if we don't.

 

[Synco]

I'm surprised that Mourinho hasn't utilized Pogba as a no.10 for longer period. He only does it a few times a season. Maybe we will get a new midfielder to play in Pogba's place and he will play no.10.

If I remember correctly, Pogba played higher up a couple of times in the beginning of last season, but it didn't convince me. I thought he didn't cope that well with the reduced time and space, and got into trouble too often, committing too many turnovers.

I think he is better when he can push up from deeper areas with the game in front of him, rather than mostly operating in the final third. A kind of roaming all-purpose #8 who can contribute anywhere, depending on the situation. But that kind of midfield role probably needs a good balancing setup.