Keir Starmer Labour Leader

Smores

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It’s cringeworthy but I do see the logic on Starmer’s part. He is trying to neutralise what has been a repeated line of attack by our trashy right wing media on Labour leaders from Foot through to Millliband and Corbyn. Since he can’t change the media, he has to play within the existing rules of the game. A bit of flag waving and God Save the Queen is worth it if it helps get rid of our Britannia Unchained cabinet.
It doesn't neutralise anything though, it just makes it look like you actually don't understand the complaints at all. If you must go after that demographic it needs substance not politicians being patently false. Labour have made this mistake over and over.

You can't take a knee for black lives matter and then wave a flag around to hope they forget, they won't. They see the former as criticising their society.

Education, NHS and the Police are the only safe topics and even then don't talk about paying teachers or doctors more.
 

MoskvaRed

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It doesn't neutralise anything though, it just makes it look like you actually don't understand the complaints at all. If you must go after that demographic it needs substance not politicians being patently false. Labour have made this mistake over and over.

You can't take a knee for black lives matter and then wave a flag around to hope they forget, they won't. They see the former as criticising their society.

Education, NHS and the Police are the only safe topics and even then don't talk about paying teachers or doctors more.
But the Tories are patently false too. Johnson could not care less about most of his voters but he somehow gets the message across that he is Bulldog Boris. Starmer cannot pull off the same trick but he can at least avoid accusations that Labour is more invested in the IRA or Hamas than the concerns of the patriotic (nationalistic) English lower middle/working class. By reducing focus on those issues, he can get more oxygen for discussion on education and health. I don’t like it but Starmer has to deal with the poorly educated, nationalist electorate he has rather than the more enlightened crowd we might wish it to be. It might not be enough but the alternative practically guarantees one party rule in England.
 

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It's definitely cynical but so is multi-millionaire libertarian Boris Johnson pretending to suddenly care about levelling up, immigration etc.

Even typical jingoism aside, Corbyn being perceived as pro-IRA (and other dodgy groups), reluctant to observe Rememberance day etc was a turn off to the wider electorate not just the white van man.
Johnson's aided and abetted by the media though and his clownish photocalls play to his crowd, which Starmer won't have. The papers are having a field day with this leak.

Image management is hardly new, eg don't wear a donkey jacket to the cenotaph -even Corbyn smartened up- but interested to see how the flag stuff will go. He's always going to be a remainer to the nationalists though, even if he does start wearing union flag cufflinks or whatever.
 

Eugenius

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Johnson's aided and abetted by the media though and his clownish photocalls play to his crowd, which Starmer won't have. The papers are having a field day with this leak.

Image management is hardly new, eg don't wear a donkey jacket to the cenotaph -even Corbyn smartened up- but interested to see how the flag stuff will go. He's always going to be a remainer to the nationalists though, even if he does start wearing union flag cufflinks or whatever.
He's in tough spot anyway with having to build a coalition of people who essentially hate each other.

He can't change the perception on brexit, but he needs to be at least electable and centrist enough to be a viable alternative.
 

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-34388530

Corbyn's conference speech to emphasise his patriotism


Corbyn's conference speech to emphasise his patriotismClose

Jeremy Corbyn will use his keynote address to the Labour Party conference in Brighton on Wednesday to emphasise his patriotism - weeks after he was widely criticised for not singing the National Anthem at the Battle of Britain memorial service.
Nothing new in the idea and at least he had not done something as stupid as corbyn to necessitate it

Given the last election result labour has to get votes from people they didn't last time and certainly in that respect there seems to be some logic in framing Labour in a patriotic light


I can't help but think that just singing the national.anthem and wearing a poppy, not having links with the ira would have made most of that difference though... I wonder if he's going to carry through corbyns call for a st George's day?
 

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Undercover policing inquiry: Keir Starmer urged to give evidence

Starmer’s role in the undercover policing scandal dates back to an episode where 20 activists were unjustly convicted of plotting in 2009 to occupy the Ratcliffe-on-Soar power station.

Prosecutors were forced to abandon the prosecutions of another six activists in January 2011 after it was revealed that the campaigners had been infiltrated by an undercover officer, Mark Kennedy, who spied on leftwing activists for seven years.

The initial convictions were also overturned by judges who ruled that crucial evidence gathered by Kennedy had been unfairly concealed from their original trial.

Starmer then commissioned a retired judge to conduct an inquiry, agreeing, his allies said, its remit with the Independent Police Complaints Commission. The judge, Sir Christopher Rose, primarily blamed a junior, regional prosecutor, while also concluding that other prosecutors and police were responsible for “failures over many months”.

Rose’s report was silent on the exact role played by Starmer during the miscarriage, making no reference to whether, for example, the chief prosecutor knew about Kennedy and the withholding of evidence, or took part in decisions about abandoning what was a major prosecution.

The power station case is a key part of the undercover policing scandal as it triggered a chain of events that exposed the long-running infiltration of political groups by undercover officers. Starmer headed the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) in England and Wales between 2008 and 2013.

Political arguments about the role played by undercover police resurfaced during the autumn when Labour split over the handling of the covert human intelligence sources (Chis) bill, regulating the future conduct of secret operatives and whether they are allowed to commit crimes to obtain information.

Starmer led Labour’s frontbench into abstaining on the bill during its passagethrough the Commons, while the party’s left led by Jeremy Corbyn voted against. Insiders say Starmer was at the heart of decision-making on the bill, arguing existing practices needed to be put into law, while calling for further safeguards. The bill is expected to become law this month. The campaigners also list a series of unanswered questions, including whether Starmer helped bury evidence of other miscarriages of justice caused by undercover officers.

In June 2011, Starmer commissioned Rose to examine only the case of the activists who planned to occupy the Ratcliffe power station.

But by the time Rose’s report was published in December 2011, there was growing evidence that the concealment of key evidence in trials of campaigners went beyond the case of the Ratcliffe activists, and could have affected a number of other trials.

Rose concluded that the Ratcliffe case was a one-off. Starmer accepted Rose’s conclusion and said there was no need therefore to examine other prosecutions to see if other activists had been wrongly convicted.

Subsequent investigations by campaigners and the media revealed much more widespread wrongdoing by the state, suggesting that many more activists over a number of years had been wrongly convicted.

In 2014, Mark Ellison, a barrister commissioned by the then home secretary, Theresa May, reported that undercover officers who infiltrated political groups routinely concealed their activities in criminal trials.

May commissioned the judge-led public inquiry to examine the activities of undercover officers since 1968. Led by retired judge Sir John Mitting, it started taking public evidence in November and is scheduled to last several years.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...g-inquiry-keir-starmer-urged-to-give-evidence
 
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CassiusClaymore

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In a way he's doing what he has to do to preserve any chances of Labour being relevant because sooner or later Scotland will feck off and we (England) will be a one party state.

MIght as well become Tory lite and that's why this...

Time for a new left party.
is so true.
 

Ajr

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I honestly think the only way for anyone to beat the tories is merging labour lib dems and whoever else. Will never happen, but the left vote is too split. Even an agreement not to run against each other in certain places would work, but that's a pipe dream in comparison when different parts of labour in their own party hate each other.
 

Compton22

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I like this from the Guardian comment section:

"What patriotism is to me:
Going out to work during this pandemic as a low paid essential worker: child care staff, school staff (SEN workers must be having a right difficult time of it), NHS staff, shop staff and so and so forth.

A left patriotism can be built on the respect for workers. A patriotism that recognises that low paid workers are getting a bloody raw deal.
A patriotism that cares for it's elderly and disabled because it's the right thing to do because they ARE OUR PEOPLE TOO.
A patriotism that doesn't put the boot to the unemployed because they face challenges often through no fault of their own. BECAUSE THEY ARE OUR PEOPLE TOO. Patriotism is feeding poor kids during a time of national need.

What patriotism IS NOT:
Knee jerk hatred of foreigners, people on benefits, engaging in pointless flag waving and doffing the cap.
Neither is patriotism dither and delay that has wiped out the aproximate equivalent to Workington, Whitehaven and Winderemere combined (for the rest of the 'red wall').

Patriotism would be dealing with this pandemic as they did in New Zealand.
The Tories have failed any meaningful test of what it is to be patriotic and sold the country to their mates and prioritised Boris public image over public health.

The Labour party has two choices: it can be a cheap facsimile of right wing style patriotism or it can set out it's own version of it.
The former is the easy lazy option the latter would require some hard work and honest appraisal of the needs of our country."

I don't think it is such a bad goal to be seen as more patriotic, it's what form of patriotism to embody that matters.

Sure, showing to be patriotic for patriotic's sake is a bad political move and the electorate should see right through it. Then again, this is the British public we are talking about here.
 

RedChip

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I like this from the Guardian comment section:

"What patriotism is to me:
Going out to work during this pandemic as a low paid essential worker: child care staff, school staff (SEN workers must be having a right difficult time of it), NHS staff, shop staff and so and so forth.
Surely the English language has more fitting ways to describe those things than "patriotism"? Flag waving, God save the queen stuff is ridiculous but we shouldn't dismiss it as a legitimate form of patriotism. It is cynical, for sure, but, at least, politicians must pretend they don't think it is ridiculous, if they want to win those people's votes.
 

CassiusClaymore

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it would be an irrelevent party though, in terms of aspirations of winning an election.
It will be irrelevant until the FPTP system changes but of course that won't happen either.

The best the other parties can do is work together under the current system to get them out. Again though, another pipe dream although they have shown some willingness in the past.
 

Fluctuation0161

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-34388530



Nothing new in the idea and at least he had not done something as stupid as corbyn to necessitate it

Given the last election result labour has to get votes from people they didn't last time and certainly in that respect there seems to be some logic in framing Labour in a patriotic light


I can't help but think that just singing the national.anthem and wearing a poppy, not having links with the ira would have made most of that difference though... I wonder if he's going to carry through corbyns call for a st George's day?
So your argument now is, Corbyn did it, so it is acceptable for Starmer?

I mean, your argument is flawed in many ways, as it often is, but do you think if Starmer had some actual policies, like Corbyn did, then the public could take his "patriotism" more seriously? Rather than just a cynical political ploy.

Why do you think he is perceived as lacking substance?

As for Corbyn, working towards a dialogue for peace in Northern Ireland is patriotic, no?
Nb. Please don't share one of your Guido or twitter copy and paste responses.
 

Jippy

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So your argument now is, Corbyn did it, so it is acceptable for Starmer?

I mean, your argument is flawed in many ways, as it often is, but do you think if Starmer had some actual policies, like Corbyn did, then the public could take his "patriotism" more seriously? Rather than just a cynical political ploy.

Why do you think he is perceived as lacking substance?

As for Corbyn, working towards a dialogue for peace in Northern Ireland is patriotic, no?
Nb. Please don't share one of your Guido or twitter copy and paste responses.
Corbyn's views on Ireland were hardly a vote winner.
 

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Yet another reset for the failing Leftist Labour Party. Starmer has been around extreme Left politicians all his life. Well known figures visiting his home when he was a kid , so he has only one view of life as most fanatics do. Boris is just a chancer that managed to be in the right place at the right time. Until Labour shift away from the Lefty dogma and dickheads like Burgon, they will be in opposition for a long time. If you ever watched the ‘Yes Minister’ series, then you will already know what goes on in Whitehall. Truth is stranger than fiction. I recall an episode when a poll was done about conscription and Sir Humphrey said ‘Well do one that comes out as we want it‘ and then explained to Bernard how to do it. Hilarious, just like the Government.
 

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Yet another reset for the failing Leftist Labour Party. Starmer has been around extreme Left politicians all his life. Well known figures visiting his home when he was a kid , so he has only one view of life as most fanatics do. Boris is just a chancer that managed to be in the right place at the right time. Until Labour shift away from the Lefty dogma and dickheads like Burgon, they will be in opposition for a long time. If you ever watched the ‘Yes Minister’ series, then you will already know what goes on in Whitehall. Truth is stranger than fiction. I recall an episode when a poll was done about conscription and Sir Humphrey said ‘Well do one that comes out as we want it‘ and then explained to Bernard how to do it. Hilarious, just like the Government.
So the problem is that Starmer is too leftist in this analysis?
 

Sweet Square

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Truth is stranger than fiction.

Anyways heres this fictional television show on which I based my politics around.......
 

NinjaFletch

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So the problem is that Starmer is too leftist in this analysis?
And that's the problem with centrism in a nut shell, no matter how far right you move conservatives are going to characterise you as being irredeemably commie.

When you cede them all ground and stop advocating for left wing ideas on their own merits you just end up with this gradual drift to the right.
 

nickm

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Oh god. Labour obviously have loads of white van driver working class supporters who hang the St George flag out during world cups, but just sounds so horrible- jingoistic and cynical.
Is he going start liberally using the phrase 'world-beating' too?
Why is patriotism necessarily jingoist or cynical?

How royally did labour screw up before, that these electorially basic things need to be addressed at all. Being broadly in favour of your own country, should not be controversial. It is table stakes.
 

Jippy

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Why is patriotism necessarily jingoist or cynical?

How royally did labour screw up before, that these electorially basic things need to be addressed at all. Being broadly in favour of your own country, should not be controversial. It is table stakes.
Patriotism is obviously not cynical in itself, but if flag-waving is adopted as a deliberate policy to appeal to a certain cohort of the electorate, then it will obviously be perceived so.

You've had the damage of different Labour leaders' apparent ambivalence about the likes of Remembrance Day and years of the right wing press banging the 'the left hates Britain' drum. They do need to quell this line of attack but the leak about this change of policy means it can no longer be done in a subtle way. Instead it's just created another stick to beat Labour with.
 

dumbo

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Yet another reset for the failing Leftist Labour Party. Starmer has been around extreme Left politicians all his life. Well known figures visiting his home when he was a kid , so he has only one view of life as most fanatics do. Boris is just a chancer that managed to be in the right place at the right time. Until Labour shift away from the Lefty dogma and dickheads like Burgon, they will be in opposition for a long time. If you ever watched the ‘Yes Minister’ series, then you will already know what goes on in Whitehall. Truth is stranger than fiction. I recall an episode when a poll was done about conscription and Sir Humphrey said ‘Well do one that comes out as we want it‘ and then explained to Bernard how to do it. Hilarious, just like the Government.
A piss poor Striker10 imitation. You'll never match his style and poise. Give up.
 

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Yet another reset for the failing Leftist Labour Party. Starmer has been around extreme Left politicians all his life. Well known figures visiting his home when he was a kid , so he has only one view of life as most fanatics do. Boris is just a chancer that managed to be in the right place at the right time. Until Labour shift away from the Lefty dogma and dickheads like Burgon, they will be in opposition for a long time. If you ever watched the ‘Yes Minister’ series, then you will already know what goes on in Whitehall. Truth is stranger than fiction. I recall an episode when a poll was done about conscription and Sir Humphrey said ‘Well do one that comes out as we want it‘ and then explained to Bernard how to do it. Hilarious, just like the Government.
Can you name these "extreme Left" politicians?
 

BigDunc9

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Yet another reset for the failing Leftist Labour Party. Starmer has been around extreme Left politicians all his life. Well known figures visiting his home when he was a kid , so he has only one view of life as most fanatics do. Boris is just a chancer that managed to be in the right place at the right time. Until Labour shift away from the Lefty dogma and dickheads like Burgon, they will be in opposition for a long time. If you ever watched the ‘Yes Minister’ series, then you will already know what goes on in Whitehall. Truth is stranger than fiction. I recall an episode when a poll was done about conscription and Sir Humphrey said ‘Well do one that comes out as we want it‘ and then explained to Bernard how to do it. Hilarious, just like the Government.
Location checks out.