How are you liking Tuchel?
Klopp to leave Liverpool at the end of the season
- Thread starter RonaldoVII
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I don’t think anyone has said they’d been ‘dominant’ they’ve just undeniably had a period of challenging for major honours whilst winning some. The fact they missed out on a title (twice!) by a point to a cheating team is hilarious but also terrifying.
That is being extremely harsh on klopp tbh.His first season wasnot even a full season,he was handed a team that was barely europa league standard,and the season after they won the league they had a write off season where their injuries were far beyond anything i have seen before,no manager could win anything in that situation.
If man city have broken rules that everyone else has followed,then they surely would have atleast 3 less prem titles,Sir Alex would have won it in 2012,and Klopp would have won it in 2019 and 2022.His ability to reach points totals only bettered by pep and his unlimited funds is astounding.If he was at United,able to spend much more than he has at liverpool and not losing star players,we would have seen him dominate the league each season.Sir Alex knew that he was by far the best manager to replace him.Klopp may not have won the champions league as often as he could,but his teams always came up against stronger sides in the champions league finals,apart from tottenham.We cannot be hypocrites and say that sir Alex was unlucky to come up against barcelona,but not give klopp the same benefit of the doubt against madrid.
Arsene wenger was undoubtedly great,yet he only led arsenal to 1 champions league final,klopp led liverpool and dortmund to 4 ucl finals within the space of just 11 years,which is unbelievably difficult to do.Pep only got to 2 champions league finals since leaving Barcelona.Sir Alex knows his stuff,Klopp would have easily carried on the united dynasty.
It can't. He's about as consistent as the British weather.
One bad season?
Finished below a poor United 4 Times. 2022/23, 2020/21, 2017/18 & 2015/16.
Twice in the last three seasons a poor Man Utd have finished above them.
Edit: in the last 3 seasons they have finished with less than 70 points twice. 67 last year and 69 20/21.
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Wait, are anyone disputing that?
Not me. If out performing the current United team was his goal then he's achieved it.
This cope from some united fans is embarrassing and rival fans must be laughing.
15/16( not even a full season as he joined in october)and 17/18 were his first 2 seasons (where he got to the ucl final)We should remember that sir Alex had 7 years without winning anything,it looks so desperate when you miss out important context to suit your agenda as opposed to just giving credit where it's due.20/21 was a write off season because of a horrendous injury list.Jose and solskjaer got very good points totals,as did ten hag last season,though last season was bad for klopp(i think he had hit the wall/exhausted)
You completely (probably voluntarily, maybe because of a language barrier?) misunderstood the point being made.
No, no one is. This poster has created a straw man argument and is having a jolly fight with himself.
My point was they are inconsistent. They had 2 seasons where they performed at a constant level across multiple seasons. Won the UCL and EPL those seasons. Since then they haven't put back to back seasons together.
I said he's a great manager but to be elite you need to keep a consistent level.
The 20/21 season he had them top of the league before he had to play Williams and Philips in central defense for half a season who later couldn't even get games at Celtic and Aberdeen in Scotland. Last season, from what we can gather from his statements, he was already burnt out. Sure, his impact was rather short lived and for a bigger legacy he would have had to stay with the club a lot longer. But in the six years prior to last season he built the team up to be a real juggernaught.
You also have to consider the starting point. Ten years ago, when Klopp arrived, Liverpools average league position the five years prior had been 5.8 (finished 6/8/7/2/6). Uniteds average league position the 5 years prior had been 2.6 (2/1/2/1/7). Klopp took over the team mid-season sitting 10th in the table with United sitting in 3rd. He then had 6 years where he didn't finish outside top 4 once, reaching record points totals in half those seasons.
If you look at what he had done at Dortmund, as well, winning Bundesliga not once but actually two successive titles - and then not a single other non-Bayern manager having wo that league in the last 10+ years after - you can tell, he's a really remarkable coach. Dortmunds average league position in Bundesliga the 5 years prior to Klopp had been 8.4.
He did amazingly in Germany I'm not disputing that.
If he had a longer period of form than 2 seasons then the drop off in 2021 could have been an anomaly, but having 2 good years, one bad, one good, one bad, shows the inconsistencies that I'm on about.
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What was the expectation when he took over at liverpool? With the financial position of the club, i don't think it was ever to dominate. He came up against a team that has an open budget and is in the best possible situation to deliver.
i think compared to the expectations, he has overachieved. In the CL, and most knockout competitions he has an excellent record. And in the league, he won one, which any liverpool fan wouldve taken. I certainly didnt expect them to win one under him. He could've won more, but in reality he is managing a club that punched above their weight to compete with city.
i think compared to the expectations, he has overachieved. In the CL, and most knockout competitions he has an excellent record. And in the league, he won one, which any liverpool fan wouldve taken. I certainly didnt expect them to win one under him. He could've won more, but in reality he is managing a club that punched above their weight to compete with city.
Also no one is disputing he's an excellent coach. It's just the level of excellent that is being discussed and the overall legacy.
I don't think he's historically a top tier level manager in the league, just a level below, but I'm pretty sure it'll be discussed differently.
Also his spending is sometimes downplayed, he's spent massively (most expensive keeper and CB in the world) over the course of his time there. He's a great coach but his spending has been par for the course, in line with his success.
I love the way Klopp is allowed whole seasons of poor performance to be written off for one injury to VvD but EtH is under the cosh having had our whole defence out this season.
It's kind of annoying you're spouting this kind of stuff which makes United fans have to defend a rival manager but you can very quickly check this isn't true.
Since Klopp joined. Last year Pep was almost at £1b, Chelsea were just over £900m, United were at £830m, Arsenal a few million shy of £700m, Pool were on £605m and Spurs on £518m (source)
Add on this summers spending +£218m City, +£399m Chelsea, +£172m United, +£200m Arsenal, +£147m Pool, +232m Spurs and your math is pretty off.
This is just abuse of stats or a post that lacks any context. Where ManUtd finished 5 years ago on an average when Klopp took over doesn't matter as the reason why they finished so high was not there anymore.
I don't think you understood the post at all. The poster even said what his intention was in that same post.It was literally the whole argument. see post #1109. The whole point was that the user wanted to find data points that implied Klopp didn't do better than United throughout the spell. I said that's kust reading the data wrong by using isolated data points.
I don't have any issue with United, just the idea that United did comparatively as well as Liverpool during Klopp is crazy, given he won the Premier League and the Champions League and United won neither of those.
Don't worry, I'm sure times will change and the pendulum swings the other direction.
It wasn't one injury to Van Dijk, we lost Gomez for the rest of the season a month later and then Matip for the rest of the season a month after that. We were top of the league before Matip went down while we were playing Fabinho at centre back.
We ended the season on a ten game unbeaten run - winning 8 out the last 10 - playing Rhys Williams and Nat Phillips as the first choice centre-back pairing. Williams has since been unable to get a game at Port Vale and Phillips has been turfed out at Celtic for being below the level of the Scottish League.
Klopp couldn't have done anything more that season.
Fair enough, I take back "par for the course", but I maintain he's spent massively throughout his tenure there, and has often spent big (Nuñez, Van Dijk, Alisson, Szoboszlai, Keita, I think Diaz too were all above 50m GBP). What I meant mainly was that he's sometimes portrayed as working wonders on a budget, that's just not true - nor should it be, it's absolutely impossible to be successful without spending big. It wasn't a dig per se, I don't think any manager should really be knocked for their spending (especially as it's often out of their remit), just that one of the narratives around him isn't true
I'm not as a matter of fact I have said he's a great manager twice in this thread.
I just think he lacks consistency to be considered top top tier.
Klopp is an all time great. There is no denying that. Same way that Hiddink, Tuchel, Cruyff, etc have won the right to be respected names in European football history, Klopp too has his place as someone who will be regarded as someone very special. Di Matteo winning the CL does not negate that logic.
Yes of course and he is a hypocrite for his Pogba comments which preceded VVD transfer but I think when you assess spending power and then look at the clubs and where they've shaken out, they're probably the only club you could say was punching above their expectations (they're most comparable financially to Arsenal who have won next to nothing and I can't remember getting to the latter stages of the CL for ages either).
Part of me also suspects he thinks it's just going to get harder and harder to win things. He lost Mane who was a key player for financial reasons, Salah is nearing the end of his pomp, does he really think Gakpo, Nunez, Diaz, Jota can hit anywhere near the heights of the previous years? I doubt it. It's a calculated move whilst his stock remains very high (and even if they tank this season people will say it's because of the announcement, not because of his abilities).
He did alright I guess.
He’ll be a huge loss to Liverpool,a brilliant manager,would have won more only for money bags City.
Well "wonders" is probably stretching it a bit, but he was certainly working on sort of a budget. Of course he's been spendig big, it's the Premier League, even Aston Villa have spent half a Billion over the past five seasons. Klopp always had to sell to buy though. Before he won the league his only signing was Minamino for like 7m while City had bought Diaz, Aké and Ferran Torres. There's a reason no one really believed they had a chance signing Bellingham or Haaland. After challenging for the league for 3 years you'd have expected a team like Liverpool to try and sign the likes of Kane, Rice, Bellingham etc. to really support this overperforming manager. Instead Rice signed for Arsenal after they had one top 4 finish after 7 seasons outside of it.
Hope he finally spends the Coutinho money before he leaves!
Time to get Alonso in. Alonso will be the next Liverpool manager.
I've been defending Klopp in this thread, but this is not entirely true. Liverpool were favorites against Madrid going into the 2022 CL final and should've won that game.
Him leaving at the end of the season is actually bad news if you're a United fan, the players will try harder to give him a happy signing off. They'll probably win the league now.
If he is great,then he is surely elite?Unless you mean elite as in the best ever conversation,but that is a tiny list and worth considering.Sir Alex had 26 years to win trophies at united,so far klopp has had 7 full seasons(first season was from october,this season is not done yet either.)Sir Alex was on the verge of the sack,and after 7 years he then won things.Thats why i cannot count 2015-2018 against Klopp,he was building upon the mess that rogers left,the turn around was instant aswell.The best way to gauge klopps record is to compare him to pep or jose,and consider their difference in spending.
Jose from 7 year period 2003-2010,won 1 ucl and afew prem titles,while outspending everyone at chelsea,not losing key players to bring in great players etc.He never got to a ucl final at chelsea,he got a 95 points total one season.Jose also started well at united,but failed to rival pep despite outspending klopp massively.
As for pep,well he only ever did great with messi in his side,or massively outspending klopp(*115 charges)never had to sell a great player in his prime to bring in new players,and still got to half the ucl finals that klopp did,knocked out of the ucl by klopp,and just about pipped him to 2 titles where i believe the biggest referee decisions went man citys way.
Klopps side were 11 mm away from the prem and ucl double,100 points and going the season unbeaten,thats just crazy!He also came the closest manager ever to winning the quadruple.We cannot sit here and pretend he isn't amazing without looking really jealous and bitter,so im just not onboard with that.
2018/19 + 2019/20 + 2021/22 were not just great but phenominal.
2020/21 they were top at new year even after lots of injuries, then got hit by lots of other injuries to key players.Still somehow came 3rd.
2015/16 + 2016/17 + 2017/18 were transition seasons where he also overachieved.
2022/23 was an underachievement.
2023/2024...who knows,but they are very strong again...
True. The goalie stood on his head that day.
let’s not forget that queen elizabeth died during his tenure as boss. a monarch who had previously survived many decades unscathed. regardless of any lost finals, that’s a huge black mark.
Klopp is cringe as feck, as we all know.
I still prefer him to the bald feck (no, I don't mean him, I mean the other bald feck, the one who's an actual top manager).
And there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that 99% on here would've been singing his praises rather loudly if Woodward had been successful with his idiotic Disneyland pitch, and Klopp had posted similar results at United over the same period.
Yeah, alright - maybe not 99% But a very solid supermajority, at least (we have an immense number of genuinely idiotic fans, after all).
A league and a CL, ffs! We would've been somewhere near where we should be, which is so much better than where we actually are that it's not funny at all. It's not even remotely amusing.
Caveat (yes, yes): it is more than possible that Klopp wouldn't have been able to post those results here (there's a reason why he didn't buy Woodward's idiotic pitch).
I still prefer him to the bald feck (no, I don't mean him, I mean the other bald feck, the one who's an actual top manager).
And there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that 99% on here would've been singing his praises rather loudly if Woodward had been successful with his idiotic Disneyland pitch, and Klopp had posted similar results at United over the same period.
Yeah, alright - maybe not 99% But a very solid supermajority, at least (we have an immense number of genuinely idiotic fans, after all).
A league and a CL, ffs! We would've been somewhere near where we should be, which is so much better than where we actually are that it's not funny at all. It's not even remotely amusing.
Caveat (yes, yes): it is more than possible that Klopp wouldn't have been able to post those results here (there's a reason why he didn't buy Woodward's idiotic pitch).
Wow. I’m in awe.
True, but let's not mount any high horse(s) here.
As bad as this seems for Kloppo (and I'm not downplaying it, it is genuinely horrible), she - Lizzie - wouldn't have been on the throne for all those years in the first place if it hadn't been for the fact that Matt Busby (yes, that Matt Busby - the one who played for Liverpool and invented the tracksuit) was United manager when her dad kicked the bucket.
And I won't even mention - except I will - this bastard:
...who pretty much single-handedly oversaw the death of Queen Vic herself (the GOAT of queens, as many would say - I mean, she's to Lizzie what Fergie is to whatever his name is, the current hairless wonder).
(His name is James West, one of the greatest monsters in football history.)
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Hmm maybe slightly in terms of talent but is any team truly favorites against the kings of the competition, that still had a great side and manager?It was a flip of a coin who would win imo(madrid were fresh going into that game,liverpool werenot as they played every game of every competition,and at half time liverpool looked knackered.)On a side note,had they not gone for the league cup and fa cup,i am sure they would have done the prem and ucl double.
I don't consider Madrid's CL history that relevant when looking back at that final, to be honest. Only Carvajal, Nacho, Modric, Kroos, and Benzema started that day from players that were also part of their 2010s CL dominating sides. Asensio and Vázquez came on late, but they were fringe players anyway.
Don't get me wrong, Madrid were definitely not some fluky underdog going into that game, but Liverpool were comfortable favorites at the bookmakers (who aren't wrong, almost ever), and outperformed Madrid on xG in the game as well. Basically the reverse situation of the 2018 final when looking at chances and probabilities before the game. Madrid were comfortable favorites to win in Kyiv, but a Liverpool win wouldn't have been some unimaginable upset win back then either. It just didn't play out the same way 4 years later.
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