[DWelbz19]

Starting to get concerned. He’s lost a lot of his proactive aggression and if we actually try to play higher up, Lisandro looks very vulnerable in isolation scenarios. All the more so with Casemiro playing how he is and no Varane to handhold.

 

[slored1]

He has been below par in every single game this season. Looks a step behind and incredibly rash. Similar to Casemiro really.

 

[Nicoteiro]

I think he is not fully fit. That’s just it.

and he doesn’t want to go100% because of this, but he is not doing it intentionally.

 

[Revan]

Hate to say it but seems that I was right on this (@Sarni is the only other Caf poster who has been negative about him I can remember).

He is okay. Would be third-fourth choice in top teams who compete for trophies.

 

[jem]

He has been below par in every single game this season. Looks a step behind and incredibly rash. Similar to Casemiro really.

I thought he looked good against Arsenal.

 

[Sarni]

Hate to say it but seems that I was right on this (@Sarni is the only other Caf poster who has been negative about him I can remember).

He is okay. Would be third-fourth choice in top teams who compete for trophies.

The amount of stick I got for merely saying he wasn’t world class, just good.

 

[groovyalbert]

The aura of dominance and control which he had last season has totally vanished. He is a shadow of his pre-Sevilla self.

 

[jesperjaap]

Hate to say it but seems that I was right on this (@Sarni is the only other Caf poster who has been negative about him I can remember).

He is okay. Would be third-fourth choice in top teams who compete for trophies.

Yes after five games of the season when he isnt fully fit your opinion seems to have been proved conclusive.....deary me

I can appreciate the apprenhension, when it has just been 3/4 of a first season due to his injury as often is second seaso syndrome, but the decisive comments on several of our players after five games when we have had nowhere close to our best first elven so far is crazy.

I don tthink Martinez s world class, but I do think he could be the best signing we have made in a long time, however needs a godo 2/3 seasons to see if that is the case

 

[Revan]

Yes after five games of the season when he isnt fully fit your opinion seems to have been proved conclusive.....deary me

I can appreciate the apprenhension, when it has just been 3/4 of a first season due to his injury as often is second seaso syndrome, but the decisive comments on several of our players after five games when we have had nowhere close to our best first elven so far is crazy.

I don tthink Martinez s world class, but I do think he could be the best signing we have made in a long time, however needs a godo 2/3 seasons to see if that is the case

I was saying last year that he is not that great, compared him to Heinze (who actually was once my favorite player). Even when Caf was claiming him to be the best in the league/world. Looked to me the textbook example of overrating a new signing, that we do for most players (poor Mount, never going over that stage).

The comparisons with Vidic were totally nuts.

 

[Darlington Padgett]

The aura of dominance and control which he had last season has totally vanished. He is a shadow of his pre-Sevilla self.

He's not fast enough to play the way we are supposed to be playing and he needs Varane to make up for his lack of aerial game. I think defensively we'll be better with Shaw and Varane, they were really solid last year. The problem is he's the only player who can drive the ball and pass from the back. We saw it yesterday, we couldn't do anything once he came off.

 

[El Jefe]

He's a really good player but his signing just further highlights Ten Hag's complete lack of regard for what is needed in this league.

To be a top defender in this league particularly in a centre back duo you absolutely have to be excellent athletically. You need to be physically imposing or very fast, the best usually have both. Martinez has neither so even though he has many other good qualities, we will never truly have a dominant defence with him there.

To add to the lack of athleticism, we already have Lindelof and Maguire so adding Martinez to that batch is completely poor squad building. No surprise we collapse without Varane.

He's a really neat and fiery technical defender but is he really a better fit for us than Kilman, Aguerd or Guehi. Sure he might be better than them but is he a better defender for this league than they are in a back four? I really don't think so.

 

[Dannn411]

He is a defensive midfielder playing at CB. I've always maintained this. He is not quick enough to play CB long term and his calmness and composure on the ball would be far more valuable to the team at DM. We would have so much more control of the game.

 

[Leftback99]

He's a really good player but his signing just further highlights Ten Hag's complete lack of regard for what is needed in this league.

To be a top defender in this league particularly in a centre back duo you absolutely have to be excellent athletically. You need to be physically imposing or very fast, the best usually have both. Martinez has neither so even though he has many other good qualities, we will never truly have a dominant defence with him there.

To add to the lack of athleticism, we already have Lindelof and Maguire so adding Martinez to that batch is completely poor squad building. No surprise we collapse without Varane.

He's a really neat and fiery technical defender but is he really a better fit for us than Kilman, Aguerd or Guehi. Sure he might be better than them but is he a better defender for this league than they are in a back four? I really don't think so.

Agree. Arsenal wanted him, but their intention was to play him at left back for a reason.

We don't even see the benefits of his qualities on the ball, because he's surrounded by team mates who can't hold on to it.

 

[jesperjaap]

I was saying last year that he is not that great, compared him to Heinze (who actually was once my favorite player). Even when Caf was claiming him to be the best in the league/world. Looked to me the textbook example of overrating a new signing, that we do for most players (poor Mount, never going over that stage).

The comparisons with Vidic were totally nuts.

Comparing him to Heinze as a reason for him being over rated? Heinze was a top class left back?

I think a lot of people have jsut not forgive him for the Liverpool links but he was a top defender here and after he moved on as well. If Martinez is as good a centre back as Heinze wasa a left back, that is a good thing.

I think generally comparing anny player after a season to some of our legends or some of our flops if they are poor is a bit naive, short sighted and disrespectful to the careers of players before hand.

Vidic was a top top centre back here for such a long time, so I agree that is nuts. Funnily enough which wont go down well in the discussion, I actually think despite being briliant here, Vidic was actually as an individual player a tad over rated. Dont get me wrong, I lvoed him, thought he was superb here but it was as much to do with his partnership and being the perfect foil to Ferdinand rather than him being individually a woorld class centre back.

Like Vidic, tbh I knew little of Martinex before he came and jsut thought he was the second option after we failed to lure Timber and it was a huge fee. But last season as a season alone, I dont personally see how he can be judged as not being superb. His attitude, affect on those around him, ability on the ball, reading of the game...it was all top notch and alongside Casemeiros performances, paramount in the success we had last season. For me those two were really the only improvements I saw in our side.

Whether he continues and goes on to have a top career of performances here and cement himselfas world class is a differnt thing altogether. All I can agree with is people (and will include myself) have over hyped and gone overboard on him based on performances over 9months, its takes a lot longer than that to cement a reputation.

But I really cant agree that he has been anything but top quality in his time here last season. I think he was awful yeesterday but I think though not the same level, he has been oe of the veyr few players that has been decent so far this season forgetting that game

 

[jesperjaap]

He's a really good player but his signing just further highlights Ten Hag's complete lack of regard for what is needed in this league.

To be a top defender in this league particularly in a centre back duo you absolutely have to be excellent athletically. You need to be physically imposing or very fast, the best usually have both. Martinez has neither so even though he has many other good qualities, we will never truly have a dominant defence with him there.

To add to the lack of athleticism, we already have Lindelof and Maguire so adding Martinez to that batch is completely poor squad building. No surprise we collapse without Varane.

He's a really neat and fiery technical defender but is he really a better fit for us than Kilman, Aguerd or Guehi. Sure he might be better than them but is he a better defender for this league than they are in a back four? I really don't think so.

I disagree. I think Ten Hags failure with centre backs (and maybe his hands were tied with Maguire this summer) has actualyl been is failure to sign a better back up cb this summer.

I think despite his size he has been pretty physically imposing. You dont have to be big to have that skillset. Have seen it with other Aregentnian defenders Gonzalo and Ayala were fantastic centre backs, both winning most of there phsyical duels and they were both small.

I think great defences are often built on a cb partnership that complements each other, we have seen it with Rio/Vidic, Stam/Johnsen, Bruce/Pallister and I think we saw signs of one last season with Martinez and Varane, our defence looked much more solid.

The failure to complement Martinez this season with better options than we have when Varane is injured which could and already could be very regularly is the error, signing Martinez certainly wasnt. He was definately up there amongst the best centre backs last season

 

[3KDré]

He was perfectly fine defensively last season. It's very clear to see he's not as mobile since his injury, which is quite normal.

 

[Lee565]

He would be a good player to have in the left back position if you want to play the way pep does with his fullbacks but he doesn't get in another top side side as a 2 man central defence.

I think he can still be a useful player player long term even if eth did get sacked as his ability to play in in different positions is handy

 

[DRJosh]

Was turned inside out for one of the goals against Brighton as he committed too early. If it was Maguire embroiled in a similar mistake, he would be criticised and then publicly shamed with a meme.

Martinez is typically the better player but I don't think he is playing at a level this season that warrants him starting over Maguire.

 

[Ibi Dreams]

I'm confident he'll get back to his best. He was so consistently good last season, and every player has blips due to injuries etc. He's still a quality centre back

 

[In Rainbows]

I was saying last year that he is not that great, compared him to Heinze (who actually was once my favorite player). Even when Caf was claiming him to be the best in the league/world. Looked to me the textbook example of overrating a new signing, that we do for most players (poor Mount, never going over that stage).

The comparisons with Vidic were totally nuts.

That doesn't mean you were right. Because the same posters who said he was good last season, are now saying he's been bad this season. So clearly they notice a decline in performance. So either this was his level all along (you think he hasn't changed). Or the posters were right both times (they noticed a difference in his performances from last season to this season).

Him being bad doesn't prove you right. It just proves that he's been bad this season, which everyone agrees with. The explanation could simply be his injury causing his performances to dip or it could be that it's his new level forever or that you were right all along. Only time will tell. 5 games isn't enough to make a conclusion.

 

[Marcus]

He looks like he is still injured or protecting an injury.

 

[Chaky_Best]

We played 5 games into the season and the guy complained already twice about his foot.

So yes, he's not 100% but we can't give the spot to Maguire.

Here we all agreed that with an injury prone Varane we are thin in quality in that area.

 

[Revan]

That doesn't mean you were right. Because the same posters who said he was good last season, are now saying he's been bad this season. So clearly they notice a decline in performance. So either this was his level all along (you think he hasn't changed). Or the posters were right both times (they noticed a difference in his performances from last season to this season).

Him being bad doesn't prove you right. It just proves that he's been bad this season, which everyone agrees with. The explanation could simply be his injury causing his performances to dip or it could be that it's his new level forever or that you were right all along. Only time will tell. 5 games isn't enough to make a conclusion.

Because the limitations were there to be seen from the first moment. But he was passionate and a fighter, and he went into the typical honeymoon season that almost every United player gets (except Mount). Even Darmian was praised to death for half a season despite being garbage.

Don’t get me wrong, he is an okay player. A Heinze/Ake caliber of player that under the right circumstances can be an important squad player for a top team. He is better than Lindelof for example, and I actually rate Lindelof. But the best in the world, best in the league, one of the best in the league and other praises he got in Caf were always deluded opinions.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

We played 5 games into the season and the guy complained already twice about his foot.

So yes, he's not 100% but we can't give the spot to Maguire.

Here we all agreed that with an injury prone Varane we are thin in quality in that area.

Wasn’t there some issue with it during the international break too?

Shite state of affairs if he’s starting the season half fit when we had so much time to make sure he was back to 100% but there you go. Nothing is ever straightforward at this club.

 

[lex talionis]

If Martinez is still nursing a broken foot he shouldn't be playing, even if it means resorting to Maguire as a desperation measure.

 

[Castia]

You wouldn’t think it was the same player as last season


Looks completely useless in all honesty

 

[Nicoteiro]

This is a typical red cafe exaggeration. Lisandro Martinez is one of the best centre backs in the world. A couple of regular games against good opposition coming back from an injury that seems to be not completely healed won’t change that.

The situation makes it look worse because he’s been covering some of Lindelofs space and also some of Reguilon / Shaw space too. And even more, because as a center back if you don’t have a midfield that’s gonna cover spaces for you with Eriksen and Casemiro, you will always be in a bad situation. If you’re not 100% in this scenario, as I think he isn’t, he’s going to pay against good opposition.

Im confident he’ll be back to his best soon, hopefully for the CL match. Want to read some knee jerking like the old days in this thread.

 

[GueRed]

I was saying last year that he is not that great, compared him to Heinze (who actually was once my favorite player). Even when Caf was claiming him to be the best in the league/world. Looked to me the textbook example of overrating a new signing, that we do for most players (poor Mount, never going over that stage).

The comparisons with Vidic were totally nuts.

Heinze and Martinez are different style of players..

Time will tell on whether Martinez will be a one season wonder like Gabriel Heinze.

 

[RuudTom83]

Defence and midfield is changing every week...and now with AWB out he is basically the only half-fit* first choice defender at the club.

Now is not the time to critique his performances.

*coming back from a bad foot injury.

 

[RedC]

He shines when he has someone with aggression and pace beside him, playing with Maguire or Lindelof is going to expose his weaknesses. Our midfield could make any CB look bad at this point also.

 

[Real Name]

Posters claiming they were right about something will always crack me up.

 

[Real Name]

Because the limitations were there to be seen from the first moment. But he was passionate and a fighter, and he went into the typical honeymoon season that almost every United player gets (except Mount). Even Darmian was praised to death for half a season despite being garbage.

Don’t get me wrong, he is an okay player. A Heinze/Ake caliber of player that under the right circumstances can be an important squad player for a top team. He is better than Lindelof for example, and I actually rate Lindelof. But the best in the world, best in the league, one of the best in the league and other praises he got in Caf were always deluded opinions.

On the other side of the coin you have opinions he's no better than some midtable defenders. Those are deluded as well.

Not only that, 5 games in and there's a talk he should be a left back or he's a DM playing as a CB.
Are those people right too?
Suddenly its as if he has no qualities to play as a CB which he played the whole of last season.

 

[Revan]

On the other side of the coin you have opinions he's no better than some midtable defenders. Those are deluded as well.

Not only that, 5 games in and there's a talk he should be a left back or he's a DM playing as a CB.
Are those people right too?
Suddenly its as if he has no qualities to play as a CB which he played the whole of last season.

Definitely, that is stupid too. He is a very good defender.

The problem is that many posters are essentially binary classifiers. You're either world class or shit.

 

[Real Name]

Definitely, that is stupid too. He is a very good defender.

The problem is that many posters are essentially binary classifiers. You're either world class or shit.

Agree about that one. No middle ground.

 

[FujiVice]

Did they castrate Lisando Martinez when he went under the knife in the summer?

 

[acnumber9]

He’s been getting it lightly here.

 

[Nicoteiro]

This is a typical red cafe exaggeration. Lisandro Martinez is one of the best centre backs in the world. A couple of regular games against good opposition coming back from an injury that seems to be not completely healed won’t change that.

The situation makes it look worse because he’s been covering some of Lindelofs space and also some of Reguilon / Shaw space too. And even more, because as a center back if you don’t have a midfield that’s gonna cover spaces for you with Eriksen and Casemiro, you will always be in a bad situation. If you’re not 100% in this scenario, as I think he isn’t, he’s going to pay against good opposition.

Im confident he’ll be back to his best soon, hopefully for the CL match. Want to read some knee jerking like the old days in this thread.

Again the same today. He played well, but him and any other defender are hopeless if your midfield doesn’t track or help in any way. Until the first 25 minutes everything was alright, that’s when Casemiro and Eriksen ran out of gas.
No fault in any of the goals, him or lindelof.

 

[tomaldinho1]

He’s been getting it lightly here.

Thought he was fine. Last man tackle form the awful Dalot pass, didn’t do much that wrong which I feel goes for most of the defence. Beating Kane for 50/50 headers looks so funny but was great to see. Still not back to where he was but at least the timidity seems to have gone.

 

[acnumber9]

Thought he was fine. Last man tackle form the awful Dalot pass, didn’t do much that wrong which I feel goes for most of the defence. Beating Kane for 50/50 headers looks so funny but was great to see. Still not back to where he was but at least the timidity seems to have gone.

Him standing and watching Gnabry on the second goal was poor. Should’ve passed Kane to the full back beside him.

 

[AneRu]

He is coming back from injury, missing two of his regular partners and has to not only contend with some of the most ruthless teams around but has a ghost in midfield and a goalie with jelly hands.