Yep, never seen Balotelli defend so much in his life. But him and Lambert are far too static for the style that Liverpool wants to play. How some Liverpool fans actually thought that they wouldn't miss Suarez is rather silly. Wouldn't be surprised to see Everton get 3 points at Anfield in a high-scoring shootout. Martinez will be aggressive going after that porous defense.
Liverpool 2014/15 | WARNING: Contains strong amounts of Scouse nonsense
- Thread starter Wumminator
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
I don't think it's just his legs that have gone. I think his head has gone too. I think the slip last season and then his pass to Suarez in the world cup has hit him a lot harder than many thought. Along with the massive criticism and abuse he took, I think he's suffering badly.
You also have to look at the fact Liverpool sold their best player. Many would argue their one and only truly world class player. Suarez is the best striker in the world. Or was last season. Definitely in the top 5 players in the world. But aside from him who else do Liverpool have in the same class? Gerrard was but isn't any more. Sturridge is close to becoming but still has a bit to do. Sterling is potentially a top world class player, and Coutinho is quality but is he up there yet? Balotelli obviously has world class ability but in my opinion he is another Anelka. His attitude and problems and the fact he seems to go from club to club to me says although he is amazingly talented, he cannot really be classed as world class because you never know which Mario is going to turn up, if he even bothers at all.
I know it's not all about the big names or stars but when you look at the two squads, United have RvP, Falcao, De Gea and Mata who are all world class, and all have the ability to change games on their own or in an instant. If you add Di Maria who many suggest on form is currently playing as the best player in the world, and Rooney who many think is world class, then that's SIX world class stars. If they all click and LvG gets them all playing well together then I can't see how anyone can say Liverpool will finish higher than United this season.
To be fair a lot of teams got hammered by Liverpool at Anfield last year. There was a lot of talking last year about Everton finally going to Anfield to attack Liverpool and Rodgers just let us and destroyed us on the break. We also rushed to many players back from injury for that game aswell. Hopefully we won't be as naive this year and we actually look to hit them on the break which seems the way to beat Liverpool these days. I am not holding my breath though, Moyes defeatism is deep rooted in to many players in the squad and probably the fans also.
Based on Evertons last 2 matches, I can definitely see you lot winning this pretty easily tbh.
To use an old cliché, 'form goes out the window in a derby'.
All I can say is thank f*ck they didn't win the league last season. That really was their big chance.
Well City smashed us both games last season, and well Liverpool technically not a derby also smashed us last year. Form plays a big part.
Just gonna put this here. This was after the City game last season.
Well that went well...
Last year came as a real shock, and the post Christmas run seemed like fate for them to win the league.
This year, without Suarez it was always going to be a huge ask, and despite the noises about not making Tottenham's "Mistakes" in the way they spent their money, they seem to have done a similar thing.
Without Sturridge or Sterling they look absolutely pony, so those two being fit and in form is essential. A lot of pressure on them.
However, even if it's short term, or a lasting theme, the 1-0 home defeat to Villa, and today's 3-1 defeat were real "what the heck" moments on seeing the scores.
Felt like a couple of years ago again before they started lashing teams.
This year, without Suarez it was always going to be a huge ask, and despite the noises about not making Tottenham's "Mistakes" in the way they spent their money, they seem to have done a similar thing.
Without Sturridge or Sterling they look absolutely pony, so those two being fit and in form is essential. A lot of pressure on them.
However, even if it's short term, or a lasting theme, the 1-0 home defeat to Villa, and today's 3-1 defeat were real "what the heck" moments on seeing the scores.
Felt like a couple of years ago again before they started lashing teams.
Look at Sterling draped in a flag in that video 2 posts up as if they had won something
Embarresing cnuts.
Embarresing cnuts.Watching these kind of clips, and all those crowds lining the streets awaiting team bus clips, are just pure comedy! Never count your chickens!
That's a good point regarding his mental state. I only thought about his performances lately in a physical sense. But yeah, the slip and Suarez going, he knows deep down he will never win a league title now and that must kill him. Maybe there's nothing left. He could well drop out of the side more and more from here on in. Still think Rodgers could have used him more wisely so far but point taken re his mental state.
Comedy is exactly the right word for it. I mean you didn't even see these type of celebrations when we wrapped our third championship in a row yet there you have Liverpool fans celebrating a title they haven't won a month before the season actually ends.
Found another belter:
Don't think it's that funny that fans get behind their team and support them.
They are sorely lacking Suarez's energy and dribbling ability. Balotelli might be chasing down defenders but on the ball he slows down their play and offers very little movement. He did well at City because he suited their patient build-up approach to the game, Liverpool play a direct, counter-attacking game and it might not be the right fit for him. Its still early in the season though but the signs don't look very promising. It is a bit similar to Berba when he was with us,.
I agree you have 6 world class players but three or four of them were here last season that finished 7th.
The next logical argument will be it woz Moyes wot done it. But he was the chosen one. Now you have a new chosen one with a different CV, none of it containing prem experience.
Faith in LvG is correct as Utd fans obviously. Just like you were singing about the chosen one last August. But let's wait and see a few more weeks pan out before any bold claims are made.
As for your Gerrard comments I agree.
What an excellent word.
Credit where it's due, Barney has been here since they were awful and was one of the few who stuck around last season when they bottled it.
Chill out, Cheech. You're as bad as some of our fans! It's been 5 games, I'm confident, despite the poor start, that you will be competing for top 4 come the end of the season. Your signings need time to gel, like our's do, your defence will become more sturdy as the season goes on but the sooner Gerrard is dropped the better for you. Also you're missing your best striker, nothing's over yet. Although I do think if Falcao, Di Maria, Herrera, Mata and Rooney/RvP are on form when the trip to Anfield comes around I'd be feeling pretty confident of smashing you
I watched them today and you can see that the 2 young Spanish full backs aren't used to defending at this level. Both look more comfortable going forward, particularly Moreno with his pace but Gerrard doesn't have the energy to cover any gaps they leave in behind while rushing forward.
I think you guys were unlucky to lose Flanagan for so long, was impressed with him last season, and even Johnson who was off form but still one of your experienced players.
I think you guys were unlucky to lose Flanagan for so long, was impressed with him last season, and even Johnson who was off form but still one of your experienced players.
Oh god, that game was a fecking travesty. Can't remember exactly, but wasn't it something like five major incorrect decisions that all went in Liverpool's favour? As I recall, they got two penalties that weren't, should have had two players sent off, and City should have had a penalty but didn't. I've never seen a team get helped by refs as much as Liverpool were last season, it was beyond ridiculous and unbelievably consistent.
Was it at least a dozen penalties they got, the vast majority of them extremely soft or outright dives? And had opposing players sent off something like eight times. It was so over the top, even by the standards of what the two big Spanish clubs enjoy in their league and one or two lucky seasons we've had. Never in my life has a team been gifted so many games by wrong refereeing as Liverpool did last season.
The Moyes argument is a boring one now from our perspective (I feel like fans who use that argument as to why we've started the season poorly are lazy and don't bother coming up with any valid or interesting points about why) because one of his biggest issues was his shit midfield, which has been rectified now, that's why we have much more confidence in van Gaal. Also I don't think the world class players, Di Maria and De Gea aside, will be as important as the Herrera's and Blind's of the team, they're what will win us points even if we don't appreciate it, the Rooney's and Falcao's will be scoring the goals but they'll need the heart of the team to be on form, even if the heart of the team isn't world class.
I agree with this, I think Flanagan was an unsung hero for Liverpool last year, I think he was a very solid and consistent performer for them last year.
I think it's fair to say Louis van Gaal is a world class manager and that could be the difference. I don't think his CV requires premier league experience, finishing second in the premier league say like Rodgers would probably not even make it onto his CV.
He can be stubborn though and that's what Liverpool fans must hope for, that he is a man on a mission to try to prove he can win the league with 3-5-2. He won't like how the media are referring to 3-5-2 as a failed experiment therefore I personally fear he will not go for 4-3-1-2 which I think the team will be better suited to and also it will do better in this league.
That said, I just hope 3-5-2 is everything Louis van Gaal thinks it is.
I think that's harsh. Manquillo is the opposite to what you've described, from what I've seen of him so far. He gets the job done defensively, but going forward is nothing special yet. I don't think he's ready to be undisputed number 1 so far but out of all our defenders he's the last one I'd blame for our defensive woes this season.
As for Alberto Moreno, I don't think he's been poor defensively, I think he's just under instruction to go forward as much as possible. So I wouldn't criticise him too much, but the point about Gerrard is fair. It's a bit lopsided having such an attacking full back without a proper defensive midfielder there to cover for him.
Flanagan is a loss, as much because of the competition he provides for both full back positions, but I don't miss Johnson at all.
I am judging this on the few games I've seen of him this season, but I did hear he had very little 1st team experience at Atletico too and I think it shows. It's tough to fit 3 new defenders into a defence at once no matter who they are, but in your case 2 young players who are new to the country and league was always going to be a rough transition. I don't think Mignolet exudes confidence to his back 4 either but that's another story.
Two words, Luis Suarez. That and Gerrard is walking around the pitch more than I think I've ever seen anyone do. There has to be around five or six times in the last couple of years that I've noticed and said to myself "He's literally walking, it's been 30 seconds and he's still walking around.. That is weird."
Their defence is shite. Sakho is pure shite, it was evident last season. Liverpool fans tried to cover it up as him simply being 'awkward'. He's shit. Skrtel is probably their best defender and he likes to feck things up at least once every game. Lovren looks lost. Moreno wants to attack and forget about defending. Johnson and Enrique and atrocious. Toure is their back up . Mignolet isn't good enough either.
Gerrard is ageing, Lucas is past it, Allen is average. Henderson is crucial but can't carry the whole midfield. Liverpool fans say Can is quality but they said the same about Sakho, so I don't know if I want to believe them on that. Sterling and Sturridge cannot save them over 4 competitions. Rodgers is scared Sterling will burn out. Balotelli will let Liverpool down.
Rodgers record in the transfer market is questionable and his performance in the cups is also questionable. They weren't very good during the season they were in the Europa league, and have now lost both games either side of a CL game they struggled in. The only game they played well in was the Spurs game.
. Mignolet isn't good enough either.Gerrard is ageing, Lucas is past it, Allen is average. Henderson is crucial but can't carry the whole midfield. Liverpool fans say Can is quality but they said the same about Sakho, so I don't know if I want to believe them on that. Sterling and Sturridge cannot save them over 4 competitions. Rodgers is scared Sterling will burn out. Balotelli will let Liverpool down.
Rodgers record in the transfer market is questionable and his performance in the cups is also questionable. They weren't very good during the season they were in the Europa league, and have now lost both games either side of a CL game they struggled in. The only game they played well in was the Spurs game.
It's not a logical argument, and not one you will hear from me. If you look at my join date and post count, you will see i'm still a newbie. It's a shame I can't access my posts in the newbies to quote. I guarantee you though, although I defended Moyes at times, I was never a fan and certainly never agreed with the chosen one status and although I supported him, I didn't believe in him.
Moyes was destined to fail for many reasons but mainly because as pointed out above, he didn't rectify the problems that Sir Alex managed to gloss over and that was mainly in midfield and too many mediocre players. But that has all been covered time and time again. I'm also not one for bold statements. I am hugely superstitious when it comes to football and United. I never predict scores or wins etc, and I made a bit of an exception with my comment, but it was based on fair reasoning.
Liverpool sold their best player and replaced them with below par, average players. Some have potential agreed, but others look to be below standards. Lallana for instance looks like another Andy Carroll/Adams and was bought based on one good season in the prem. I admit he is a decent player, but he is not world class. Liverpool sold the worlds best striker and one of the top 5 players in the world. Not only that, but your only truly world class player. After finishing runners up last season and to compete against the worlds best in the CL you needed to strengthen. Defence was obviously key, especially considering Agger was sold. Midfield needed bolstering and as proven, Gerrard needed replacing and of course you needed a striker to replace Suarez.
Liverpool spent over £100 Million in the window and if you look at the number of players and quality, they don't really seem to be what was required or up to standard. Look at the quality your rivals have bought, on top of what they already have in their squads. Chelsea adding Fabregas and Costa, Arsenal bought Suarez and City who didn't need much have got rid of a couple and upgraded slightly and one with true world class potential in Mangala. We all know who United bought. Liverpools money could have been spent on better players and used to pay the wages of those players. Less is more. Certainly in Liverpools case this summer. Similar to Tottenham last year, although personally I think Tottenham did the better business. 3 or 4 top quality signings would have been far better than the 10 you did get. I think Rodgers fell in to the needing a huge squad to compete in all competitions trap. Ironically he has effectively nullified your chances of competing in any of them.
I agree it is too early to say either way about United or Liverpool, but one thing is perfectly clear and that is United have the better squad and now with a manager who has experience and history of winning major honours coupled with players who have also done so, and quite a few of those players won those trophies while at United. Then you add to the fact that Suarez leaving and Gerrard suffering badly AND having to bed in new players with a relatively inexperienced manager. That is the basis of me saying I can't see how anyone could say Liverpool will finish above United this season.
If I am wrong I will stand corrected and admit it, but looking at it objectively and rationally it would take a cock up of Moyes proportions for me to be wrong.
I've seen Sakho play for France and he is quite solid. He looks awful for Liverpool though. It doesn't matter who they play in there they concede goals. They have a serious systematic defensive issue.
Brentan cant organise a defence, if you look at the defensive records of his sides over the years it is pretty apparent.
It's wearing him out. @Rafateria said he's working himself harder, he's not a mentally fluid player. Wear him down doing all the dirty work and he'll be behind play 7/10 as a result. They need to just stick him up front and let him sulk and keep playing passes into him. It's the only way he's ever been productive.
The team looks fecked any time it's counter attacked.
At the moment teams are sitting back, and the attacking players aren't used to playing a patient game, so a lot of relatively high risk passes are attempted and misplaced, and with full backs pushed on, and Gerrard not having the anticipation or physical skills necessary to help cover the defence, they're fecked. Any central defense is going to be fecked on the break, you have runners coming from all sides and you're always on the back foot, you need someone like Mascherano or someone t break up the attacks, but as I said Gerrard cannot do it. There has to be a point in the near future where Rodgers analyses Gerrard's attacking contributions relative to a fecking shit defensive unit based on what they are expected to achieve, and it doesn't add up.
Even with these counter attacks, it's not always about goals, Liverpool can string forty passes together and get within 30 yards of the opposition goal, and one break from the opposition will carry them fifty yards up the pith easily, because Gerrard can't stop them. That in itself is soul destroying as a supporter, all this build up play and then boom, West Ham have a throw in in line with Liverpool's penalty area, feck off.
Went to Southampton with 28m and didn't get the right man, heh.
At the moment teams are sitting back, and the attacking players aren't used to playing a patient game, so a lot of relatively high risk passes are attempted and misplaced, and with full backs pushed on, and Gerrard not having the anticipation or physical skills necessary to help cover the defence, they're fecked. Any central defense is going to be fecked on the break, you have runners coming from all sides and you're always on the back foot, you need someone like Mascherano or someone t break up the attacks, but as I said Gerrard cannot do it. There has to be a point in the near future where Rodgers analyses Gerrard's attacking contributions relative to a fecking shit defensive unit based on what they are expected to achieve, and it doesn't add up.
Even with these counter attacks, it's not always about goals, Liverpool can string forty passes together and get within 30 yards of the opposition goal, and one break from the opposition will carry them fifty yards up the pith easily, because Gerrard can't stop them. That in itself is soul destroying as a supporter, all this build up play and then boom, West Ham have a throw in in line with Liverpool's penalty area, feck off.
Went to Southampton with 28m and didn't get the right man, heh.
Has Allen had even a few continuous months without injury since he moved to Liverpool? It feels like he's always out with some long term injury or another.
I'd be interested to see what a Gerrard-less midfield would look like for Liverpool. Everyone on this forum is rightly raving about the difference Blind has made (one game I know), the addition of an energetic, deep lying midfielder whose passing is far more accurate (if maybe less ambitious) than Gerrard could go a long way to solving Liverpool's defensive frailties.
My opinion of them remains, even last season, we had a better squad than them - now we're far ahead. They have a very average squad and not a single world class player there, Rodgers transfer market record is a joke - but he's a good manager and that's why they did what they did last season. But they have sold Suarez [massive] and there's simply no way they'll make top four this season. They'll finish 6th.
Brentan has this nice way of playing and all and likes to develop young talent, but they should have gone for couple of experienced players in transfer window instead of going for all the young/relatively inexperienced ones. Right now, their talented ones are all young, less than 25 years age and the few experienced ones are not the preferred ones, except Gerrard and Skrtel. Lambert and Toure are there to make up numbers. Johnson, Enrique, Lucas Leiva are either not performing well and/or fallen down pecking order. Lallana, though 26 hardly has lot of experience at top level. Sturridge and Balotelli have spent good amount of time with big clubs but they are hardly leader types. The experience-talent balance is not quite there imo.
Sakho was terrible yesterday. However that third goal... Watch the replays everyone. Look where that ball goes and look how much space Downing has when the ball when it reaches him. We are talking acres.
Then look at the man who should be in that holding position in the middle of the park, the exact location that header went. Steven Gerrard. His defensive positioning is atrocious. His ability to read the game is atrocious.
Then look at the man who should be in that holding position in the middle of the park, the exact location that header went. Steven Gerrard. His defensive positioning is atrocious. His ability to read the game is atrocious.
He's comfortably better than Scholes and Lampard though.
It's far too easy to say Luis Suarez. Any team would miss him but he is hardly the only reason, we had a number of games last season that even with him we failed to break down teams playing 10 men behind the ball for most of the match.
For me it is far simpler. There are three issues, I can see two resolving themselves though the third (Midfield), which in my opinion is the most critical, I'm not sure if BR has the balls for. If he does then a dip into the transfer market in January, or better utilising Can, Allen, Henderson and Rossiter, could solve it.
1. Without Sturridge, Suarez and Sterling up front we do not have the movement, pace and dynamism of last season. This can be resolved by playing Sterling up front when Sturridge is absent and with midfield runners like Allen, Markovic, Lallana and of course Sterling himself, when Sturridge is playing. Balotelli will get more space and can hold the ball up and feed those runners.
2. Valdes to replace Ming is an absolute must. His confidence alone will help settle that defence. Keep Lovren & Sakho together and give them time. Moreno, Manquillo, Flanno and Enrique are more than good enough as a group to cover those two FB slots.
3. Gerrard must be kept fresh and rotated. We may get another season or two out of him on the bench, but this season should be the one to see rotation and a changing of the guard. Lucas should never start, he is nowhere near the player he was before his injuries, many people are beginning to realise this now. BR certainly has a plan but injuries to Can and Allen forced him into making a poor decision, Lallana should have started in place of Lucas (as I said before the match).
4. I can add a 4th. BR is making team selection and tactical mistakes, as he did in his first season. IMHO this is because he has not yet figured out how to best use the new players at his disposal, he hasn't had the balls to bench SG (I think he'll find them) and injuries have curtailed the way he wants to set up the team (see Spurs for reference). I believe he'll get it right sooner rather than later and I do like that he is prepared to admit those mistakes and try to rectify them (3 at the back after 20 mins / Lucas off Lallana on at HT) rather than be hard-headed about it.
In all fairness although he was toss yesterday, was he really supposed to be holding in the 87th minute 2-1 down?
I disagree about Sakho being atrocious. He was obviously told to fill in that LB slot when Moreno went bombing off up the pitch, and he generally did well, brought the ball out of defence and played a few excellent long passes (on the ground) out of that area (which wasn't happening prior to his arrival).
I totally agree with you on the mis-directed header for the 3rd. It was a very powerful header away - going fully 20-25m so it shouldn't have been an issue. However there was literally no-one (I'm looking at you Stevie) within 10-15m of the ball when Downing picked it up. There was a space the size of an aircraft hangar there.