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The younger players aren't ready for the intensity and demand and mentality and personality. Only one we've seen is Garnacho. Hannibal is the most progressing, Amad has been a wide player/forward line.I'm curious if people think any of our youngsters will have an impact on the decision. Assuming Sabitzer is seen as a backup/rotation 8/10, that's the position our academy has produced talents with at a decent rate. Currently Hannibal, Mainoo, Shoretire, arguably Iqbal, Diallo potentially, there's another lad in the academy whose name I can't remember too. On one hand Sabitzer could be seen as a short term/cheap option as cover until one of those displaces him, on the other hand the more pressing need is for a holding midfielder and signing Sabitzer too might leave the squad a bit bloated/block progression for younger players.
Mainoo certainly does not look 3 years away. Very composed and calm in his cameos, looks physically able for it. I'd like to see him around it a bit more.The younger players aren't ready for the intensity and demand and mentality and personality. Only one we've seen is Garnacho. Hannibal is the most progressing, Amad has been a wide player/forward line.
Mainoo, Shoretire, and Iqbal, and might as well put Savage there...they are at least 3 years away if not more. They are so young and mentally not capable right now, that's normal. We haven't even started talking about the physical demands.
He's 17. What 17 to 21 year old across England is playing consistently in his position? He's played 87 minutes of senior football, with 60 coming against Charlton (midtable of League One) in the League Cup.Mainoo certainly does not look 3 years away. Very composed and calm in his cameos, looks physically able for it. I'd like to see him around it a bit more.
I’d argue that we need two who are good passers and/or can help run the play in the engine room. And Sabitzer doesn’t do that so he goes.Do we need him if we bring in a top class CM. There would be Casemiro, Fred, Eriksen and A.N.Other for 2 positions. That should be enough cover.
Yup. It’s what we do.Another midfielder who's better higher up the pitch. We love to collect them.
Hannibal is definitely the closest of the ones I mentioned, he's got plenty of first team experience in the Championship and International football, no chance he lacks intensity or physicality. We paid something crazy for him like £15m when he was 16 so I'm certain well involve him in the squad, only question is whether it's next season or the season after. I think he's likely to be a better player than Sabitzer before long.The younger players aren't ready for the intensity and demand and mentality and personality. Only one we've seen is Garnacho. Hannibal is the most progressing, Amad has been a wide player/forward line.
Mainoo, Shoretire, and Iqbal, and might as well put Savage there...they are at least 3 years away if not more. They are so young and mentally not capable right now, that's normal. We haven't even started talking about the physical demands.
He's 18 in 10 days. Besides, there's Jacob Ramsey, Harvey Elliott, Romeo Lavia, Moises Caicedo off the top of my head. Bellingham has also been doing at the top of the Bundesliga, in international competitions for his country and in the CL. Good chance he makes a move to one of the elite teams this summer where he'll be expected to be the main man. Loads of examples. It's no good shielding talented young players away for years with the expectation that suddenly at 21 they'll be ready. There needs to be clear pathway for them into the first team to contribute.He's 17. What 17 to 21 year old across England is playing consistently in his position? He's played 87 minutes of senior football, with 60 coming against Charlton (midtable of League One) in the League Cup.
Players earn their way into the first team and there's always a pathway, but they have to earn it.He's 18 in 10 days. Besides, there's Jacob Ramsey, Harvey Elliott, Romeo Lavia, Moises Caicedo off the top of my head. Bellingham has also been doing at the top of the Bundesliga, in international competitions for his country and in the CL. Good chance he makes a move to one of the elite teams this summer where he'll be expected to be the main man. Loads of examples. It's no good shielding talented young players away for years with the expectation that suddenly at 21 they'll be ready. There needs to be clear pathway for them into the first team to contribute.
Ramsey has been playing for Villa for the past 3 seasons, he was a teenager when he started featuring regularly. You also say Ramsey turns 22 in May but then keep repeating Mainoo is 17 - he turns 18 in less than 2 weeks. I don't think the expectation is Mainoo should be playing a prominent role in the squad, but you'd imagine the plan this summer is for us to recruit a De Jong type profile of player, and ideally a DM to cover for Casemiro (the 19 year old Lavia seems to be everyone's favourite choice). If that happens, there's no point in signing Sabitzer. He isn't good enough to force his way into the team and it makes better sense to give Mainoo/Hannibal whatever minutes in the Cup games and dead rubbers are left over.Players earn their way into the first team and there's always a pathway, but they have to earn it.
You compare these players to Mainoo and they are physically much more ready. Ramsey turns 22 in May, Lavia is much more advanced in experience and talent than Mainoo and is also much larger. Caicedo is 21. So point being, you can count on one hand how many of these 17 to 21 players are playing consistently. And none of them are playing for (currently) Champions League sides, but at least are playing consistently compared to Mainoo because they are good enough for the squads while Mainoo isn't. It's part of his development but shit, he's 17 and is well ahead for now but doesn't mean United throw him into the deep end.
Bellingham is a different breed, the extreme end. Expecting far too much far too soon for the likes of Mainoo is wrong. He's not ready for a prominent squad role.
Compared to Sabitzer, it's 100% clear who is the more impactful player now and in the immediate future. Sabitzer is known quality and should be more consistent and flexible than Mainoo, Hannibal. Unless a clear higher quality player comes available to step up above Eriksen (it won't be cheap), plus the future of McTominay and DvB, Sabitzer would be a very good signing for around 15M.
Ramsey has been playing for Villa for the past 3 seasons, he was a teenager when he started featuring regularly. You also say Ramsey turns 22 in May but then keep repeating Mainoo is 17 - he turns 18 in less than 2 weeks. I don't think the expectation is Mainoo should be playing a prominent role in the squad, but you'd imagine the plan this summer is for us to recruit a De Jong type profile of player, and ideally a DM to cover for Casemiro (the 19 year old Lavia seems to be everyone's favourite choice). If that happens, there's no point in signing Sabitzer. He isn't good enough to force his way into the team and it makes better sense to give Mainoo/Hannibal whatever minutes in the Cup games and dead rubbers are left over.
Casemiro, Eriksen, Fred, Bruno, new number 8, new young DM cover, and Mainoo/Hannibal is more than enough (and that's assuming both McTominay and Donny leave). Sabitzer doesn't fit and isn't needed in my opinion.
United need an upgraded DM behind Casemiro (current backup is McTominay), you mention Eriksen and that's been Fred. But we know it was FdJ and Eriksen. But also need to replace DvB or just phase him out.Played well last night but I don’t see point in adding another player that we seem to struggle to have a clear role for (although in fairness we haven’t seen alongside Casemiro).
We desperately need another DM and an upgrade on Eriksen. Sabitzer isn’t either so it’s just a signing that wouldn’t really make sense unless we are short on funds.
Hannibal is 20 and will be 21 in January. He'll be coming back to United on the back of a very solid season at Birmingham City in the Championship. This is the time for him to come into the squad and contribute, not 2 or 3 years down the line.From the current squad, you and many others see McTominay and DvB as expendable. I agree. However, your scenario of two new center midfield players of capable quality (New 8 and New DM) will cost around 75M+ at least.
- Central midfielders: Casemiro, Eriksen, Fred, New 8, New DM
- Orthodox center mid (8 more than a 6): Eriksen, Fred, New 8
- Defensive center mid (6 more than 8): Casemiro, New DM
- Attacking midfielder: Bruno....and 'new' 8/10 hybrid
Then you have to account for the striker/CF position and GK and RB.
All that considered, Sabitzer fits the profile of a squad player that is needed, has positional flexibility, experienced, leader, etc. All for probably 15M to 20M.
The pathway for Mainoo and Hannibal is still very much there in that 3 year window. In 2 years, Eriksen will be near free agent status, probably same with Fred, and Casemiro is near his mid 30s. So that's where Mainoo and Hannibal have to stay patient and earn their way into the first team squad, let alone a place in the matchday squads.
ten Hag is playing Bruno in central midfield at the moment and Sabitzer higher in the number 10. Doesn't that speak to the lack of confidence in Sabitzer as a central midfielder? I find it hard to believe ten Hag thinks Sabitzer is a better number 10 than Bruno.United need an upgraded DM behind Casemiro (current backup is McTominay), you mention Eriksen and that's been Fred. But we know it was FdJ and Eriksen. But also need to replace DvB or just phase him out.
So that's 3 new players and United have much greater needs that will eat up a huge chunk of their budget (and wages). Sabitzer is able to play throughout the central midfield positions at a consistent and good level, plus it suits the tactics EtH deploys throughout matches.
It speaks to Sabitzer's flexibility and the need to get Bruno on the ball more without being marked out of the match like he was against Newcastle. When you're going up against 3 CBs and need to press and be more robust while your CF is Marcus, it was a great change by EtH. Sabitzer offered flexibility to EtH and the team to make the team better overall and provide a different wrinkle against an in form side like Brentford has been.ten Hag is playing Bruno in central midfield at the moment and Sabitzer higher in the number 10. Doesn't that speak to the lack of confidence in Sabitzer as a central midfielder? I find it hard to believe ten Hag thinks Sabitzer is a better number 10 than Bruno.
To me it spoke to Bruno's flexibility if anything - I don't think ten Hag trusted McTominay and Sabitzer to make enough of an impact to keep Brentford pinned back so he played Bruno out of position to facilitate that happening and it worked. Ideally you want your best players in their proper positions and if we had Lavia and not Sabitzer, we wouldn't see Bruno getting shunted into deep positions and further away from the opposition goal where he's at his most devastating.It speaks to Sabitzer's flexibility and the need to get Bruno on the ball more without being marked out of the match like he was against Newcastle. When you're going up against 3 CBs and need to press and be more robust while your CF is Marcus, it was a great change by EtH. Sabitzer offered flexibility to EtH and the team to make the team better overall and provide a different wrinkle against an in form side like Brentford has been.
Sabitzer helped set the tone from kickoff. He knew exactly what was expected of him and what to do and when. Also played in Marcus for the game winning goal in a totally new role he's never played for United until yesterday. I think EtH has confidence in Sabitzer to play a role in the squad and make a difference like again yesterday.
Great post.I like Sabitzer and the way he helps the team tick. Against Brentford, he was efficient. He's not a flashy player, but he's taking more shots and will start adding goals to his game, and his worth will be more obvious. In head to head with Fred and McT, I'd say that Sabitzer gives consistently a 7/10 performance, maybe reaching 8/10. Fred will give you a 3/10, a 5/10, or a 8/10, often in the same match. McT will give you a 6/10 every match. So, if I were picking the team, I'd select stability and reliability (Sabz) over mercurial coin toss (Fred) or almost but not quite there (McT). I think Sabz is better positionally than McFred, he reads the game faster, and he's able to spring counters faster. It's still his first season with us and he's adapted remarkably well.
I don’t think need to replace DVB, he’s hardly played all season and if he was fit I doubt we’d have signed Sabitzer on loan.United need an upgraded DM behind Casemiro (current backup is McTominay), you mention Eriksen and that's been Fred. But we know it was FdJ and Eriksen. But also need to replace DvB or just phase him out.
So that's 3 new players and United have much greater needs that will eat up a huge chunk of their budget (and wages). Sabitzer is able to play throughout the central midfield positions at a consistent and good level, plus it suits the tactics EtH deploys throughout matches.
Ideally, every new player coming into the squad (either by signing or promotion from the youths) should be able to challenge for a place in the first XI.I don't mind him, but we should be looking at higher quality players really. Someone once said that signing squad players is the wrong outlook - sign players who are as good or better than the ones you already have. He isn't that.
If we had Lavia, we wouldn't need McTominay as they occupy similar positions. Sabitzer would line up with Lavia, but how EtH did it yesterday with Sabitzer and Marcus occupying 3 CBs and a congested midfield worked extremely well for the first half and most of the second before fatigue started to come into play.To me it spoke to Bruno's flexibility if anything - I don't think ten Hag trusted McTominay and Sabitzer to make enough of an impact to keep Brentford pinned back so he played Bruno out of position to facilitate that happening and it worked. Ideally you want your best players in their proper positions and if we had Lavia and not Sabitzer, we wouldn't see Bruno getting shunted into deep positions and further away from the opposition goal where he's at his most devastating.
You still need quality depth and it's very clear Sabitzer fits that need. The younger players will have their time, but happy for them to come into the summer and take their chance, but it rarely happens and that's okay. We also need top characters to lead the young players like they have with Garnacho and to a certain degree Pellestri and Malacia.I don’t think need to replace DVB, he’s hardly played all season and if he was fit I doubt we’d have signed Sabitzer on loan.
I like Sabitzer but it’s adding quantity rather than a real upgrade to our starting eleven. If we sell Mctominay and DVB, send Sabitzer back and sign an actual DM and a CM of higher quality that’s a huge upgrade.
Not enough unless that CM is able to also provide cover at CDM,otherwise will need to sign two midfielders to have options for various situationsDo we need him if we bring in a top class CM. There would be Casemiro, Fred, Eriksen and A.N.Other for 2 positions. That should be enough cover.
Still have seen zero evidence so far of Utd wanting to sign a number 8 and DM coverRamsey has been playing for Villa for the past 3 seasons, he was a teenager when he started featuring regularly. You also say Ramsey turns 22 in May but then keep repeating Mainoo is 17 - he turns 18 in less than 2 weeks. I don't think the expectation is Mainoo should be playing a prominent role in the squad, but you'd imagine the plan this summer is for us to recruit a De Jong type profile of player, and ideally a DM to cover for Casemiro (the 19 year old Lavia seems to be everyone's favourite choice). If that happens, there's no point in signing Sabitzer. He isn't good enough to force his way into the team and it makes better sense to give Mainoo/Hannibal whatever minutes in the Cup games and dead rubbers are left over.
Casemiro, Eriksen, Fred, Bruno, new number 8, new young DM cover, and Mainoo/Hannibal is more than enough (and that's assuming both McTominay and Donny leave). Sabitzer doesn't fit and isn't needed in my opinion.
Agree with all of this. Basically a midfielder that knows where to be defensively, isn't weak or slow, and can take the ball from the defense and progress it.I don't think his being an attacking mid is a bad thing really. My guess is we sign someone who can both credibly backup Casemiro and play as an 8, like De Jong, Neves, Caicedo or Rice and then we look like this in midfield:
Bruno - Eriksen - Sabitzer
#8 - Eriksen - Sabitzer
Casemiro - #8
and probably one of Fred (my guess) or Mctominay sticks around as the 6th guy for depth for one last year and barring injuries he's sort of unhappy with his playing time and then hopefully Mainoo is the new 6th man in 2024-25.
5 main guys covering 3 spots, which at let's say 55 games (38 league + 10 CL + 7 domestic cup games) is 165 starts. 33 each is a good number with Bruno probably closer to 40 and maybe Sabitzer closer to 25.
I could even see Fred and McTominay leaving for more playing time and financial purposes, and the 6th guy being a random cheap signing from a smaller country or league, or a veteran loanee in like Zakaria was for Chelsea. Or Mainoo just being given a shot, same age Gravenberch was in his first big season for Ajax and if we have an injury we can pick up a loan in January again.
Fred, Eriksen and a new DM would be the depth, I just don’t see why we need another player on a similar level. We also have plenty of experience already and given Fred, Casemiro and Eriksen are all in their 30s we really should be looking for younger additions in midfield than adding more experienced players.You still need quality depth and it's very clear Sabitzer fits that need. The younger players will have their time, but happy for them to come into the summer and take their chance, but it rarely happens and that's okay. We also need top characters to lead the young players like they have with Garnacho and to a certain degree Pellestri and Malacia.
It's no coincidence he's a Red Bull guy. He's not going to control the game or have 100 passes. More of a working class Lampard than a working class Xavi.Agree with all of this. Basically a midfielder that knows where to be defensively, isn't weak or slow, and can take the ball from the defense and progress it.
I thought Sabitzer might be that guy but he's a bit slower then I hoped.
That has been a recurring feature of Ten Hag's set up from pre-season, 1 deep midfielder, quite isolated, the other 2 pushed up very high. Allows for a high aggressive press but also gives a lot of playmaking responsibility to the defense, hence Lisandro and Shaw being so important.Either he doesn’t know what role he’s playing or Ten Hag’s playing him in a bizarre position, because he seems to spend an awful lot of time not in midfield, and yet not affecting the play in any obvious way. I can’t make any sense of it.
Yeah, I understand it from the pressing perspective, but I find it hard to believe that’s how he wants to set up on the ball. I get that Sabitzer drags the midfield around and creates space by being that high up, some of the time, but he also seems to be completely redundant a lot of the time. He’s just not in a position for anyone to find him. Maybe there’a a lot of subtlety to it that I’m missing, but it just seems a bit aimless. And it’s not like we’re playing such dominant football that you’d think we’ve found something that really works, and we’re executing it to perfection.That has been a recurring feature of Ten Hag's set up from pre-season, 1 deep midfielder, quite isolated, the other 2 pushed up very high. Allows for a high aggressive press but also gives a lot of playmaking responsibility to the defense, hence Lisandro and Shaw being so important.
