Messi at the World Cup - No Ronaldo comparisons!

sammyvine

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Exactly, Brazil as well imo.

Romero, Rojo, Fernandez and Gago all start ffs. Decent at best players. Whilst I'm not a big fan of Higuain or Mascherano and Garay is very overrated aswell.

Argentina has three top players, one very good full back who doesn't perform near as good as he does for City. Two-three good players who get overrated and the rest is meh.
Apart from Aguero, Di Maria, Messi and Zabaleta, their team is average....its a bit similar to Holland's team

i don't rate Higuain one bit which is why i didnt include him

A midfield pairing of Gaga and Masherano is very underwhelming and offers nothing going forward and games are mostly won in midfield.

Compare Argentina's CM with France, Germany, Brazil, and even Belgium and you will see how poor they are
 
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Snake Plissken

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At least Holland's top class players have showed up though. Only one of Argentina's have.

They were quite good in qualifiers so I don't know how they've regressed so much.
 

TheShedEnd

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Defensive teams, the real Argentina are about to show up
 

Fellaini's Afro

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They were quite good in qualifiers so I don't know how they've regressed so much.
Qualifiers are misleading tbh. Looked good defensively but it was clear that was a weak area. Failed to win 7 of 16 matches(although will admit tough group) Messi often produced brilliance to save them.
 

Snake Plissken

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Even aside from teams being defensive, they've been awful and struggled to create much at all. Even if the Belgians were open, you'd think they're defensive could top Argentina's, and with De Bruyne and Hazard and even Lukaku and Miralles you have attackers in FAR better form than Argentina's, Messi excluded.
 

TheShedEnd

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Di Maria can't have as bad a game as he did yesterday though, think he'll be just as important as Messi against Belgium, the one player who runs at players non stop
 

Brwned

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Defensive teams, the real Argentina are about to show up
Belgium are defensive though and have enough quality in attack to catch them out on the break so I can see them knocking Argentina out.
 

Skorenzy

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Belgium are defensive though and have enough quality in attack to catch them out on the break so I can see them knocking Argentina out.
We are indeed defensively sound, but I'm quite concerned about the amount of space we left between our DF & MF last night, if we play the same set-up and personnel we're going to get destroyed by Di María and especially Messi operating in that space (cf. the Bernábeu clásico this season where Ancelotti didn't go for containment). However, I've got confidence in Wilmots' ability to pick certain specific players for certain specific games/opponents/situations. We already excelled at that all the way throughout qualifying and our current run in the WC has seen that success continue, with his excellent handling of Vertonghen, Van Buyten, Kompany's injury problems and esp. the whole Lukaku/Origi situation (about which I've seen so much knee-jerk bullcrap posted in the matchday thread last night, it's hilarious).

Another example, while many were decrying the use of Fellaini in MF last night, it made quite a lot of sense (and I say that not at all being a fan of Fellaini ever since his first consistent run of brainfarts dating back to 2008, which cost us results against Spain and Germany in WC and EC qualifying most notably). His physicality was needed against an also extremely physical American MF.

That said, the game against Argentina should be one where he doesn't start (and if he does, definitely not as a nominal holding MF), because he won't be able to track Arg's explosive, more technical players without giving up foul after foul. The ideal solution to me would be to have Witsel and Defour as holders with the same 4 in front of them (Hazard, De Bruyne, Mertens, Origi -- keeping Lukaku as the ace up our sleeve for the 2nd half or ET). Wilmots has already used Defour (a squad player really) sparingly, but extremely efficiently in qualifying by having him start in both our games against Croatia (favourite to win the group) as a dedicated marker on Modric. He had him in his pocket for 180 minutes, I can tell you. I even think he set up Lukaku for the winning goal in the away game. I'm not sure whether he's suspended or not for the QF (he was sent off in the last group game), but he'll likely be low on confidence anyway.

So far the stand-out player has once again been De Bruyne for me, as he has been for the past 2 years. Courtois solid as always (we've never lost a game with him in goal, by the way! 21 and counting), Vertonghen excellently recovered after his poor showing in the opening game against Algeria where he gave away the penalty, Kompany and Van Buyten look an impressive pairing and even Alderweireld, despite clearly being the weakest link in DF, has stepped up at times.

Hazard has been incredible when you compare this to his usual form for the NT, he's been very good in the build-up (+2 excellent game-winning assists) and working extremely hard for the team as well. Origi is a revelation, came out of nowhere and played his way into the starting lineup in no time, offers more varied movement than Lukaku, looks a lot better technically as well. Credit to Lukaku though, after a tough time getting started in this WC, he showed the right spirit when he came on.

Comparatively disappointing have been Witsel and Mertens, two of our most influential and consistent players in qualifying, apart from a couple of halves of games. But I'm very happy with the overall performance from the team thus far.

@marcosdeto I'm hoping for an open game as well, mate! ;)
 

Rykker_4united

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Those saying Argentina are average because of players like Rojo and Romero have clearly not watched Argentina games yet this world cup, because Romero has been quite good, he is an excellent shot stopper. Rojo has been one of the shining lights in Argentina's starting xi, he's a very talented player both defensively and offensively. Half of you are considering Argentina lucky to make it to the quarters because you read somewhere that their squad is weak, but I don't think you actually have any idea.

Belgium have been utter wank in this tournament and they win won game, 2-1 in extra time against the USA, and all of a sudden they are world beaters. They have been one of the most distinctly average and underwhelming teams in the tournament so far. They had a remarkably easy group and hardly set the world alight with the opponents they had to play so far.
 

shahab

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Those saying Argentina are average because of players like Rojo and Romero have clearly not watched Argentina games yet this world cup, because Romero has been quite good, he is an excellent shot stopper. Rojo has been one of the shining lights in Argentina's starting xi, he's a very talented player both defensively and offensively. Half of you are considering Argentina lucky to make it to the quarters because you read somewhere that their squad is weak, but I don't think you actually have any idea.

Belgium have been utter wank in this tournament and they win won game, 2-1 in extra time against the USA, and all of a sudden they are world beaters. They have been one of the most distinctly average and underwhelming teams in the tournament so far. They had a remarkably easy group and hardly set the world alight with the opponents they had to play so far.
Belgium actually had a great game yesterday.
While I'm still waiting for Argentina's good match.

Argentina had a remarkably easy group too. They won everything like expected and got a 9/9. The round after they won again. Every game they won was with a little 1 goal margin. (2-1 , 1-0, 2-3, 1-0)
Same as Belgium. Won every match till now with only a goal difference between the sides (2-1 , 1-0 , 0-1 , 2-1).

Not expecting to see a lot of goals in the match. Penalties will decide it.

Neither side have been really good, but also not bad (or they wouldn't have been in the QF).
 

redpersie

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France, Germany and Spain all have better squads....

Their bench is also painfully thin considering the likes of Maxi is one of the first names they look to
France doesnt have better squad. Spain yeah, Germany maybe, but Messi and Aguero are better than anybody in German Squad.

Messi, Aguero, Higuain, Dimaria are all 40m+ players. Then they have Lavezzi, Mascherano, Zabaleta, Garay.
 

amolbhatia50k

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You're getting a bit defensive, it really isn't much of a criticism and it isn't unjustified to say Messi hasn't shown his peak form at this World Cup. I'm not sure why it's so hard for some people to accept, it's weird, it tends to be the Messi fans as well which is ironic as you think they would have the awareness to recognise he can play better than this.

I know football is a team game.. But firstly the best player and sides playmaker carries a significant part of the burden for making the team tick. Secondly I'm actually talking about Messi's performances, not Argentina's. Argentina don't have to thrash every team 4-0 for Messi to play the perfect football he's shown before. Di Maria having a poor tournament isn't responsible for Messi not being as explosive as he used to be or his decline in dribbling. At his best a few years ago he was by far the best dribbler I've ever watched, by an absolute distance, he would skip around players as if they weren't there due to that combination of ball control and agility. If you think this is the best Messi can do then fair enough, but I think you underestimate what he's capable off.
Not at all. You're reading into things that aren't there.

Everyone knows messi isn't in top gear in this tournament. That's obvious and I've stated it a number of times in this thread.

But even not at his best, he's been very very good this World Cup given he is deciding games for a mediocre team which has high expectations. I think that constitutes a fine tournament. I mean, this need for messi to be the bestest thing ever in every single competition he takes part in, by some, as a necessity to mark his legacy, is a bit odd. Not talking about you btw.
 

TheShedEnd

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I mean, this need for messi to be the bestest thing ever in every single competition he takes part in, by some, as a necessity to mark his legacy, is a bit odd. Not talking about you btw.
It's because of the annoying comparison to Maradona ever since he played his first game for Barcelona, and it's something he's never been able to shake off, desite far outshining Maradona at club level.

Back when he was a youth the comparisons started like all the other Argentinian players before him, which is fair enough. we all do it when the next big talent shows up. Then they pretty much picked up when he scored that goal against Getafe, and a year after his rise to football stardom in 09/10 people were calling him arguably the best of all time when he scored the solo against Zaragoza and then dismantled Arsenal with that hat-trick about a week later.

Skip a few seasons on and many more goals scored, records broken and individual accolades won, he still can't catch a break. I wonder had Messi chosen Spain as his national team and won the tournaments they have with legitimate ease, would the comparisons have ended in 2010?
 
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sammyvine

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France doesnt have better squad. Spain yeah, Germany maybe, but Messi and Aguero are better than anybody in German Squad.

Messi, Aguero, Higuain, Dimaria are all 40m+ players. Then they have Lavezzi, Mascherano, Zabaleta, Garay.
Higuain being a 40m player:lol:
 

Malva

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Those saying Argentina are average because of players like Rojo and Romero have clearly not watched Argentina games yet this world cup, because Romero has been quite good, he is an excellent shot stopper. Rojo has been one of the shining lights in Argentina's starting xi, he's a very talented player both defensively and offensively. Half of you are considering Argentina lucky to make it to the quarters because you read somewhere that their squad is weak, but I don't think you actually have any idea.

Belgium have been utter wank in this tournament and they win won game, 2-1 in extra time against the USA, and all of a sudden they are world beaters. They have been one of the most distinctly average and underwhelming teams in the tournament so far. They had a remarkably easy group and hardly set the world alight with the opponents they had to play so far.
This is pretty damn naive thing to say. You can exempt Rojo, and i've never really followed him so i'm still learning about him, But Romero is unquestionable a calamity of a goalkeeper.

He makes David james or Almunia or Gomes look secure and dependable in comparison, and really these keepers are all apt comparisons to Romero, Top Top shotstoppers, but absolute morons at everything else that constitute goalkeeping, goalkeepers that you could bet a house on that they will totally let you down at the highest level.

The Mistakes Romero has made all through his career with AZ in holland, Sampdoria, the Argentine NT have been consistent, and consistently laughable. He's one of the most incomplete goalkeepers at the national stage that i've ever seen, Probably the worst goalkeeper at the top level period. His positioning ability is worse then most championship goalkeepers, he flaps at anything with decent trajectory on it, He is an imbecile at attempting to come out to claim crosses (a goal he conceded versus Palermo was one of the softest cross goals i've ever seen allowed, also, remember the 4-3 vs brazil), and his decision making can be truly horrendous.

Romero is a great shotstopper and as long as that's all he has to do, he'll look great. but look beyond that, and if he does get tested beyond that, you'll see him for what he is. Trying to make the judgement that contrary to all these people who've watched him for the majority of his career he's actually a good goalkeeper because he's made 4 good saves in 5 games at the world cup, seems pretty damnably naive.

And about the last part, give it a break, anyone who's watched argentina knows they're lucky to have made it this far. They could've lost every single match they played.
 

Matador8

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He's shown glimpses of what he can do, but nothing out of the ordinary. He's looked a little out of sorts for quite a while now. He seems to have lost some explosive pace in certain positions, than say Two years ago. Saying that, it's all still in front of him, if he wants it. He could quite easily step it up a notch and do something really special at this World Cup.
 

Snake Plissken

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He's shown glimpses of what he can do, but nothing out of the ordinary. He's looked a little out of sorts for quite a while now. He seems to have lost some explosive pace in certain positions, than say Two years ago. Saying that, it's all still in front of him, if he wants it. He could quite easily step it up a notch and do something really special at this World Cup.
3 of his 4 goals have been far from ordinary.
 

Zii

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Why don't you go and direct that at the guy who I was responding to, the one who original mentioned Ronaldo, he's site admin by the way to good luck.

Helmet.
I'd tell him to stick to the rules if he did, but you brought him up.
 

Rykker_4united

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This is pretty damn naive thing to say. You can exempt Rojo, and i've never really followed him so i'm still learning about him, But Romero is unquestionable a calamity of a goalkeeper.

He makes David james or Almunia or Gomes look secure and dependable in comparison, and really these keepers are all apt comparisons to Romero, Top Top shotstoppers, but absolute morons at everything else that constitute goalkeeping, goalkeepers that you could bet a house on that they will totally let you down at the highest level.

The Mistakes Romero has made all through his career with AZ in holland, Sampdoria, the Argentine NT have been consistent, and consistently laughable. He's one of the most incomplete goalkeepers at the national stage that i've ever seen, Probably the worst goalkeeper at the top level period. His positioning ability is worse then most championship goalkeepers, he flaps at anything with decent trajectory on it, He is an imbecile at attempting to come out to claim crosses (a goal he conceded versus Palermo was one of the softest cross goals i've ever seen allowed, also, remember the 4-3 vs brazil), and his decision making can be truly horrendous.

Romero is a great shotstopper and as long as that's all he has to do, he'll look great. but look beyond that, and if he does get tested beyond that, you'll see him for what he is. Trying to make the judgement that contrary to all these people who've watched him for the majority of his career he's actually a good goalkeeper because he's made 4 good saves in 5 games at the world cup, seems pretty damnably naive.

And about the last part, give it a break, anyone who's watched argentina knows they're lucky to have made it this far. They could've lost every single match they played.
like i said, in this world cup he has been good enough. I don't give a flying feck about the rest of his career because some terrible play he made against palermo doesn't count for a goal when they play Belgium. He is a great shotstopper. Thank you for criticizing me with my own point.

Give it a break? Belgium have been the most boring team in the tournament bar Greece. Argentina haven't been 'lucky' to make it this far. They have been unconvincing in their final ball but they've played primarily - in fact only - against walls of 11 defenders. Belgium can't say the same and they were not nearly as good as they are being credited for in the game against USA. They easily could have lost that game. Belgium could easily have lost every match they played in with their dull, lifeless, zombie play and players like Hazard and Mertens trying to be a one-man show.
 

Cristiano_RAFC

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like i said, in this world cup he has been good enough. I don't give a flying feck about the rest of his career because some terrible play he made against palermo doesn't count for a goal when they play Belgium. He is a great shotstopper. Thank you for criticizing me with my own point.

Give it a break? Belgium have been the most boring team in the tournament bar Greece. Argentina haven't been 'lucky' to make it this far. They have been unconvincing in their final ball but they've played primarily - in fact only - against walls of 11 defenders. Belgium can't say the same and they were not nearly as good as they are being credited for in the game against USA. They easily could have lost that game. Belgium could easily have lost every match they played in with their dull, lifeless, zombie play and players like Hazard and Mertens trying to be a one-man show.
Our first three games surely weren't anything memorable. But you can't really believe the dull, lifeless, zombie play argument after yesterday's game, can you?
Most boring team bar Greece? That's just not true if you're objective. You're just exagerating now to make your point but it's not really based on anything now after the game that we all saw last night.

And yes, I realise that our group games were mostly dull affairs for the neutrals, but yesterday's game has to be taken into account as well, and it elevates us from boring to not-so-boring-after-all at the very least. By all means don't discount the first 3 games for your argument, but also don't discount the fourth game either. If you do, it makes the argument look rather silly.
 

Rykker_4united

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Our first three games surely weren't anything memorable. But you can't really believe the dull, lifeless, zombie play argument after yesterday's game, can you?
Most boring team bar Greece? That's just not true if you're objective. You're just exagerating now to make your point but it's not really based on anything now after the game that we all saw last night.

And yes, I realise that our group games were mostly dull affairs for the neutrals, but yesterday's game has to be taken into account as well, and it elevates us from boring to not-so-boring-after-all at the very least. By all means don't discount the first 3 games for your argument, but also don't discount the fourth game either. If you do, it makes the argument look rather silly.
I still thought they were poor and lucky to win against the USA
 

Brwned

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like i said, in this world cup he has been good enough. I don't give a flying feck about the rest of his career because some terrible play he made against palermo doesn't count for a goal when they play Belgium. He is a great shotstopper. Thank you for criticizing me with my own point.
Obviously Romero's career prior to the World Cup contributes to people's perception of him overall, so just because you haven't seen him previously doesn't mean everyone else should discount it. He's a very average keeper and it's a travesty he's picked ahead of Caballero, and if Argentina go all the way he is a potential disaster waiting to happen. He's already fumbled it plenty of times already. He did it in comical fashion in the last game for christ's sake.
 

Rykker_4united

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Obviously Romero's career prior to the World Cup contributes to people's perception of him overall, so just because you haven't seen him previously doesn't mean everyone else should discount it. He's a very average keeper and it's a travesty he's picked ahead of Caballero, and if Argentina go all the way he is a potential disaster waiting to happen. He's already fumbled it plenty of times already. He did it in comical fashion in the last game for christ's sake.
Not once did I say anybody should discount his entire career. I said this tournament he has played better than his CV shows he can. Like I said before, an accident years ago means nothing in this tournament. And yes, I believe Willy is a better keeper but Romero has not been the problem for Argentina.
 

Malva

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Not once did I say anybody should discount his entire career. I said this tournament he has played better than his CV shows he can. Like I said before, an accident years ago means nothing in this tournament. And yes, I believe Willy is a better keeper but Romero has not been the problem for Argentina.
If you think they're accidents you definitely don't know romero. I'm not talking about one incident, i'm talking about dozens every season. It's a lack of ability, not some series of unfortunate events.
Romero is a great shotstopper, but an absolute calamity of a goalkeeper overall. There are plenty of great shotstoppers in the world, what you want is always a good goalkeeper over a great shotstopper.
 

Rykker_4united

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If you think they're accidents you definitely don't know romero. I'm not talking about one incident, i'm talking about dozens every season. It's a lack of ability, not some series of unfortunate events.
Romero is a great shotstopper, but an absolute calamity of a goalkeeper overall. There are plenty of great shotstoppers in the world, what you want is always a good goalkeeper over a great shotstopper.
I've acknowledge if not here then in another thread that Romero is a shot stopper and thats about it. Although Willy should have been picked ahead of him, he's not necessarily the greatest thing ever either. Again, hardly think Romero is the biggest concern for the Argies. And this is also a Messi thread, so lets not further derail.
 

Malva

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I've acknowledge if not here then in another thread that Romero is a shot stopper and thats about it. Although Willy should have been picked ahead of him, he's not necessarily the greatest thing ever either. Again, hardly think Romero is the biggest concern for the Argies. And this is also a Messi thread, so lets not further derail.
sure thing. but my last difference with your view is about caballero, when you say he's not the greatest thing ever. Alright, by the technicalities of what you're saying that's true, but the framing of that sentence does nothing but discredit or dismiss Cabellero, when in truth Caballero was probably the top goalkeeper in La liga overall in the past 3 seasons. He's pretty much top class.
 

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Argentina's biggest problem is their central midfield. Mascherano has forgotten he used to be a midfielder. Gago is very average. Di Maria just isn't performing there. Their midfield is worse than ours, and we've all seen how even top attackers struggle to perform without a fluent, and fluid, midfield.