[Kag]

Which midfielders repeatedly bettered Carrick in Europe? He was a starting CM during our most successful run in Europe. Getting dominated by one of the all-time great midfields in two finals against Barcelona isn't a sign that he wasn't a top level CM.

I've provided several games as supporting evidence in this last page now. His performance against Bayern Munich in the 09/10 season wasn't up to standard either.

That we were hugely successful during this period doesn't negate the criticisms that were levelled at Carrick at the time. Our central midfield worked well up until 2009, but it wasn't the reason we were so successful.

 

[Minimalist]

I've provided several games as supporting evidence in this last page now. His performance against Bayern Munich in the 09/10 season wasn't up to standard either.

That we were hugely successful during this period doesn't negate the criticisms that were levelled at Carrick at the time. Our central midfield worked well up until 2009, but it wasn't the reason we were so successful.

Genuinely triggered reading that. Robben goal is literally down to him not standing up straight (being a pussy and diving out of the way).

 

[acnumber9]

Because I grew up watching him?

I'm sure you were a very attentive 10 year old.

 

[Ban]

What's this, slagging of Carrick?

 

[M Bison]

Carrick won't get the credit or respect he deserves until he's retired. Even our own fans criticise him unnecessarily.

He's been one of the best CMs for a generation and we'll look back on him in the same way we do Scholes/Keane etc.

 

[Dobbs]

we'll look back on him in the same way we do Scholes/Keane etc.

No chance.

He's been a very good signing, just what we needed at the time, but he's not up there with the greats.

 

[Bwuk]

The only constant in midfield in our most successful period ever and people are slagging him. Clueless.

 

[WhoDaGOAT]

The only constant in midfield in our most successful period ever and people are slagging him. Clueless.

The biggest compliment I can pay Carrick is that he replaced Keane in his own unique way.

 

[Dobbs]

The only constant in midfield in our most successful period ever and people are slagging him. Clueless.

Are people slagging him? @Kag has questioned where he stands in relation to the big midfielders but has still called him good/very good.

Struggling to see how he breaks into this current team. If anything he'll be included purely to give others a rest.

 

[Manny]

Because I grew up watching him?

Then you'd probably also know that he was surrounded by Vidal and Pogba at Juve to do his running for him. And Seedorf, Ambrosini and Guttuso before that... Not saying Carrick is better than Pirlo, but Pirlo has played in some superb central midfields.

I've provided several games as supporting evidence in this last page now. His performance against Bayern Munich in the 09/10 season wasn't up to standard either.

That we were hugely successful during this period doesn't negate the criticisms that were levelled at Carrick at the time. Our central midfield worked well up until 2009, but it wasn't the reason we were so successful.

So in your two examples, he failed against Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets (whilst carrying Giggs and Anderson), and against an LvG possession side whilst carrying Gibson. And we were playing with 10 men for 40 mins... Have you ever considered looking at the state of our midfield and the players he had to partner with before slagging him off?

 

[berbatrick]

I'm a Carrick fan, he is no Pirlo and never was. Pirlo's attacking vision is something else, he is unflappable under pressure with amazing dribbling ability at zero pace, and he is a dead ball master too. Of course Carrick is better defensively, but overall it's Pirlo by a distance.

Alonso is a much better comparison. Same position and style of play, same weakness. In fact the last time they met while both were in their prime was the Madrid CL games. Kagawa/Welbeck silenced Alonso, while Carrick played a very defensive role and had a few great moments (sent Evra clean through and Varane should have been red carded, headed pass for Rvp, nice skills to escape pressing) and no mistakes vs genuine top-class opposition.
I don't know if they played in the Moyes Bayern games because that season has been wiped from memory.
And just as much as Carrick sucked vs LvG's Bayern, Alonso was ripped apart by Klopp's Dortmund. And Carrick has had tons of big European games: Inter 2009 and Chelsea 2011 were probably his best.


I really don't get the Fletcher argument. They're very different players, and Carrick is much rarer and for me personally someone who controls most games is better than a normal box-to-box midfielder. (Vidal is box-to-box too but his passing is extraordinary and he has shown the ability to run the whole team's passing by himself).

 

[Sammyjunn]

He went from severly underrated, to a little bit overrated now imo. He's brilliant but please dont put him in same sentences as Scholes, Keane, Pirlo.

 

[berbatrick]

Meanwhile, here is a young Keane+Scholes hybrid who mysteriously disappeared after this transfer.

 

[Kag]

So in your two examples, he failed against Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets (whilst carrying Giggs and Anderson), and against an LvG possession side whilst carrying Gibson. And we were playing with 10 men for 40 mins... Have you ever considered looking at the state of our midfield and the players he had to partner with before slagging him off?

I don't think Carrick's midfield partners are too important here. He's had the same issues whether he's been playing with Scholes or (as you say) Gibson.

Carrick's inability to deal with the press in bigger matches and his tendency to shy away from stamping authority on a game was prevalent for a number of years, heavily debated, and very prevalent in the England matches I highlighted earlier. When he was given chances, he didn't take them.

It's why I think it's Carrick responsible for his underwhelming England career, and not a case of four (very different) managers being oblivious to something special. They had all worked in different countries, and two of them (Eriksson and Capello) had managed some seriously good players at club level.

I'm not sure why some people are all of a sudden so shocked at the suggestion that Carrick wasn't one of the best midfielders in Europe. He's never really been close, in spite of being a very good player.

 

[Dobbs]

Meanwhile, here is a young Keane+Scholes hybrid who mysteriously disappeared after this transfer.

Quite a frustrating player when you watch those. Obviously a very good player for us but with a bit more aggression or maybe ego he could have been so much more.

He dropped too deep too quickly for my liking. Maybe it was under instruction but I think he's shyed away from the business end of the pitch.

 

[berbatrick]

I don't think Carrick's midfield partners are too important here. He's had the same issues whether he's been playing with Scholes or (as you say) Gibson.

Carrick's inability to deal with the press in bigger matches and his tendency to shy away from stamping authority on a game was prevalent for a number of years, heavily debated, and very prevalent in the England matches I highlighted earlier. When he was given chances, he didn't take them.

It's why I think it's Carrick responsible for his underwhelming England career, and not a case of four (very different) managers being oblivious to something special. They had all worked in different countries, and two of them (Eriksson and Capello) had managed some seriously good players at club level.

I'm not sure why some people are all of a sudden so shocked at the suggestion that Carrick wasn't one of the best midfielders in Europe. He's never really been close, in spite of being a very good player.

3 bad games on the big stage that everyone can recall...do they show some systemic issues or is it simply hard to deal with Iniesta and Xavi surging forward with virtually no protection added to Messi dropping into your zone?



@Dobbs
I think SAF publicly said he told Carrick to sit deep and let Scholes move forward. Later, let Cleverley/Fletcher buzz around and provide movement while Carrick dictates.

Edit: the confidence on the ball in those videos is another level to what we've seen here. That can't only be instructions, unless his only priority was keep-ball.

 

[YouOnlyLiveTwice]

I have written this before, but the reason Carrick is not rated in England is his style of play ie not being a hyperactive player running from box-to-box tackling all over the pitch.

In La Liga he would be much more appreciated and Spain in general.

 

[AR87]

I have written this before, but the reason Carrick is not rated in England is his style of play ie not being a hyperactive player running from box-to-box tackling all over the pitch.

In La Liga he would be much more appreciated and Spain in general.

Xabi Alonso agrees with you

 

[Kag]

3 bad games on the big stage that everyone can recall...do they show some systemic issues or is it simply hard to deal with Iniesta and Xavi surging forward with virtually no protection added to Messi dropping into your zone?

I've highlighted games I can remember. I can't be expected to provide you with a comprehensive list of games that were played as far back as eight years ago. Carrick has had issues when pressed. When this happened, he found it hard to get on the ball and impact the game. It was something that always held him back. So, yes, I think the issue was systemic. Or, rather, he just wasn't that good.

Which is no problem at all, really, I just feel that some of the criticism levelled at England managers is unjustified. As is some of the rhetoric directed at English football, or those pesky, box-to-box, knuckle-dragging cavemen that go by the names Lampard and Gerrard. Newsflash; they were much better.

 

[acnumber9]

At his best I think Fletcher was a more effective player. He was struck down at the top of his game and we missed his intensity in midfield for a very long time. A case of what could have been.

He was nothing more than a peripheral figure in our best season since 99.

 

[berbatrick]

I've highlighted games I can remember. I can't be expected to provide you with a comprehensive list of games that were played as far back as eight years ago. Carrick has had issues when pressed. When this happened, he found it hard to get on the ball and impact the game. It was something that always held him back. So, yes, I think the issue was systemic. Or, rather, he just wasn't that good.

Which is no problem at all, really, I just feel that some of the criticism levelled at England managers is unjustified. As is some of the rhetoric directed at English football, or those pesky, box-to-box, knuckle-dragging cavemen that go by the names Lampard and Gerrard. Newsflash; they were much better.

A Carrick-Gerrard-Lampard midfield 3 would infact be perfectly balanced, while the 2-man Lampard-Stevie midfield every England manager tried was unbalaned and constantly exposed. That explains the frustration.

Also, the three are very different midfielders.


Edit: Alonso has huge issues when pressed too but is readily admitted into the elite midfielder club.

 

[Manny]

Quite a frustrating player when you watch those. Obviously a very good player for us but with a bit more aggression or maybe ego he could have been so much more.

He dropped too deep too quickly for my liking. Maybe it was under instruction but I think he's shyed away from the business end of the pitch.

I actually prefer the Carrick he became then the aggressive destroyer/runner in the video. He's all over the place. He became more intelligent/efficient after he joined us, but I agree with you on the ego.

Funnily enough, had he stayed that Carrick in the video, he might have had Scott Parker's and Gareth Barry's England caps too.

 

[Kag]

A Carrick-Gerrard-Lampard midfield 3 would infact be perfectly balanced, while the 2-man Lampard-Stevie midfield every England manager tried was unbalaned and constantly exposed. That explains the frustration.

Also, the three are very different midfielders.

Edit: Alonso has huge issues when pressed too but is readily admitted into the elite midfielder club.

It would have been nicely balanced on paper, and it's a shame we never got to see the result. But, like I said, I don't think Carrick ever really did enough to demand that spot. When he did get international starts he didn't make the most of them. Even Owen Hargreaves managed to do that.

Alonso is a funny one. I do think he's a step below the likes of Pirlo, Xavi and Busquets, but I think he's been a better player than Carrick. He played with a bit more drive and dynamism, in my opinion.

 

[Brwned]

He did have chances. Not plenty, but enough to make a mark. He started against Macedonia and Croatia, two games in which we dropped points during our failure to qualify for Euro 2008. He also started against Montenegro a few years back, failing to control the game in a second half in which we were overrun and lucky not to lose. He also started a friendly against Spain and was outclassed by better opposition in that 2-0 defeat.

I personally think Carrick was one of the best midfielders in the world for an extended period of time but I do agree that he must have some regrets about his own performances for England. I think he was misused and under appreciated, and ultimately because of that he was up against it to establish himself in the team, but I don't think he did enough to do anything about that. Since joining us in 2007 he started the following games:

• 2-1 Uruguay
• 1-0 Ecuador
• 0-0 Macedonia
• 0-2 Croatia
• 0-2 Spain
• 0-1 Ukraine
• 3-1 Mexico
• 2-1 Italy
• 5-0 San Marino
• 1-1 Poland
• 1-1 Montenegro
• 1-1 Ireland
• 2-2 Brazil
• 2-0 Poland
• 4-0 Lithuania
• 0-2 Spain

7 wins, 5 draws, 4 losses. Not catastrophic but hardly inspiring. He did perform very well in his one performance at a major tournament, in all fairness.

 

[acnumber9]

I think what we've learned from this thread is that sometimes players have bad games. It's lucky that everyone didn't watch every game Pirlo or the like played or maybe their estimation would be lowered by the fact they occasionally had bad games.

 

[Dec9003]

I'm sure you were a very attentive 10 year old.

Either that or you were a thick one

 

[acnumber9]

Either that or you were a thick one

Well he wasn't playing when I was 10 so I've no need to pretend.

 

[Jaybomb]

If he plays on Saturday, we'll lose. Simple as that.

He hasn't got the legs anymore. And a midfield two of him and Pogba looks like utter shite in my opinion. Maybe a midfield 3 with Schneiderlin-Pogba ahead of him. But even that is a stretch for me.

I fear he will get overrun by the likes of Fernandinho. I'll never forget that game against Arsenal last season with him and Bastian in the middle... we got destroyed.

 

[Dec9003]

Well he wasn't playing when I was 10 so I've no need to pretend.

I reckon he was, bet you're 14 really

 

[acnumber9]

I reckon he was, bet you're 14 really

Even if I were my experience of him would be largely from Champions League and international tournaments. Like most on here I'd be willing to bet. So I wouldn't really be able to comment on his consistency.

 

[NoPace]

I've highlighted games I can remember. I can't be expected to provide you with a comprehensive list of games that were played as far back as eight years ago. Carrick has had issues when pressed. When this happened, he found it hard to get on the ball and impact the game. It was something that always held him back. So, yes, I think the issue was systemic. Or, rather, he just wasn't that good.

Which is no problem at all, really, I just feel that some of the criticism levelled at England managers is unjustified. As is some of the rhetoric directed at English football, or those pesky, box-to-box, knuckle-dragging cavemen that go by the names Lampard and Gerrard. Newsflash; they were much better.

First paragraph I agree with, but Carrick was a better 6 than Gerrard or Lampard. Should have been all 3 together or one of the latter two dropped to come in as the impact sub.

Prime Carrick was a fine 6. Not quite as good as Alonso and not near Busquets but still a fine player.

Peak Fletcher was probably better against tough opponents but it was a short peak and for a 38 game league season where you need to win the easy games to get to 85 points you'd go with Carrick's distribution and consistent shielding of the CBs over Fletcher's energy.

 

[Mike09]

Such an underrated player. Even some of our fans still underrated him. You can't bring success with Jones, 38 years old Ryan Giggs, Cleverley, and Anderson as centre mid alone without world class midfielder. Carrick has been playing with them for so many years and we still won the league twice and went to final Champion League. And when his leg is gone last season, Schneiderlin, Herrera and Fellaini, three of them together couldn't bring success to this club because it's not an easy job play as a one man midfield. And that's why we signed Pogba.

 

[friendlytramp]

Where is he?

 

[lem8sh]

I have written this before, but the reason Carrick is not rated in England is his style of play ie not being a hyperactive player running from box-to-box tackling all over the pitch.

In La Liga he would be much more appreciated and Spain in general.

Absolutely correct.

 

[Devil may care]

I'm surprised he's 5th choice of our CM's, given his experience I thought he might have made the bench today but i wonder if he's mainly been kept for his experience in training and to keep stability in the dressing room, and he'll just play cup games.

 

[Leftback99]

Our passing game is poor without him. Strange that he hasn't been used so far.

 

[Jaybomb]

It's the right choice. We shouldn't be relying on him when we have Pogba/Fellaini/Schneiderlin/Herrera/Mensah to choose from. He'll be gone next season and then... what? Play these guys now and next season, they'll be even better.

Schneiderlin is really getting the raw end of the deal here.

 

[SambaBoy]

Would like to see him feature more, his passing between the lines is something we miss, plus his calm presence in the midfield next to Pogba and one of Schneiderlin/Fellaini/Herrera would work well and be similar to the 3 used in Juventus' midfield.

 

[MDFC Manager]

Our team still can't play without him in Europe

 

[Bojan11]

Our team still can't play without him in Europe

Strange bump.

Herrera and Schneiderlin have been our best two players. It's our attack that has been piss poor.