Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch

Something so trivial like the opposition celebrating a victory has really got under their skin.
 
SilentWitness said:
Not winning a trophy with the time he's been there and the money spent will be a failure ulimately. One trophy in 4-5 years and going out of the domestic cups so early this season is poor showing. That Liverpool win could be huge though. If you end up not winning the title but being only 1-3 points off I think he will have just shown enough that there is a possibility next year could be a good one, especially with Klopp gone, but if you end up having a bad spell again and you're 5-10 points adrift, I just don't think he has that extra step in him to take you to a title that the elite managers like Klopp, Pep et al. do.
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As long as Arsenal finishes in top 4, and the performance is good to watch, to me Arteta has done a great job. Man Utd and Chelsea spent more money and both of them are not in a better position than Arsenal either.
 
ThierryHenry14 said:
As long as Arsenal finishes in top 4, and the performance is good to watch, to me Arteta has done a great job. Man Utd and Chelsea spent more money and both of them are not in a better position than Arsenal either.
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If only spending money was the only way to guarantee success?

Both United and Chelsea have had changes in manager, staff and ownership. Arsenal have been settled for much longer (and have also spent a fortune themselves)
 
ThierryHenry14 said:
As long as Arsenal finishes in top 4, and the performance is good to watch, to me Arteta has done a great job. Man Utd and Chelsea spent more money and both of them are not in a better position than Arsenal either.
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This whole idea that Arsenal spend less amount and Arteta is managing some mighty underdogs need to die. Arteta has spent crazy amount of money himself and yet somehow his expectations are top4 , no trophy but United manager is supposed to challenge for the title every season. Arteta has been longer than eth abd poch and has gotten enough backing. He was spending good money and finishing 8th and 5th. He spent insane money in the last 2 seasons, funnily almost similar or even more than Manchester United.

Saying Arteta is doing a good job is acceptable but bringing the money argument without any context is silly.
 
ThierryHenry14 said:
As long as Arsenal finishes in top 4, and the performance is good to watch, to me Arteta has done a great job. Man Utd and Chelsea spent more money and both of them are not in a better position than Arsenal either.
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At what point does there become pressure to deliver though? We said the same about Klopp early on but I think we would've seen pressure build if nothing substantial (trophies) had been delivered. Even now Klopp is questioned because of the volume of success.

Arteta does eventually need to deliver a title. I understand your point of view though. When you haven't been good for a while, having a competent manager and a feel good factor is a nice feeling.
 
AshRK said:
This whole idea that Arsenal spend less amount and Arteta is managing some mighty underdogs need to die. Arteta has spent crazy amount of money himself and yet somehow his expectations are top4 , no trophy but United manager is supposed to challenge for the title every season. Arteta has been longer than eth abd poch and has gotten enough backing. He was spending good money and finishing 8th and 5th. He spent insane money in the last 2 seasons, funnily almost similar or even more than Manchester United.

Saying Arteta is doing a good job is acceptable but bringing the money argument without any context is silly.
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Spending since Arteta took over in Euros (because that's how Transfermarkt lists them):
Arsenal - 688m
United - 748m
Chelsea - 1.44b

So Arteta has spent 60m and 756m less than the Managers at United and Chelsea repsectively. And he's won a trophy.

For me, finishing a little behind Pep's City wouldn't be a mark of shame even if they didn't have 115 charges against them.
 
Klopper76 said:
At what point does there become pressure to deliver though? We said the same about Klopp early on but I think we would've seen pressure build if nothing substantial (trophies) had been delivered. Even now Klopp is questioned because of the volume of success.

Arteta does eventually need to deliver a title. I understand your point of view though. When you haven't been good for a while, having a competent manager and a feel good factor is a nice feeling.
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I see what you mean, but I think the people questioning Klopp's volume of success are crazy. And generally, it's usually jealous fans. It doesn't tend to be City fans who look down on Klopp's tenure (if anything, it serves to validate Pep's success). It's the fans of other clubs who, I think deep down, wish Klopp had managed their club instead.
 
Daydreamer said:
Spending since Arteta took over in Euros (because that's how Transfermarkt lists them):
Arsenal - 688m
United - 748m
Chelsea - 1.44b

So Arteta has spent 60m and 756m less than the Managers at United and Chelsea repsectively. And he's won a trophy.

For me, finishing a little behind Pep's City wouldn't be a mark of shame even if they didn't have 115 charges against them.
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I’m not sure what the money here has to do with anything as already pointed out. United won a trophy too but have also has several different managers in that time, as have Chelsea, and both ownership and structural changes.

Arsenal and Arteta should be doing better than both clubs and they are.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
I think if Arsenal had an impressive CL campaign (let's say narrowly missing an appearance in the final), that would solidify his reputation.
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Yes, I think he's a good manager but for me he needs to do something of note in the UCL to be talked as one of the best managers in Europe. With Klopp back on his Dortmund days I considered him one of the best managers no just because how he was dominating the Bundesliga but also because of his brand of football and having very successful campaigns in UCL with such team.
 
TheReligion said:
I’m not sure what the money here has to do with anything as already pointed out. United won a trophy too but have also has several different managers in that time, as have Chelsea, and both ownership and structural changes.

Arsenal and Arteta should be doing better than both clubs and they are.
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You mention the management and ownership changes at Chelsea and United as relevant context (and I agree). Surely spending €60m and the thick edge of €750+ more than Arsenal is also relevant context?

Arteta is competing with rivals that have spent more (and in the case of Chelsea, vastly more) than the to catch up with Liverpool and City. You say that Arsenal and Arteta “should be doing better than those clubs”, but I’m not sure why that such a given, particularly as this is his first management job.

He’s made a few mistakes, but on the whole he’s done a pretty decent job.
 
ThierryHenry14 said:
As long as Arsenal finishes in top 4, and the performance is good to watch, to me Arteta has done a great job. Man Utd and Chelsea spent more money and both of them are not in a better position than Arsenal either.
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So basically Wenger's final years. I remember when he was mocked for only ever going for the top 4 trophy. As usual, he was a visionary.
 
Daydreamer said:
You mention the management and ownership changes at Chelsea and United as relevant context (and I agree). Surely spending €60m and the thick edge of €750+ more than Arsenal is also relevant context?

Arteta is competing with rivals that have spent more (and in the case of Chelsea, vastly more) than the to catch up with Liverpool and City. You say that Arsenal and Arteta “should be doing better than those clubs”, but I’m not sure why that such a given, particularly as this is his first management job.

He’s made a few mistakes, but on the whole he’s done a pretty decent job.
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Why? Well he’s been at the club longer than either of the current managers at United/Chelsea and has had multiple windows to shape his squad.

Using money spent as some kind of evidence seems a bit simple. He’s spent 60m less than United in that period however United have had three managers, no real recruitment strategy and have accumulated a mix of players unsuited to any one philosophy. They’ve also won a trophy and quality for the CL though…
 
Daydreamer said:
You mention the management and ownership changes at Chelsea and United as relevant context (and I agree). Surely spending €60m and the thick edge of €750+ more than Arsenal is also relevant context?

Arteta is competing with rivals that have spent more (and in the case of Chelsea, vastly more) than the to catch up with Liverpool and City. You say that Arsenal and Arteta “should be doing better than those clubs”, but I’m not sure why that such a given, particularly as this is his first management job.

He’s made a few mistakes, but on the whole he’s done a pretty decent job.
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Arteta has spent €688,240,000 so its not like he has been operating on a shoe string budget
 
Klopper76 said:
At what point does there become pressure to deliver though? We said the same about Klopp early on but I think we would've seen pressure build if nothing substantial (trophies) had been delivered. Even now Klopp is questioned because of the volume of success.

Arteta does eventually need to deliver a title. I understand your point of view though. When you haven't been good for a while, having a competent manager and a feel good factor is a nice feeling.
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At this point to me what Arsenal needs is stability, consistent performance in the field, and consistent finish in top 4 for now. Then build from there. What Klopp has achieved for Liverpool in such a short period of time is remarkable. The Arsenal board and the fans are happy with Arteta as head coach for the time being.
 
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ThierryHenry14 said:
As long as Arsenal finishes in top 4, and the performance is good to watch, to me Arteta has done a great job. Man Utd and Chelsea spent more money and both of them are not in a better position than Arsenal either.
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United and Chelsea have spent more money and have changed managers because they didn't do what they should have with that money which was spent. At some point you need to get return on that investment. Yes, Arteta won that FA cup but he can't ride on that early trophy win forever, he needs to start performing quite soon before as he runs the risk of being a nearly man. At the same point of their tenures, Klopp was already a CL finalist and then won the CL and PL. Arteta has gone out with a whimper this season in the FA and League cup early on. If he doesn't go fairly deep in the CL and mount a serious challenge this season, it should make people at Arsenal question if he has what it takes to get over the line.
 
ThierryHenry14 said:
At this point to me what Arsenal needs is stability, consistent performance in the field, and consistent finish in top 4 for now. Then build from there. What Klopp has achieved for Liverpool in such a short period of time is remarkable. The Arsenal board and the fans are happy with Arteta as head coach for the time being.
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I think you're well within your rights to be happy with where Arsenal are at. There are limits to how long top four finishes and challenging alone are enough however.

I suspect that in a year or two if Arsenal are still the bridesmaid's, questions will be asked.
 
Reading these comments and reflecting on just how far we have come under this very good manager. Apparently we're a joke if we don't win the Champions League or the Barclays now. A few years ago we were just a joke. I'm happy.
 
TheReligion said:
Why? Well he’s been at the club longer than either of the current managers at United/Chelsea and has had multiple windows to shape his squad.

Using money spent as some kind of evidence seems a bit simple. He’s spent 60m less than United in that period however United have had three managers, no real recruitment strategy and have accumulated a mix of players unsuited to any one philosophy. They’ve also won a trophy and quality for the CL though…
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Aye, outperforming United and Chelsea shouldn't be seen as something to be lauded given how it's widely accepted how poorly both clubs have been run. Given their reputations, it should be a given that any decent manager worth his salt would be overperforming those two clubs.
 
AltiUn said:
Aye, outperforming United and Chelsea shouldn't be seen as something to be lauded given how it's widely accepted how poorly both clubs have been run. Given their reputations, it should be a given that any decent manager worth his salt would be overperforming those two clubs.
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The thing is, nothing is a given in football? It was only a couple years ago we were classed as poorly run remember, who had hired an out of depth rookie manager in his first managerial job.
 
Klopper76 said:
I think you're well within your rights to be happy with where Arsenal are at. There are limits to how long top four finishes and challenging alone are enough however.

I suspect that in a year or two if Arsenal are still the bridesmaid's, questions will be asked.
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If City keep cleaning up with Arsenal finishing a close second, then not many questions will be asked. But if other clubs are winning something of note while Arsenal don't, that's a problem for sure.
 
erikcred said:
If City keep cleaning up with Arsenal finishing a close second, then not many questions will be asked. But if other clubs are winning something of note while Arsenal don't, that's a problem for sure.
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Yep, that’s where I’m at.
 
Rooney in Paris said:
In that game, he played straight into Pep's hand. City voluntarily gave up possession and Arteta was schooled. So weird to use that specific game as a testament to his tactical acumen, it goes straight against it.
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I think it's less testament to his tactical acumen and more about how he made Pep feel the need to go against his philosophy. How often does Pep give up possession against any opposition?
 
erikcred said:
If City keep cleaning up with Arsenal finishing a close second, then not many questions will be asked. But if other clubs are winning something of note while Arsenal don't, that's a problem for sure.
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This is my take. We are living in the age of City. You really can’t fault Arteta if he doesn’t win the league unless City has a bad year. Klopp was the only one who took advantage of that for one year and won.
 
Klopper76 said:
At what point does there become pressure to deliver though? We said the same about Klopp early on but I think we would've seen pressure build if nothing substantial (trophies) had been delivered. Even now Klopp is questioned because of the volume of success.

Arteta does eventually need to deliver a title. I understand your point of view though. When you haven't been good for a while, having a competent manager and a feel good factor is a nice feeling.
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Actually no, I dont think Arteta needs to deliver anything other than consistent top 4 qualification, CL participation and increasing the reach of the club around the world in doing so. At least from an internal metrics perspective.

What the fans want and what the club deem important are two different things.

This is why you would have never fired Klopp even if you won nothing substantial again. Klopp made Liverpool relevant again after many years of mediocrity, and that return to consistency at the top level is what has bought him the trust that he has had over the years.

Here is the key bit, I'd say though...

Arteta has the ability to keep Arsenal competing at the top and Arsenal hold him to that. But Arsenal also see the potential of Arteta to win the big prizes too, and that further strengthens their case of holding onto him and giving him time and space to deliver. The club know that they have struck gold with Arteta and are ready to give him the support he needs, within the club's means of course, to realise that potential.
 
There is a sizeable Arsenal supporter contingent that wants Arteta out. I personally don't get it, but I know football fans are a fickle lot. He is not at the Klopp or Pep level yet but I think he can legitimately get there one day. He is growing tactically. There are very few games we are getting outplayed and as good as Wenger was, we were looking pretty bad versus the top teams in much of the last decade of his time.

I feel he second guesses himself a fair bit still, but there is no other manager out there other than those two I would trade him with. Along with the squad, there is room to grow and I am hopeful we will under him. I am not so sure he is staying all that long for some reason though.
 
Changeisgood said:
There is a sizeable Arsenal supporter contingent that wants Arteta out. I personally don't get it, but I know football fans are a fickle lot. He is not at the Klopp or Pep level yet but I think he can legitimately get there one day. He is growing tactically. There are very few games we are getting outplayed and as good as Wenger was, we were looking pretty bad versus the top teams in much of the last decade of his time.

I feel he second guesses himself a fair bit still, but there is no other manager out there other than those two I would trade him with. Along with the squad, there is room to grow and I am hopeful we will under him. I am not so sure he is staying all that long for some reason though.
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They're back to at least 2007-2010 Arsenal. Arsenal haven't really managed to be in a title race for a number of years before Arteta.

Unless you're bringing in a dead cert like Klopp or Ancelotti I don't see the need to sack him.
 
Klopper76 said:
At what point does there become pressure to deliver though? We said the same about Klopp early on but I think we would've seen pressure build if nothing substantial (trophies) had been delivered. Even now Klopp is questioned because of the volume of success.

Arteta does eventually need to deliver a title. I understand your point of view though. When you haven't been good for a while, having a competent manager and a feel good factor is a nice feeling.
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I think Arteta will get till 2025 atleast.
Its not just that simple though, Elite managers are quite rare currently. Pep and then Klopp but not much after that. When you would be replacing Klopp next year offcourse you need a manager who is great but how likely is it that you would get a manager better than Arteta? You have been through this cycle before Klopp yourself.

And many say that Arsenal have been settled for a while but most clubs are in turmoil because the go through the manager merry go round. Arsenal accepted this will be a long project and stick to it. Slow and steady growth was requirement and expectation now then people cannot complain that progress is slow.
 
Changeisgood said:
There is a sizeable Arsenal supporter contingent that wants Arteta out. I personally don't get it, but I know football fans are a fickle lot. He is not at the Klopp or Pep level yet but I think he can legitimately get there one day. He is growing tactically. There are very few games we are getting outplayed and as good as Wenger was, we were looking pretty bad versus the top teams in much of the last decade of his time.

I feel he second guesses himself a fair bit still, but there is no other manager out there other than those two I would trade him with. Along with the squad, there is room to grow and I am hopeful we will under him. I am not so sure he is staying all that long for some reason though.
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Thats just not true
 
horsechoker said:
They're back to at least 2007-2010 Arsenal. Arsenal haven't really managed to be in a title race for a number of years before Arteta.

Unless you're bringing in a dead cert like Klopp or Ancelotti I don't see the need to sack him.
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There is no clear better option for us. He has brought us back to at least where we should be. I am not sure we will make that junction but then again I am not sure any team can unless City get punished.
 
horsechoker said:
They're back to at least 2007-2010 Arsenal. Arsenal haven't really managed to be in a title race for a number of years before Arteta.

Unless you're bringing in a dead cert like Klopp or Ancelotti I don't see the need to sack him.
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I think it would be an absurd decision to part with him. Even if they don't win the league this season but are in and around the top two that's an inexperienced manager in his first managerial role successfully challenging twice in a competitive environment and in the previous season played the best football by a country mile which fell apart at the last hurdle.

If Arteta keeps his trajectory up he's nailed on to reputably be amongst the very best in Europe. He's demonstrating a very high ceiling given he's a 41 year old rookie.
 
There is not a sizeable contingent that wants him out, that's absolute nonsense. I don't know a single Arsenal fan that does. I was more sceptical than most, between the horror run in winter 2020 to the supine draw with Villarreal that saw us out of the Europa League in 2021. Since then it's been basically an upward trajectory to becoming one of the best teams in Europe. He needs to win something big for it to be widely accepted, but he's really really good at his job.
 
Changeisgood said:
There is a sizeable Arsenal supporter contingent that wants Arteta out. I personally don't get it, but I know football fans are a fickle lot. He is not at the Klopp or Pep level yet but I think he can legitimately get there one day. He is growing tactically. There are very few games we are getting outplayed and as good as Wenger was, we were looking pretty bad versus the top teams in much of the last decade of his time.

I feel he second guesses himself a fair bit still, but there is no other manager out there other than those two I would trade him with. Along with the squad, there is room to grow and I am hopeful we will under him. I am not so sure he is staying all that long for some reason though.
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Is this true? I know Arsenal fans tend to be very disillusioned but surely they are aware they were kind of in a title race last season and look to actually be in one this season?
 
I still don’t rate him. He’s capable of getting his team playing to a high level if they have 1 game a week. He’s unable to manage a squad or keep them going 2-3 games a week consistently. They came through a sticky period from 4-6 weeks ago because of that issue.

The reason they’ve done well since the turn of the year is because they’re out of the FA and League cup quite early on. There’s no CL until this week after a break from early December. I predict they’ll have another sticky period once they’re stuck into PL and CL week in week out.
 
Egalitard said:
There is not a sizeable contingent that wants him out, that's absolute nonsense. I don't know a single Arsenal fan that does. I was more sceptical than most, between the horror run in winter 2020 to the supine draw with Villarreal that saw us out of the Europa League in 2021. Since then it's been basically an upward trajectory to becoming one of the best teams in Europe. He needs to win something big for it to be widely accepted, but he's really really good at his job.
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Steady on. You got knocked out of the EL in the last 16 and you're only in the last 16 of the CL. He needs to get to at least the semis of the CL for that to be the case.
 
Egalitard said:
There is not a sizeable contingent that wants him out, that's absolute nonsense. I don't know a single Arsenal fan that does. I was more sceptical than most, between the horror run in winter 2020 to the supine draw with Villarreal that saw us out of the Europa League in 2021. Since then it's been basically an upward trajectory to becoming one of the best teams in Europe. He needs to win something big for it to be widely accepted, but he's really really good at his job.
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Unfortunately, it is very true. Go to our main forums for starters. My guess is there are a few of us here because we're tired of seeing it.
 
The Corinthian said:
I still don’t rate him. He’s capable of getting his team playing to a high level if they have 1 game a week. He’s unable to manage a squad or keep them going 2-3 games a week consistently. They came through a sticky period from 4-6 weeks ago because of that issue.

The reason they’ve done well since the turn of the year is because they’re out of the FA and League cup quite early on. There’s no CL until this week after a break from early December. I predict they’ll have another sticky period once they’re stuck into PL and CL week in week out.
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I think there probably is some truth to this. It's also likely a factor in United picking up form as well. Since the Bayern game we are DLWLWDWWWW in all comps, with Forest (A) and WHU (A) being the losses.

I am intrigued to see how they do, I still think they will come up short. They're actually on track to finish with less points than last season for all the positive press - that period in Dec was a big hit to them going from challengers to winning in my opinion.
 
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