It's not randomness. European and domestic competition aren't the same and performance doesn't track 1:1. Some clubs overperform domestically relative to continental performance, and some do the reverse. Historically, Arsenal are a European underperformer. Maybe Arteta's already changed that and we don't know, but it'd be wise to wait and see.
Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch
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Not even a dip in form. They won the league comfortably with a long winning streak and then fecked off the last two or three matches to focus on the treble. Touching distance indeed.
I'm glad that everyone hates us now. It used to be just sad when people actually pity us.
And yes, until Arteta actually win something of significance, i don't think you can call him an elite manager. Last year we bottled it up massively, it's actually embarrasing to collapse like that in the final third of the season.
And Arsenal have been perenial underachiever in Europe. Definitely not one of the best in Europe, not even close.
So i don't get bragging about us right now. We're basically just Spurs with an FA Cup until we won the PL or CL.
And yes, until Arteta actually win something of significance, i don't think you can call him an elite manager. Last year we bottled it up massively, it's actually embarrasing to collapse like that in the final third of the season.
And Arsenal have been perenial underachiever in Europe. Definitely not one of the best in Europe, not even close.
So i don't get bragging about us right now. We're basically just Spurs with an FA Cup until we won the PL or CL.
European and domestic competitions certainly aren't the same and many sides have struggled in Europe after impressive domestic campaigns (Arsenal historically being one of them). But there is a ton of randomness in football in general and especially in a tie played over 180 minutes. City lost those ties but in any of those seasons the claim "X side (which beat City in the CL) is a better team than City" would have been a terrible claim.
You just argued your own post against yourself when someone pointed out why it is silly. It doesn't matter about what ifs, that's not what makes you a top European side. You haven't done it yet.
No, it doesn't have to be as teams can have a below par season in the league and an above par season in Europe. The best teams in Europe are the ones which are challenging for titles and going deep in the CL or winning trophies in the league or Europe even if they have a dip in the other i.e City, Liverpool, Bayern, PSG, Madrid etc. Arsenal aside from the FA cup in 19/20 and a title challenge last season (which ended with a whimper) most certainly have not been a side who have done that.
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While I agree all this Europian talk is premature but winning CL is no criteria for that.
City won their first last season so City are one of the Strongest team in Europe only from this season. Thats nonsense.
Nobody is saying Arsenal is some kind of European heavyweight and everybody that knows anything about football realizes that teams often stumble in Europe. But if there are a fairly limited number of sides (maybe 4-6?) that you would bet on beating them in a tie if you had to place a huge wager on one or the other, then its hard to say they're not one of the best sides in Europe currently.
Sorry, mate. Didn't see you're a United supporter!What does "Ever." have to do with it?
Also, "you"
I support United, I'm just tired of the delusion in this thread
But I've to disagree with the hype you're placing on an 80+ points season in a league where multiple 90+ points finishes have not won the title.
Nope. You didn't read my posts. It's a combination of everything that makes you one of the best teams in Europe - strong European runs, domestic trophies etc. City were sweeping up domestically for years and going deep in the CL. Again, something Arsenal haven't done.
Indeed...to any other fanbase it wouldn't be controversial to say that they're not one of the best teams in Europe but yet again, Arsenal fans are the most touchy on the internet.
I agree. I think we are 1 of the best 7 or 8 teams in Europe currently, the same way I think Leverkusen are.
But these teams probably have to prove it in European competition to prove that.
The points totals have come down because the league has become more competitive.
Only 2 points separate the title contenders. Arsenal have 2 wins and a draw out of their head-to-heads against Liverpool / City. Even the bottom sides can afford to be ambitious in the transfer market and there are more dropped points.
90+ points is pretty meaningless. City didn’t reach it last season and they were officially the best team in Europe.
Arsenal challenged for the title last season. Arsenal are challenging for the title this season. By your own criteria, that would mean Arsenal are currently one of the best teams in Europe, wouldn’t it?
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No. I got my "and" and "or" mixed up in the post.
Meant to write this -
"The best teams in Europe are the ones which are challenging for titles and going deep in the CL or winning trophies in the league or Europe even if they have a dip in the other".
+ Last season you didn't really challenge as a top team in Europe would. Liverpool took city right to the end on multiple occasions and beat them to it in another. City won the league with three games to spare. You were certainly not in "touching distance".
Ah, fair enough.
It's also a ridiculous statement, full stop, without having to digress so much. It's in moments like these that you remember how overboard Arse fans go as soon as they've been good for about 5mns.
Interesting viewpoint. I’d say that Bayern Leverkusen are currently one of the best teams in Europe. Would you also consider that a ridiculous statement?
How do you guys feel about bookies making Arsenal the fourth favorites to win this year's CL, behind only City, Bayern, and Real?
Is the entire multi-billion pound industry of football gambling just not as perceptive about the true quality of footballing sides as the posters of Redcafe, foolishly thinking that Arsenal might be one of the best sides in Europe even though they haven't proven themselves yet?
Should we be expecting a wave of major bookmakers to go bankrupt soon given that every single one seems to believe such obvious nonsense?
Is the entire multi-billion pound industry of football gambling just not as perceptive about the true quality of footballing sides as the posters of Redcafe, foolishly thinking that Arsenal might be one of the best sides in Europe even though they haven't proven themselves yet?
Should we be expecting a wave of major bookmakers to go bankrupt soon given that every single one seems to believe such obvious nonsense?
People are doing mental gymnastics with weird definitions to police what "one of the best teams in Europe" means and tbh, fine, whatever. It seems very simple to me and you don't "have" to do anything except be really good. You don't think Arsenal are among the best in Europe? Okay. I'd be interested to see who you think are the top five.
I mean yeah probably.
Bayern have only played 1 CL final of the last 10, sacked their manager a year ago, barely won their domestic title, are behind in this year's title, and their fans don't seem to think they're playing anything special under Tuchel. Why are they 2nd favorites other than name recognition?
Arsenal are in top 10.
The thing about this argument is that it relies a lot on perceptions of the Premier League. There are some people who think it's way ahead of any other league and that placing 2nd there is, by definition, amazing. But not everyone agrees.
So Bayern are shit, Arsenal are shit. You didn’t mention Barcelona but with those criteria you put up they are obviously shit. What teams except Real and cheating City are good, actually?
Theyre bad too.
Well, it would be silly for the bookies to put Bayer Leverkusen or Liverpool above Arsenal in the CL odds. Neither play in it because of a poor season last year. But this year, can be argued they're both better than Arsenal.
Arsenal are obviously having a good couple of seasons and look to be in a title race for now. Just enjoy it, Arsenal fans. Not sure why you're moaning on a rival football forum about not getting enough praise.
It passes the time, doesn't it
The PL doesn't seem amazingly strong to me this season. Two top teams are having mediocre seasons (United and Chelsea). So is last season's upstart (Newcastle). Liverpool are rebuilding and don't look a formidable team. City "feel" weaker than in previous years but people are (correctly) rating them highly because they believe they'll show up when it matters. This is the context Arsenal is competing in, and they're third with 52 points in 24 games.
This performance extrapolates to 82 points at the end of the season, which objectively falls below 'title winning performance', as the PL is rarely won with point tallies as low. So to the extent that Arsenal (or Liverpool, or City) are 'competing,' it is because no one has been up to par yet. We can see this by comparing to other leagues. Barcelona and Juventus have a similar amount of points as Arsenal. But they are not seen as 'competing' because the top teams in La Liga and Serie A have 60+ points so the gap is seen as unsurmountable.
I don't have much of an issue with the claim that Arsenal are "one of the best teams in Europe," as that is ultimately just semantics, different people have different definitions. But surely you can understand that it comes across as arrogant to say "Arsenal are basically in the semifinals already" or "name a team that would beat Arsenal."
This performance extrapolates to 82 points at the end of the season, which objectively falls below 'title winning performance', as the PL is rarely won with point tallies as low. So to the extent that Arsenal (or Liverpool, or City) are 'competing,' it is because no one has been up to par yet. We can see this by comparing to other leagues. Barcelona and Juventus have a similar amount of points as Arsenal. But they are not seen as 'competing' because the top teams in La Liga and Serie A have 60+ points so the gap is seen as unsurmountable.
I don't have much of an issue with the claim that Arsenal are "one of the best teams in Europe," as that is ultimately just semantics, different people have different definitions. But surely you can understand that it comes across as arrogant to say "Arsenal are basically in the semifinals already" or "name a team that would beat Arsenal."
The Champions League is one of the biggest, therefore one of the sharpest betting markets out there, meaning that the bookmakers very rarely have inaccurate lines in those, as they literally can't afford to.
The draw obviously has an effect on the odds set by bookmakers, however the only tie that significantly decreases a teams' pre-draw chances is probably Inter vs Atlético.
However, I'm 99.99% sure that Arsenal were 4th favorites before the draw as well, so it doesn't really make a difference.
Pretty telling that Arsenal are considered very close to the level of Bayern and Madrid, two European heavyweights of recent years, and way ahead of PSG and Inter.
Liverpool maybe but not Leverkusen.
Using the logic displayed in the last few pages no one can argue Leverkusen are one of the best sides in Europe this season because they haven't been challenging consistently for the last 4 or 5 years.
I've definitely changed my mind on him. Arsenal look a really well coached team he's built a good side.
I think the overall competition at the top of the Premier League is excellent, Bayern seem to be being given a tough time by Leverkusen, the Dutch league is pretty competitive this year, Serie A lately always seems to be competitive, France and Portugal the usual suspects I expect, but in terms of actual great teams knocking around...it's Real and arguably City. The rest are all flawed but capable of great stuff, which is probably healthier for the state of the game overall in some ways but does make the CL less exciting I think. It'd be a big shock if Real don't win, and if it's not them it would be an even bigger shock if it weren't City.
Exactly. Leverkusen are also one of the best European sides currently, even though last year they finished on a measly 50 points, 12 points off the CL places.
Manchester City lost out in the CL quarters 4 seasons in a row, from 2017 to 2020, to Monaco, Liverpool, Tottenham, and Lyon, and yet no one would've argued that they were one of the best teams in Europe and a heavyweight in the CL.
But Manchester City were not a heavyweight in the CL. If you argued they were you would have been wrong.
I am sorry if it comes across as arrogant but it is what I sincerely believe. It would be entirely consistent with our season in Europe so far if our tie vs Porto is a tight away game and a blowout at home. Our group games at the Emirates ended 4-0, 2-0 and 6-0. Porto are third in Liga Portugal and lost against Arouca yesterday. My original statement was that we will easily progress and then we'll see who we get in the quarters, but if we don't get City or Real then I expect us to get to the semis (not "Arsenal are basically in the semifinals already"). Just calling it as I see it!
Maybe not in 2016/17 when Monaco beat them in Pep's first year. The other 3 seasons they were probably already the best team on the planet, they just managed to mess it up for themselves.
I think we might just be arguing semantics. My issue is the claim that they were "heavyweights in the CL." I don't think you can be considered a heavyweight in a competition that you have no track record in and when you get regularly beaten by anyone. Best team in some broader unquantifiable sense? Maybe.
I think we are both coming from roughly the same page.
If you have a great team you can win the lot. Don't think history matters that much and Arsenal does have older and experienced players such as Jorginho.
Personally i rate Arsenal higher than Bayern Munich. Arse have already beaten City this season so i do think that can happen again.
Very good defence especially IV, excellent midfield, Havertz fits in nicely and good attacking trio.
I think i put a small amount on them to win the CL, everything is there to do it.
Personally i rate Arsenal higher than Bayern Munich. Arse have already beaten City this season so i do think that can happen again.
Very good defence especially IV, excellent midfield, Havertz fits in nicely and good attacking trio.
I think i put a small amount on them to win the CL, everything is there to do it.
When people talk about leagues being weaker over certain seasons....is a league considered weaker if 1 or 2 teams get to 95+ points and the next best is 20+ points behind, or is a league weaker if the winners are on 85+ points and it's a lot more condensed, I've always wondered that?
Other than Real and City it is hard to place any team in a particular spot. We may be top 4 but we need to get to the semis at least to show that. Let's wait for the end of the season before making claims?