Thats a huge assumption right there. I dont see any evidence that RVP is undermining Moyes. Hey, what do I know, this is all in the future so I could be wrong but Id see it going more like the Rooney saga personally. I see no logic to letting RVP go at all. Madness wouldnt even begin to describe it.
Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
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I don't rate him myself, I just don't see signing a second choice left-back as high up on the priority list. Think we'll hold onto him another season unless something comes up.
No doubt. My point is what RVP wants is neither here nor there if he is under contract.
Yeah, I was being sarcastic. I'll add the rolly eyes next time for you. Clearly getting 6 quality players with no champions league football is going to be exceptionally difficult.simple
No, I'm saying IF RVP leaves, then one of the reasons could be that Moyes feels like he's undermining him. I didn't say that he categorically was undermining him at the moment. If the board is backing Moyes, then it makes sense for any rebelling players to be shipped out, even if it's someone as important as RVP.
Hate to belabour a point but how easy do we think it is to change tactics when half our coaching staff have no experience of coaching at this level and the other half have absolutely no experience of coaching whatsoever?
True. He's under contract and wouldn't be able to completely force his way out the club, but if he handed in a transfer request in the summer, was clearly unhappy and wanted to leave, and the club got a very good bid for him, then it's not impossible to consider he might leave. Although I personally expect it won't happen, it's a possibility, even if only a small one.
Maybe he wants to go? and would privately make his feelings clear? he signed up for Sir Alex and winning things, only to get dciked by the great man who knew it was his last season even as he brought him through the door, Our next few years are going to be a rebuilding project and at 30-31 his time is limited.
Right. Fair enough. Well Im saying RVP isnt going to leave because he is without question one of our best players and he is safely under contract. Moyes will want to get rid of the deadwood but there is no case to be made that RVP is that, Jesus he has been missing most of the season, he only just came back into the side so he can hardly be called out for underperforming. I think people are getting a little carried away with the doom and gloom predictions here, there are plenty of things for us to be worrying about but for me RVP leaving isnt one of them.
As long as we at least play better than we are now, I'm ok with the clearout.
But I am unsure of whether it is the personnel that's the problem now, some of the players suffering post-Fergie hangover and confidence drops or refusing to buy into Moyes' ideas and tactics, or lack of imagination on the part of Moyes and the coaching staff with the tactics.
Of course we will know that for sure if there's a clearout and a replacement with a number of Moyes' buys. Come Next December if we're still doing the same thing with different players, 82 crosses and scoring one. And if that's the case, he's gone.
But I am unsure of whether it is the personnel that's the problem now, some of the players suffering post-Fergie hangover and confidence drops or refusing to buy into Moyes' ideas and tactics, or lack of imagination on the part of Moyes and the coaching staff with the tactics.
Of course we will know that for sure if there's a clearout and a replacement with a number of Moyes' buys. Come Next December if we're still doing the same thing with different players, 82 crosses and scoring one. And if that's the case, he's gone.
It's been a very disappointing season so far (stating the obvious here).
I didn't really expect a title or even cup win as we all knew the transition would be difficult.
In the first few months we've had some bad luck, a lot of injuries, but with the large squad available, 4th place should have been ours. It's not completely over yet, but it seems like an unlikely goal after yesterday's result.
I've never been part of the Moyes-out group, but even if you want to protect the manager, we should be realistic.
There's a good chance of missing out on the CL and a single prize this season, so the rest of the season will be defining in terms of the way we play with players who still have a future here.
The results are certainly worrying, but looking at the long term, the way we play is even more important and we urgently need to so a lot of improvement in that area.
Sacking Moyes now would be pointless, as there aren't that many good replacements available now.
We have a few months left this season and they should be given to Moyes to show he can get Man Utd to play attractive and efficient football. All the key players are fit, we have incredible technical ability up front with Mata, Rooney, RVP and Januzaj and have some big games left. CL next round is a must, apart from that the football will be defining. Knowing our form and Moyes' record against the big teams, those games will also have a big say in his future at the club.
If he can't get this team to play to its potential, the patience would rightly run out.
I'm all for giving a manager time to build a team his way, but you should at least see signs of a recognizable, modern football idea on the field. If we don't see that evolution in the next months it would be the right option to replace Moyes.
Patience is a good thing, but you should always make sure it doesn't become just stubbornness
I didn't really expect a title or even cup win as we all knew the transition would be difficult.
In the first few months we've had some bad luck, a lot of injuries, but with the large squad available, 4th place should have been ours. It's not completely over yet, but it seems like an unlikely goal after yesterday's result.
I've never been part of the Moyes-out group, but even if you want to protect the manager, we should be realistic.
There's a good chance of missing out on the CL and a single prize this season, so the rest of the season will be defining in terms of the way we play with players who still have a future here.
The results are certainly worrying, but looking at the long term, the way we play is even more important and we urgently need to so a lot of improvement in that area.
Sacking Moyes now would be pointless, as there aren't that many good replacements available now.
We have a few months left this season and they should be given to Moyes to show he can get Man Utd to play attractive and efficient football. All the key players are fit, we have incredible technical ability up front with Mata, Rooney, RVP and Januzaj and have some big games left. CL next round is a must, apart from that the football will be defining. Knowing our form and Moyes' record against the big teams, those games will also have a big say in his future at the club.
If he can't get this team to play to its potential, the patience would rightly run out.
I'm all for giving a manager time to build a team his way, but you should at least see signs of a recognizable, modern football idea on the field. If we don't see that evolution in the next months it would be the right option to replace Moyes.
Patience is a good thing, but you should always make sure it doesn't become just stubbornness
If anything Moyes should relish the fact our remaining league games bare little significance. He can try and have us playing football for once, show us what he can do... This is me trying to be as positive as possible.
The thing with RVP is where is going to go? He aint going to Chelsea or City. So he is going to go abroad and that rules out Madrid, Bayern, Barca, PSG and Monaco. Juventus maybe? That might his only option. I think he will stay. He stayed at Arsenal for years when they were only decent. He has won the premier league. He aint going to win either with us or even if he leaves to Juve, he aint winning one there either.
Yep, in a sense the pressure is completely off now. Fate has smiled on Moyes, this is a gift few PL managers receive.
I guess one scenario where it might make sense to let RVP go is if he was a makeweight in bringing in a world class midfielder. But I cant see that would happen.
The thing is he doesnt know how. He doesnt really have the knowledge for it. He knows only to play one way and that doesnt look like changing, no matter who we bring in.
Barcelona, Madrid, Munich could all do worse in fairness. He's our best player and I'd hate to lose him, but there might be a possibility he'll be off in the summer.
Chica is leaving this summer as well. Then Rooney and Welbeck will be our options up top. No thank you. Keep RVP and build around him. Its not like we will be getting £30m for him anyway.
True.
Im starting to worry about Rooney staying now tho. That seems a far more precarious situation than the RVP one.
Bayern will have Lewandowski coming in, Barcelona won't drop Messi for him and it'd be a bit of a waste to sign him to play in Pedro's place. Madrid might like him, yeah.
If Rooney signs a new contract, I wouldn't mind selling RvP. Let's push Rooney up as a lone striker so he can't hit those diagonals out wide every time from the number ten position. End the reliance on crosses.
fair enough. sorry
Here's another theme of you being back. You talk more about other posters (weirdly, snidely without even quoting them) than you actually do about the topics being discussed. Depressing to see you add nothing as usual.
January
1 Tottenham (H) 1-2 :'(
5 FA v Swansea 1-2:'(
7 LC v Sunderland 1-2 :'(
11 Swansea (H) 2-0
19 Chelsea (A) 1-3 :'(
22 LC v Sunderland 1-2 :'( (dont even try and make out that this was actually a 2-1 win!!)
28 Cardiff (H) 2-0 Mata !
February
1 Stoke (A) 1-2 :''
8 Fulham (H) 2-2 !! :'(
Its a staggeringly poor run of results!
Lack of a response to defeats, conceding late goal after late goal, trying to defend slender leads, no tempo until we go behind, no invention beyond hopefully balls pumped into the box, woeful defending, Mata only player to assist a goal in last 3 games. Its an astonishing run of 'lows'
Arsenal next
And the fixtures for March look horrific!
And despite ALL that, I want him to stay. I dont want to be a Poo, Siddy or Chelsea and start sacking the manager every 5 mins. He should stay, and we just have to pray that he'll sort it out! I'm bracing myself for more pain tho :'(
1 Tottenham (H) 1-2 :'(
5 FA v Swansea 1-2:'(
7 LC v Sunderland 1-2 :'(
11 Swansea (H) 2-0
19 Chelsea (A) 1-3 :'(
22 LC v Sunderland 1-2 :'( (dont even try and make out that this was actually a 2-1 win!!)
28 Cardiff (H) 2-0 Mata !
February
1 Stoke (A) 1-2 :''
8 Fulham (H) 2-2 !! :'(
Its a staggeringly poor run of results!
Lack of a response to defeats, conceding late goal after late goal, trying to defend slender leads, no tempo until we go behind, no invention beyond hopefully balls pumped into the box, woeful defending, Mata only player to assist a goal in last 3 games. Its an astonishing run of 'lows'
Arsenal next
And the fixtures for March look horrific!
And despite ALL that, I want him to stay. I dont want to be a Poo, Siddy or Chelsea and start sacking the manager every 5 mins. He should stay, and we just have to pray that he'll sort it out! I'm bracing myself for more pain tho :'(
Same here, I think there's no other option, just .. endure this season. Somehow.
In which case he's at the wrong club, managing United there is a constant pressure of expectation to succeed.
Valiant effort, but ultimately you're not convincing anyone with that argument.
It's a good point.
Who is going to pay RvP the wages that we are paying him now? He'll stick around unless PSG comes in for him, so will Carrick
Rio, Evra, Vidic, Giggs and Nani are certs to leave, that will free a whole load of wages though we will only get about 11-13m for Nani
Rio, Evra, Vidic, Giggs and Nani are certs to leave, that will free a whole load of wages though we will only get about 11-13m for Nani
No pressure? Are you serious? He will still need to produce to prove to the Glazers he is the right man going forward into the next season. There was always going to be pressure on him and there will always be no matter where he goes. Thats the nature of the job.
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We need an Arab to takeover United and kick the Glazers out.. thats what we need. And the first thing would be to sack Moyes.
Green and Gold until Moyes is .... sacked.
The owners have little to do with it, we're going nowhere with Moyes at the helm.
http://espnfc.com/blog/_/name/manchesterunited/id/4290?cc=3436
Andy Mitten:
Andy Mitten:
As a naive young Manchester United supporter, I assumed that the players whom I supported in the first team were all close mates who did everything together, including playing football.
I assumed that they all got on and lived as one happy family and that they were all fans of the club who considered it a dream to play for United.
Then I grew up and met the players as a journalist and a different picture began to emerge. Some were mates, no doubt. The lads who played in the class of '92 -- David Beckham, Gary Neville, Paul Scholes etc. -- had much in common and remain friends.
Others, such as Gordon McQueen and Bryan Robson, became lifelong friends after meeting at the club in the 1980s.
But there were plenty of faces who didn't fit and much evidence of cliques.
Was goalkeeper Gary Bailey, who played for the club between 1978-87, for instance, bullied because his newspaper of choice on the team bus wasn't a tabloid? Or because he was “middle class”? Or because he didn't drink eight pints of beer on a night out?
I've interviewed hundreds of footballers, many of them former United players, and can count on the fingers of one hand the number who have left the club amicably on their own terms.
The usual deal is that they get told they're not being offered the contract that they're after and move on soon after, resentful because the manager did not see things as they did.
They are angry for a year or three, maybe even longer. For example, a couple of players from the 1960s refuse to have anything to do with their former life as United players. They don't like football and there's much not to like.
It's an unedifying industry where subjective opinions make or break careers but while the start of a career is often beautiful like a flower in bloom, the wilting end is not.
For different reasons, Sir Alex Ferguson let Mark Hughes, Paul Ince and Andrei Kanchelskis leave in the summer of 1995. It was a move for which he was castigated, even by his own fans.
All were senior pros, top-level players who all left in indignation, although they were professional enough to limit their frustrations to raised eyebrows or private conversations.
David Moyes faces similar issues. He has to deal with even better players who are on the way out.
Like Rio Ferdinand, whose status was so high last summer that he was one of three or four players Moyes chose to visit in person before taking the freshly wallpapered office -- Ferguson insisted that evidence of his time was cleared away -- at Carrington, United’s training ground.
The end is unlikely to be pretty for Ferdinand at Old Trafford and he may be unhappy with individuals, if not the entire club. But when the dust has settled, he'll be remembered as probably the greatest defender in United's history. He has been that good.
Nemanja Vidic is another player with whom Moyes' sought a meeting; upon taking over as manager, he flew to Serbia to meet the club captain. The relationship between the two could have been better since.
Vidic isn't happy and has known he's been leaving for a while. That news was made public at the curious hour of midnight last Thursday.
Fans did not urge him to stay. They can largely see that this moment has been coming, that he is not quite the colossus strong enough to repel an invading army back over the River Drina by himself.
However, Vidic is a club legend and that's why his song was sung in Sunday's 2-2 draw vs. Fulham, the 13th league game in which the champions have fallen behind this season. Eight of those have ended in defeat.
There are two sides of the story, but Vidic hasn't been the Vidic that people know around the club. People are often not themselves when they're not happy, though he's still smashing people in tackles in training.
Vidic will not remember his final season at Old Trafford as the happiest in his life. Having said that, no United players will remember this one with much enthusiasm.
He'll leave and will hopefully get the contract he is after and -- though he'll say different publicly-- he too will privately fume at how it all ended.
Like Ferdinand, he'll be remembered as one of the very best defenders: some would even say he's the best. He has been that good. As the two grow older, they'll remember the good times more than the bad.
Patrice Evra will be the same. United's failure to find an able deputy means that he has put himself through more games than should be realistically be expected of any professional player. He's another hero of Moscow, a player who reached the top of his trade and has a European Cup winners' medal to show for it.
Ryan Giggs is another, though the internet doesn't have enough space to list all his achievements. Taking into account his talent and trophies, his longevity and loyalty, he is the greatest player in Manchester United's history.
Six years on, Moscow seems even further in the past right now, but several players from that team are still around. Not for long, though, not for most.
Moyes is charged with making the changes and in doing so is coming up against some big names and egos. How they react varies. When the word “mutual” is used, it's like the man who claims that splitting with his girlfriend was mutual. It wasn't, he was dumped.
The players know they are under contract and have to respect that. So they usually put on their big headphones and escape into their own little world as they contemplate their future while not being outride rude to work colleagues.
Players, who were used to Ferguson and don't like the way it is, largely don’t like the way it is because they have had bad news or it is coming their way.
No player likes to be dropped and they'll find issue with the peripherals, like the manner in which it happens. It's damaging to an ego to be told after years, "you're not needed tomorrow" in front of every player.
To Moyes, he’s being decisive like his predecessor. He's taking a risk and winners take risks. He's given everyone a chance and is now about to make substantial changes.
It's probable that 8-10 players who were with him at the start of this season won't be with him at the start of next. Furthermore, 6-8 players who were not, will be.
Moyes will get money to spend and it's going to be a busy summer for United. Given the performances this season, it needs to be, though it remains baffling why the form of talented players has dropped so much.
So Moyes is left with a state in flux, where the senior players from whom others (and him) could have taken a lead, are on their way out or disaffected.
Moyes has a captain who is going but will remain captain and he's got other players whom he doesn't consider to be a positive influence around the training ground every single day. Working conditions could be much, much better.
It's not just the senior players either. There have been run-ins with others who are not happy with the manager. Either they'll grow to respect him or they won't need to as they will not be at United. They'll have their say when they see fit.
Through all this, Moyes has to smile publicly, often with gritted teeth and while pretending that things are far better than they actually are and that there are no issues with players when there are or have been.
Among many other jobs, he is learning to be a public relations man of an institution. It's not easy, but he has so far enjoyed support from the majority of match-going fans.
With the dire results -- three wins and five defeats from nine games so far this year (one of the wins saw elimination from the Capital one Cup) -- the mood is changing among those fans; the staunch support is starting to slip.
United now have four consecutive away games, starting with Arsenal on Wednesday, as well as Liverpool and Manchester City at home before March is over.
The circumstances don't suggest that United will get anything from those games but fans need something to give them hope.
Was Fulham the darkest hour before dawn or is there worse to come?
Think I lost a minute of my life reading that.
8-10 leaving? fecking hell. Even if its close to that number.
rio, evra, vidic, ando gone. giggs to retire Who else?
It'l be a travesty if some of the best talent leave the club.
EDIT: How reliable is Andy Mitten btw? Close to United?
rio, evra, vidic, ando gone. giggs to retire Who else?
It'l be a travesty if some of the best talent leave the club.
EDIT: How reliable is Andy Mitten btw? Close to United?
Agree with that.
Rio, Evra, Vidic, Hernandez, Anderson, Zaha or Kagawa, Cleverley, and one of Young, Valencia, or Nani will go
Rio, Evra, Vidic, Hernandez, Anderson, Zaha or Kagawa, Cleverley, and one of Young, Valencia, or Nani will go
As reliable as it gets from a journalist.8-10 leaving? fecking hell. Even if its close to that number.
rio, evra, vidic, ando gone. giggs to retire Who else?
It'l be a travesty if some of the best talent leave the club.
EDIT: How reliable is Andy Mitten btw? Close to United?
All this worry over being like Chelsea or City (both of whom sacked managers for finishing 2nd, not 8th) ignores the very real threat that leaving the wrong man in the job too long runs the risk of being like Liverpool.
If we don't sack him he can't be our Hodgson. The worry now is he'll become our Souness.
Ah yes. forgot these 2. Dont think we'l see Zaha though, same with Clev. If Moyes sells Nani before Young and Valencia
Well, lets hope its the ones we've pretty much accepted are leaving and no shockers like a RVP or Rafael.
I so so want Kagawa to stay.
He'd be class under a proper manager.
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