Nicola Sturgeon and Scottish Independence

altodevil said:
It's now clear why he battled SNP/Sturge, for his own party benefit. Egotist. If he wanted independence he wouldn't do this.
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By only putting forward candidates for the list he is breaking PR and could pick up many additional MPs.

Not from the SNP but other parties
 
rcoobc said:
By only putting forward candidates for the list he is breaking PR and could pick up many additional MPs.

Not from the SNP but other parties
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Yep, he's a dickhead. I want independence, but not at the expense of breaking the electoral system.
 
altodevil said:
Yep, he's a dickhead. I want independence, but not at the expense of breaking the electoral system.
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If a system can be broken so easily, doesn’t the system need to change?

from the brief segment to news I watched yesterday, he looks like a boxer 20 years past his prime. A complete joke.

You would have to question anyone who wanted to represent this ‘party’.

It will fall on its arse.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
If a system can be broken so easily, doesn’t the system need to change?

from the brief segment to news I watched yesterday, he looks like a boxer 20 years past his prime. A complete joke.

You would have to question anyone who wanted to represent this ‘party’.

It will fall on its arse.
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Probably at this stage. I'd prefer straight PR but can't blame the current system. It is way way more proportional and fair than Westminster
 
Scottish government loses independence vote ruling

The Scottish government cannot hold an independence referendum without UK government’s consent, Supreme Court rules.
 
SilentWitness said:
Scottish government loses independence vote ruling

The Scottish government cannot hold an independence referendum without UK government’s consent, Supreme Court rules.
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Well thank feck for that. Maybe she can focus on not doing a shit job now? What am I saying...madness. Bunch of halfwits.
 
I'm sure the Scottish who want to be less dependent on London decisions will be satisfied to hear they can't do it without London's approval.
 
You'll leave when they say you can leave.

Time for a soft coup.
 
Camilo said:
Well thank feck for that. Maybe she can focus on not doing a shit job now? What am I saying...madness. Bunch of halfwits.
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Alternatively, I’m not sure rejecting the request from an elected government to hold something that was pledged in their manifesto is a great look.
 
Baxter said:
Alternatively, I’m not sure rejecting the request from an elected government to hold something that was pledged in their manifesto is a great look.
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If there wasn't the legal case for it, maybe it shouldn't have been pledged in such a definitive matter?

I'm sure there will be further calls for independence, but the SNP's ability to bring this forward has taken a beating today.
 
groovyalbert said:
If there wasn't the legal case for it, maybe it shouldn't have been pledged in such a definitive matter?

I'm sure there will be further calls for independence, but the SNP's ability to bring this forward has taken a beating today.
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That’s true. However, if the Westminster Government flat out refuses any way forward for it to happen then that would be pretty galling for the electorate north of the border. Effectively, know your place and shut up.
 
This might have bought me a few more years to move up to Scotland before they have the referendum, get independence, lock the doors and rejoin the EU. But it's a shit decision.
 
The result was obvious. I bet even the Scottish government didn't think the court would side with them. But it kept independence on the radar, so job done for Nicola, at the expense of the taxpayers.
 
hobbers said:
The de facto referendum via a general is a pretty bleak prospect for them. They got 45% last election but that was based on a protest vote against Boris and Corbyn, two very unpopular leaders in Scotland.
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Sunak and Starmer are also no more popular.
 
Baxter said:
Sunak and Starmer are also no more popular.
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Of course they are more popular, and crucially, far more electable.

Corbyn got fewer votes than someone doing a Brexit no one wanted and attacking her own base by asking the elderly to pay for their care by selling (or at least selling part of) their own homes. Sensible policy decisions, but basically the worst campaign platforms.

As I said at the time, it was like celebrating a narrow footballing loss against a side that only put out 6 men.
 
hobbers said:
The de facto referendum via a general is a pretty bleak prospect for them. They got 45% last election but that was based on a protest vote against Boris and Corbyn, two very unpopular leaders in Scotland.
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Corbyn isnt unpopular in Scotland
 
lefty_jakobz said:
Corbyn isnt unpopular in Scotland
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yeah but nah
UK Labour leader Keir Starmer is suffering in Scotland too. Just 19% of people approved of his performance in the role, compared to 38% of those who disapproved.


The three least popular politicians were Boris Johnson, on a -38 approval rating, former Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn on -43, and Alba leader Alex Salmond on -57.
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https://www.thenational.scot/news/19591892.least-popular-politicians-scotland-revealed-new-poll/
 
If this happened in a non-white country you know there'd be uproar from the same politicians who refuse this request.

I'd argue it might be too soon for another referendum but we can't keep denying they have the right to independence.
 
sun_tzu said:
yeah but nah


https://www.thenational.scot/news/19591892.least-popular-politicians-scotland-revealed-new-poll/
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hobbers said:
Yes he is. He effectively pushed a swathe of long term Scottish Labour voters to the SNP.

Initially he had a bit of a bounce in Scotland when Corbynism was a few months old but it didnt last long.
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goalscholes said:
Didn't Labour give their worst performance for over 100 years at the last election?
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The Labour party are unpopular up here due to Blair and the illegal war. Most people I know would love nothing more than a Corbyn led party running the government. Only ones who dislike him are the Tory supporters and they aren't even relevant any more in Scotland a bit like Labour.
 
lefty_jakobz said:
The Labour party are unpopular up here due to Blair and the illegal war. Most people I know would love nothing more than a Corbyn led party running the government. Only ones who dislike him are the Tory supporters and they aren't even relevant any more in Scotland a bit like Labour.
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yeah but nah
last election before blair Labour got 39%
Blairs first election they got 45.6%
The election after the Iraq invasion they got 43.92% (post Iraq)
Blairs last election 39.52% (post iraq)
Brown got 42% (post Iraq)

Corbyn got 18.6%

so yeah perhaps most people you know would love nothing more than Corbyn but that probably says more about your echo chamber than the reality
 
sun_tzu said:
yeah but nah
last election before blair Labour got 39%
Blairs first election they got 45.6%
The election after the Iraq invasion they got 43.92% (post Iraq)
Blairs last election 39.52% (post iraq)
Brown got 42% (post Iraq)

Corbyn got 18.6%

so yeah perhaps most people you know would love nothing more than Corbyn but that probably says more about your echo chamber than the reality
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What area in Scotland do you stay?
 
lefty_jakobz said:
What area in Scotland do you stay?
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Why does the % of total Scottish votes by party change depending where you look them up from... thats some crazy quantum stuff going on there


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_United_Kingdom_general_election_in_Scotland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_United_Kingdom_general_election_in_Scotland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_United_Kingdom_general_election_in_Scotland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_United_Kingdom_general_election_in_Scotland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_United_Kingdom_general_election_in_Scotland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_United_Kingdom_general_election_in_Scotland

Because this is what they say for me...

last election before blair Labour got 39%
Blairs first election they got 45.6%
The election after the Iraq invasion they got 43.92% (post Iraq)
Blairs last election 39.52% (post iraq)
Brown got 42% (post Iraq)

Corbyn got 18.6%
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Are they incorrect?
 
 
sun_tzu said:
yeah but nah
last election before blair Labour got 39%
Blairs first election they got 45.6%
The election after the Iraq invasion they got 43.92% (post Iraq)
Blairs last election 39.52% (post iraq)
Brown got 42% (post Iraq)

Corbyn got 18.6%

so yeah perhaps most people you know would love nothing more than Corbyn but that probably says more about your echo chamber than the reality
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The death of Labour in Scotland long predates Corbyn and is causally related to the Labour party's drift to the right and implementation and advocation of policies that are deeply unpopular in Scotland creating a political vacuum filled by the SNP. This was further exacerbated with Labour's alliance with the Tories on Indy ref, the general awfulness of Scottish Labour and the Brexit disaster.

Labour are on life support in Scotland and no leader is resurrecting them anytime soon.
 
Baxter said:
Alternatively, I’m not sure rejecting the request from an elected government to hold something that was pledged in their manifesto is a great look.
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You can't have "start a new country" votes every handful of years. It's fecking stupid. The country is, at best, completely divided on independence. It would be completely irresponsible to have a vote. Far worse than Brexit.

Just because the SNP are thick and promise things they can't deliver doesn't make denying them a vote wrong.
 
Camilo said:
You can't have "start a new country" votes every handful of years. It's fecking stupid. The country is, at best, completely divided on independence. It would be completely irresponsible to have a vote. Far worse than Brexit.

Just because the SNP are thick and promise things they can't deliver doesn't make denying them a vote wrong.
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However you lean on independence (you seem on the fence to me) you should be troubled by this ruling.
 
hobbers said:
Labours slow death in Scotland predates Corbyn but its still true that lots of voters who would usually vote Labour swapped to SNP in 2019 as a protest against Corbyn, not because of a sudden longing for independence.
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Most of the people who'd back Corbyn would have been pretty unlikely to be voting Labour by 2019 irrespective.
 
Camilo said:
You can't have "start a new country" votes every handful of years. It's fecking stupid. The country is, at best, completely divided on independence. It would be completely irresponsible to have a vote. Far worse than Brexit.

Just because the SNP are thick and promise things they can't deliver doesn't make denying them a vote wrong.
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Irrespective of opinions on independence or referendums in general, the implications of this ruling are of concern. As far as I can read it, the principle appears to be that the power to hold a referendum lies with devolved governments but the capacity to practically enact any outcome does not, therefore the referendum cannot occur as that is the decision of the collective Union's government of which Scotland is a voluntary part. It's catch-22.
 
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