Why did we sign Schneiderlin again? It seems he has no strong position anymore. Where was he best for the Saints?
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I used to think he was best at DM for the Saints, but I never watched a lot of them, and I thought that's why we signed him.
But since then, and watching some more footage of Schneiderlin at Soton and reading more on the Caf, I think he was best deployed next to a DM (Wanyama), as a box to box mid almost.
Indeed, Schneiderlin was at his best with Wanyama next to him.
Aye, I always thought he was a DM, destroyer
I was also happy when we signed him because I thought that (DM - a Carrick replacement) was what we needed the most.Shows you how little I know.
Pogba's unimpressive performances are due to several factors: (1) new league, team, tactics, etc. (2) he doesn't play in a system that suits his best qualities, (3) too big expectations, (4) related to (3), he's probably a bit overhyped, (5) maybe he is not in good form yet. I haven't watched enough of him at Juve but he was a bit average at the Euros (probably because of some factors mentioned above).
I don't think we have ever truly had a destroyerAye, I always thought he was a DM, destroyer
Shows you how little I know.
Yeah, it wasn't ever really SAF's style of player.
Carragher destroyed him on MNF but unfortunately he was right. Imagine leaving Fellaini on his own in the middle of the park in the first 15 minutes. Jose either needs to go to 3 in the middle or sort that shit out completely.
Agree. His analysis is usually spot on.
He hasn't really played badly at all yet though TBH. Southampton he was the best player, Hull he did his job fine although nothing spectacular. Obviously the City game was strange but that was more of a tactical problem. Jose told him to get forward as quick as possible to join the forwards and receive the long balls. You can't blame him or failed tactics. Once we changed the game plan he was much better in the 2nd half, but most of the game we were camped in their box, hard to playmake well when you are expected to win headers and flick ons.
We will see the real Pogba against Watford I feel.
The only problem I have with Carragher is he is only commenting on stuff at face value.
Yes he points out Pogba was running forward early and leaving midfield when we won the ball - but why? it wasn't just because he's not disciplined, it was a clear tactical instruction from Jose.
In my post on the previous page I mentioned how Jose kept talking about "no first station passes". He clearly wanted the ball to be knocked long to Ibra, with Rooney and Pogba winning the knock downs. Lingard and Mhki looks like were told to tuck in so they could win the 2nd balls if they came back, but that never really worked properly. On paper the tactic was designed to ignore their midfield press and put the CB's under pressure, but it never really came to fruition. We were too impatient in defence and just got rid of the ball too quickly.
Obviously though in those little video's Carragher makes it look all Pogba's fault, but that's only at face value. Once you realise it's a tactic instruction it's just 1 of those things. Easy to pick apart a game plan with little segments and lambast 1 person.
At the end of the day Jose got this one wrong, he realised and put Herrera in at CDM to clean up, which helped much better. Hopefully we will not be trying that again.
That makes a lot of sense, IMO.
If Pogba was running forward capriciously, Mourinho would have told him something after 5 minutes of the match. If Pogba insisted with those movements there's a clear instruction or at least some freedom allowed by the manager. We can discuss the productivity of these runs but talking about "undiscipline" is probably unfair.
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Needs to be playing in a 4-3-3 as the furthest forward midfielder.
This deep lying pivot crap with Fellaini isn't suited to his game, that, and he was having to do twice the work against City because they were completely overloading us in the midfield. He had pretty much zero space to work with, which is why he had to beat 2-3 players each time he got the ball to even to do something going forward.
This deep lying pivot crap with Fellaini isn't suited to his game, that, and he was having to do twice the work against City because they were completely overloading us in the midfield. He had pretty much zero space to work with, which is why he had to beat 2-3 players each time he got the ball to even to do something going forward.
Valencia is a natural right winger, yet was arguably our best player v City, at right back. He's no where near the player Pogba is. So the argument that it's not at all Pogba's fault falls flat.
But back on subject as you're picking holes rather than addressing my full post.
Has Pogba played and performed in a 2 man midfield prior? I have witnessed some very good performances by him in a midfield 2, so yes he is able, but didn't play well against City and should be held to account for his performance. So over the complete free passes certain players get, whilst others have to carry the can for every single point dropped.
No it doesn't would Zidane or Iniesta shine in a midfield 2 where there are the deepest players? probably not. Valencia is 32 and has been playing RB for years so its a different story. P.S. i don't think Valencia was that good. Pogba needs to improve his positional discipline. My argument is why spend record fees on a player and not play to his full assets. Last season he got 12 assists. He won't get that here. We need him to be our Lampard or we may as well have just signed Matic.
EDIT: Tbh Paul needs to fix up as he is supposed to be a world class midfielder and he got bossed by little old De Bruyne and Silva
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His quality is going forward and playing in a midfield 3. Rooney is done, get over it.
There is sense to what you say but his positional sense in the opening of the game was undisciplined and thats putting it mildly.
Great post. Neville spouts crap but I agreed with him when he said Pogba must have had instructions to play like that. Carragher just ignored it but I suppose a narrative of a £100m undisciplined midfielder suits better. If it wasn't instructed by Jose we would have seen him go barking mad at the touchline.
He also said he'd never seen a midfielder in a 2 occupy those positions or play like that. I recall last season under LVG, Fellaini played like that quite often leaving Carrick alone to cover him. As you've explained, the rationale for playing Pogba that way makes sense it just didn't work.
Shit happens. On another day with our players pulling their finger out we could use the exact same tactics and win the game.
Nah, not in the first half. You could play that way 10 times against a Guardiola side and you'd lose every time, the midfield was literally empty from us.
The 2nd half 433, yes. In fact, I think if we'd started like that we'd have won the game.
For as bad as the domination was in the first half city hardly had any chances other than the goals. Jose was happy for City to have the ball but he wanted our attacks to be quick and decisive. Tactics have nothing to do with how bad Mkhi and Lingard were in that first half. They were so vital to our plan going forward that their poor performances restricted us from doing anything in an attacking sense. The worst thing is the spaces in City's defence were there but individuals were so poor that we couldn't capitalise on these openings.
BTW losing a midfield battle doesn't mean losing a game. Jose has won many games while losing the mf battle just as Wenger and LVG have lost many controlling the midfield.
Oh I couldn't give a feck about 'winning a midfield battle' with Guardiola, what's the point? That type of football bores me anyway, if I'm totally honest.
But there's conceding possession and playing on the break, and then there's playing with Fellaini on his own against 3 top class midfielders, having no shape or purpose and allowing huge gaps for them to run into.
Foxes last year with Kante and Drinkwater in the middle is a good example of a midfield 2 that could engine a counter attack team successfully over a season.
Fellaini and Pogba is a laughable suggestion to attempt such a tactic. There's no way Mourinho could be that naive...
Haha fair enough about Rooney.
I don't think Schneiderlin is the man to sit in behind his passing/positioning is not his strength. At southampton Wanyama did that job and allowed Morgan to press and be a ball winner high up the pitch. I don't understand why people think he is a defensive midfielder a la Carrick. His strength always to me appeared to be his ability and energy to get right in opponents face high up the pitch and gain back possession and because he won a lot of ball back people seem to think he is defensive midfielder. I honestly don't see Jose wanting us to play that way to his strengths.
Playing him in a holding role and expecting Carrick like results I think will expose his weaknesses which is what LVG did with him and why so many felt he underperformed last season IMO.
Barcalona lost the other day without starting Messi, Neymar and Iniesta. For a team so dominant in a two horse league they should have battered Alaves even without those three.
Except they didn't. Everyone and team needs a platform. Even with the talented players around him in Argentina, Messi still can't go full Barca-mode and yet we should expect Pogba to single handedly raise his game above the whole level of City and carry that Utd midfield/attack?
Not a chance until he's given a platform to perform. He still deserves criticism but it's a fundamental issue here; the issue being 4-2-3-1 doesn't suit our squad and tactics.
This, however I thought Fellaini played well again so all things considered Pogba just didn't play as well as he should've.
We should play 4-3-3 without a doubt. It suits a lot of our main players so much better, not just Pogba.
Pogba has enough of a platform to play well. It's not like he was playing passes that others didn't have the quality to utilize. He was roaming around carelessly and left Fellaini alone. He had a poor game but it happens. Let's just move on and hope it doesn't happen again soon rather than blame it all on Rooney.
Very reasonable post.
Exactly. This is sort of same point I made in other forum. What Jose said post match means it was obvious, players were told to bypass the midfield and play it long like Pep did against Dortmund and used Javi Martinez in the attacking position.
His post match comments:
IMO it's very obvious Pogba was playing as instructed.
Yep, if you read and watch it correctly it's clear to see it was tactical, but of course Carragher probably got showed a bit of footage and was told to narrate over it. Make our new fancy big signing look awful and get some big name headlines. Well done Sky
It's a shame they don't delve into WHY Pogba was running forward so often to the forward line, what we were trying to achieve. That would have made much better analysis.
Was listening to a podcast recently where it was suggested the role Pogba is most suited to is something like Lampard used to play for Chelsea under Mourinho and I totally agree. We need a dedicated CDM behind Pogba and whoever else is going to play in CM.
In a 4-3-3, he is brilliant on the left hand side He can come centrally or, if congested, go to the left side. Jose has some decisions to take in the next few months
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He's seen even less of the ball at no.10.
Has been anonymous so far. A few good touches, but a tendency to overplay at times.
I keep saying this, but he needs to play deeper. He's in amongst all the congestion and can't find space.
He should start from deeper. He's iur best midfielder and he's on the ball the least. He shouldn't be at no.10.
He should start from deeper. He's iur best midfielder and he's on the ball the least. He shouldn't be at no.10.
Underwhelming yet again. He shows good technique at times, but he uses too much time on the ball.
So you're telling me we spent £100m on a dab merchant?
I hope we put him on for the 2nd half.
Feeling a bit smug now 
I said many fans would be underwhelmed at the start
I said many fans would be underwhelmed at the start
He's playing in his best position (which isn't at #10 either). Sadly, he's pissing about with the ball too much.
Hasn't been bad, but hasn't been good either. Just ok.
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