So basically what I said from my very first post ?
Then that's what Rooney said :
And what he said, according to your definition as well, is rubbish when talking about box to box player.
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Then that's what Rooney said :
I guess, as Mourinho said, people have different opinions of a box to box player.
To me, a box to box player is exactly what it says, and how Mourinho described it as. When we go forward, they should be in the opposing teams box, when we defend, be in our box. Simple as that!
However, if Mourinho is playing a 4231, and wants to play a 4231 properly, then we shouldn't need box to box players. What we need is two defensive midfielders, who are going to sit in front of the back four, break up play and play it simple.
That's what he was so impressed with McTominay for against Huddersfield.
"He's a kid that chases the ball, that tries to recover high up the pitch and when he has the ball it is always simple and against opponents like Huddersfield, so close and with so many bodies behind the ball, the simplicity sometimes is genius.
"You don't have space, you have to open spaces by playing simple, so was a decision to play the kid."
Now, neither McTominay nor Matic were 'box to box' last week against Huddersfield. They sat and distributed it simply, whilst the front four and full backs attacked. Like I said, that's the role of a double 6 pivot in a 4231, hence why it's a 4231 and not a 4411, because the front four are separated from the midfield two.
Going back to Pogba, the reason people will always see Pogba as neglecting his defensive duties is because he's obviously being asked by Mourinho to get forward when we attack and get back when we defend, but he shouldn't be.
If like McTominay and Matic he sits in front of the back four and distributes, then he won't get caught out of position. It's really that simple.
If he stays deep and uses his fantastic passing range, as we saw last week, when he picked out Mata that lead to the pen, then he can become a success, and will give us more structure. As I said before, I believe he can play a similar to the role Pirlo played at Juventus.
Matic (ball winner) Pogba (deeplying playmaker)
To me, a box to box player is exactly what it says, and how Mourinho described it as. When we go forward, they should be in the opposing teams box, when we defend, be in our box. Simple as that!
However, if Mourinho is playing a 4231, and wants to play a 4231 properly, then we shouldn't need box to box players. What we need is two defensive midfielders, who are going to sit in front of the back four, break up play and play it simple.
That's what he was so impressed with McTominay for against Huddersfield.
"He's a kid that chases the ball, that tries to recover high up the pitch and when he has the ball it is always simple and against opponents like Huddersfield, so close and with so many bodies behind the ball, the simplicity sometimes is genius.
"You don't have space, you have to open spaces by playing simple, so was a decision to play the kid."
Now, neither McTominay nor Matic were 'box to box' last week against Huddersfield. They sat and distributed it simply, whilst the front four and full backs attacked. Like I said, that's the role of a double 6 pivot in a 4231, hence why it's a 4231 and not a 4411, because the front four are separated from the midfield two.
Going back to Pogba, the reason people will always see Pogba as neglecting his defensive duties is because he's obviously being asked by Mourinho to get forward when we attack and get back when we defend, but he shouldn't be.
If like McTominay and Matic he sits in front of the back four and distributes, then he won't get caught out of position. It's really that simple.
If he stays deep and uses his fantastic passing range, as we saw last week, when he picked out Mata that lead to the pen, then he can become a success, and will give us more structure. As I said before, I believe he can play a similar to the role Pirlo played at Juventus.
Matic (ball winner) Pogba (deeplying playmaker)
You also thought Rooney wanted to call him an attacking midfielder in your first post.Anyway you're putting too much emphasise on a relaxed, conversational use of "too much".
The rest of his comments that I quoted should have cleared that up, but carry on... He's only a veteran of the game.
He said that he shouldn't be thinking much about defensive side and has freedom. That completely contradicts your definition of a box to box player. You said he should be going forward with some defensive responsibilities, Rooney said he shouldn't be thinking much about defensive role and go on freedom. How exactly are you thinking both are similar ? This is beyond me.
Anyway you're putting too much emphasise on a relaxed, conversational use of "too much".
The rest of his comments that quoted should have cleared that up, but carry on... He's only a veteran of the game.
Let's not act like Rooney is the most experienced pundit with the perfect choice of words anyway. That was his first time as pundit I believe and it's not a guarantee that a top player should be ticking all the boxes correct when going on punditry. What he said clearly describes Pogba as attacking player with freedom and not thinking much about defending. If that doesn't mean an attacking player, Ok.
Again you are taking the relaxed use of his wording too literally.
He was taking about 'freedom' and less defensive responsibility he'd have playing box to box vs playing the #6 role he currently plays. If you saw the video and English was your first language (sorry if I've presumed wrong here) you would understand exactly what he was talking about.
I somewhat disagree. I think Pogba has trouble with focusing on keeping it simple and staying focused when on defensive duties. He gets caught out whether he’s had to track back or not. Until he improves that part of his game, he won’t be the finished product. If he wants to be the star that he has the potential to be, he needs to be able to develop into that player. Otherwise, he would just be one of those talented players who needs really good players and coaches to cover for his weaknesses. When you have to do that, you take away from the team being able to be effective in all positions. That may work in a weaker league or playing against weaker teams but to be challenging at the top, every player needs to carry the team forward instead of needing someone to carry part of their burden.
I have been judging based on the quotes I have read so far, but I'll try to watch the video if what you're saying is correct or not.
And no, English isn't my first language.
Good post.
Only observation is that in a 4-2-3-1, the two players occupying the '2', do not need to sit deep throughout the game. Like you indicated, one can focus on ball winning while the other acts as a deep lying playmaker.
I’m sure Rooney doesn’t need defending by random Red Cafe chap but it seems clear (at least the way I read it) that Rooney was talking about 2 things. Pogba is a box to box player and can do everything in the role i.e. defend and attack really well but IF he was freed up not to have to worry about defence i.e. given a free role i.e. NOT b2b, then he could do a lot of damage.
I don’t know why that opinion has created so much upset against old Wayne in the thread tbh. I thought most people on the Cafe thought Pogba was better without b2b responsibilities too!?
Caveat: I’m only trying to interpret what has been reported on here rather than the actual footage....
Why do people think 4-2-3-1 means playing only two people in the midfield? It doesn't. In fact, one of the core ideas of the 4-2-3-1 is to ensure a team is not outnumbered in the midfield.
The 3 in front of that 2 are nearly always more productive in their attacking strengths than being (controlling/tempo/possession etc) midfielders.
Pogba should be one of those 3 rather than one of the two in any case.
This is distinctly not the case; and a cursory glance at the managers history will tell you so.
Hazard was not fit to be a no.10 because he did not have the right midfield qualities and Oscar was favoured. The ideal no.10 in this system as applied by the manager is Deco/Sneijder. Both are genuine midfielders. Ozil (a playmaker) was utilized in the no.10 spot.
Lingard plays in the no.10 spot because of his passing, circulation of the ball, pressing. All important midfield qualities.
The 4-2-3-1 utilizes a third midfielder in the no.10 spot, but this midfielder must also be able to support the striker during counter attacks.
Newcastle 1:0 Man Utd
Hope he doesn't aggravate whatever he's playing through here by staying on. Definitely doesn't look like he's moving freely.
Hopefully it’s a bit of a dead leg type of injury rather than a strain.
It's incredible how lazy he is defensively in every game and no one seems to care about that. I can't believe Mourinho keeps insisting playing him in a pair next to Matic.
Looks injured to be fair. Get him off
Hopefully yeah, looked like he did it kicking a ball though so not sure.
He looks totally off the pace..
He’s injured. Needs to come off before he does more damage.
He's either slowly jogging in to position, standing around once he gets there - or worse yet nowhere to be seen.
It's really beginning to grate on me tbh. He may have a little knock, but then just take him off the pitch. It's like playing with 10 men often.
Getting done by Shelvey and Diame 
That's among the worst type of muscular injury to try play through. He could be looking at 3-4 weeks out if it's a bad dead leg.
I really don't know what to expect from him from match to match. Not a great trait for someone in the middle of the park.
He's been a joke for a while now. I'd have him benched. His effort is embarrassing at times. He'll stand there watching them attack into our box while he stands 15 yards up the pitch doing nothing. If he doesn't want to bother then he shouldn't play. I don't care how good he can be when he isn't bothered to put in the effort to be that good.
If it turns out that he's injured hen it's a dereliction of duty by Mourinho
Awful half from him.
He doesn't seem even 50% fit and yet he's easily our 3rd best player today.
I honestly don't think he's injured. There is no difference between this performance and the one against Spurs. He's just lazy af.
You fools still can't see how out of place he looks in centre of midfield? We are very lucky that this is just Newcastle. He definitely isn't good enough to play there against a Champions league contender or a top 4 side.
His best moments are generally flair or attacking moments, you rarely see his best moments being anything defensive.
His best moments are generally flair or attacking moments, you rarely see his best moments being anything defensive.
I hope he's picked up a knock and that's why he had that first half.
I wouldn't be happy if he's not hurt and there was no excuse for how shite that first 45 minutes was from him.
I wouldn't be happy if he's not hurt and there was no excuse for how shite that first 45 minutes was from him.
He's drunk. Only explanation for this kind of poor performance.
Just awful, his lack of mobility puts Matic under serious pressure.
Every time I see City, I watch De Bruyne and think "that's what Pogba should be doing for United". Generally he doesn't even come close.
If he's injured he should come off. If he isn't he should still come off. Sick and tired of how lazy and half arsed he looks.
He would need a 4 man midfield the way he is playing today.
Somethings not right with him. He's like barely moving properly. Very strange.
Why do we keep playing him as a 6?? He should be more offensive.. He looks miserable...
Being outshone by Jonjo fecking Shelvey (who, for the record, is playing the exact same position/formation).
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I have defended him a lot, but the performance from him so far has been lacklustre. Seems so disinterested...
Still think he looks injured, doesn't seem to be moving as normal at all.
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