[backtowhiteside]

I think its safe to say Pogba is not very happy about the instructions given to him by Jose. There have been matches were Pogba has been dominating midfield but there has been far more matches without the dominance. He's even been sulking in games since Alexis came to the team. I don't think he is the type of player you can trust and build a team around. To many ups and downs. We need a feckin captain in this team.

 

[breakout67]

I'm a supporter of playing Pogba as an auxiliary midfielder in a 4-4-2 setup. He played like that for Juventus in 15/16 and that was his breakout season.

Our comebacks against Chelsea and City involved a narrow 4-4-2 (or 4-2-2-2).

I thought he was very good in the first half of the season, but there is obviously a problem with that setup for him. Either he can't physically cope with that workload (which could explain his injuries and lack of work ethic in in the 2nd half of the season) or he struggles too much with the defensive aspect of the game.

 

[JK-27]

All those saying keep Pogba and get rid of Jose have short term memories. In the SAF glory days we still sold world class talent (Stam, Beckham, RvN, Ronaldo). I don't remember anyone calling for SAF to be sacked then. Hell, Veron was a world class talent who was shite at Utd, I don't remember anyone saying it was SAF's fault Veron wasn't playing well.

So why all of a sudden do we back Pogba over the manager?

 

[breakout67]

All those saying keep Pogba and get rid of Jose have short term memories. In the SAF glory days we still sold world class talent (Stam, Beckham, RvN, Ronaldo). I don't remember anyone calling for SAF to be sacked then. Hell, Veron was a world class talent who was shite at Utd, I don't remember anyone saying it was SAF's fault Veron wasn't playing well.

So why all of a sudden do we back Pogba over the manager?

Pogba leaving is something I don't even consider. Top 4 is basically secure so he could easily drop him for McTominay or Herrera like he did earlier in the season. But we've been trying more midfielders just to accommodate Pogba. The selection doesn't indicate he's leaving.

Martial is a much more likely candidate for leaving, since he is playing less and less. We also bought in a player in the same position as him.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Here are some stats to substantiate my post further up the page. Pogba compared to some other top CMs.

He looks good in terms of goals/assists but makes less passes, completes a lower % of passes, makes fewer key passes and is generally less likely to win the ball back after losing it. Like I said, he's a luxury player. These were all patterns established at Juventus before we signed him although - interestingly - since joining United his offensive stats have improved slightly, while his defensive stats have got worse. Which is what you'd expect from someone who is buying into his own hype and also goes against the idea that Mourinho is an uber-defensive coach who has throttled Pogba's creativity.

 

[Bestietom]

If he stopped showboating and put his mind down to playing football he could be the best in Europe.

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

Here are some stats to substantiate my post further up the page. Pogba compared to some other top CMs.

He looks good in terms of goals/assists but makes less passes, completes a lower % of passes, makes fewer key passes and is generally less likely to win the ball back after losing it. Like I said, he's a luxury player. These were all patterns established at Juventus before we signed him although - interestingly - since joining United his offensive stats have improved slightly, while his defensive stats have got worse. Which is what you'd expect from someone who is buying into his own hype and also goes against the idea that Mourinho is an uber-defensive coach who has throttled Pogba's creativity.

Do you also think that the rise of social media platforms have contributed to Pogba's decline? Instagram for example wasn't anywhere near as popular when Pogba was at Juventus, and now he has the United platform aswell making his social media presence higher than ever. Maybe i'm just looking into things too much. But Pogba showing off and travelling round the World between games on Instagram surely is a big distraction to his improvement as a player? Cristiano Ronaldo for example uses social media just enough to peak interest, but not enough to distract him. I can't imagine he was allowed by Fergie to be travelling to different countries midweek in between games either.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Do you also think that the rise of social media platforms have contributed to Pogba's decline? Instagram for example wasn't anywhere near as popular when Pogba was at Juventus, and now he has the United platform aswell making his social media presence higher than ever. Maybe i'm just looking into things too much. But Pogba showing off and travelling round the World between games on Instagram surely is a big distraction to his improvement as a player? Cristiano Ronaldo for example uses social media just enough to peak interest, but not enough to distract him. I can't imagine he was allowed by Fergie to be travelling to different countries midweek in between games either.

Has Pogba been doing that?

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

Has Pogba been doing that?

Yeah has has done. Don't have any examples to hand as Instagram stories disappear after 24 hours but I have seen it a couple of times this season. You see it with all of our players on Instagram. For example it seems Herrera is often back in Spain in between games, Lukaku has been to America a few times (even signing with Jay-Z after the Sevilla game) and Lindelof has been out and about to. Just not sure how you can be totally focused on improving when that is happening. The likes of Ronaldo used to travel to America only at the seasons end.

 

[roonster09]

Yeah has has done. Don't have any examples to hand as Instagram stories disappear after 24 hours but I have seen it a couple of times this season. You see it with all of our players on Instagram. For example it seems Herrera is often back in Spain in between games, Lukaku has been to America a few times (even signing with Jay-Z after the Sevilla game) and Lindelof has been out and about to. Just not sure how you can be totally focused on improving when that is happening. The likes of Ronaldo used to travel to America only at the seasons end.

That's only when the team is given off. Whole team does it. They all go to different places and events.

 

[Stacks]

Exactly.

Build a team around Ronaldo and you guarantee having a player who will score shite loads of goals and will always take his chances.

If you're going to build a team around a player, it must be someone who will deliver consistently. So far nothing suggests that with Paul. It's the opposite actually.

We'll be out of the title race by Christmas even with Pogba. Pogba isnt that great individually to be a game changer to that extent that he can carry a team to a title. Nowhere near consistent enough, wasnt for Juve, isnt for France and definitely isnt for United.

evidently so.

We were the only team willing to pay 90m EUR for him from Juvenuts when he was at least twice the player he's shown to be here.

Massive talent no doubt. His stock has gone down though from whatever Real valued him at 2 years ago.

False. His best season at Juve yielded 8 goals 12 assists. He is on 5 goals 9 assists (in the league). looks similar to me regardless if he plays deep or the magical left of a 3. The reality is that people thought he was better than he was. Not his fault at all, but he is no Gerrard or midfield general. It was a big outlay for a player such as him, but it can work if we sign better players than him in midfield so he can chip in here and there.

Even with all my criticism for him I'm strongly against selling him. Too much talent to sell and still young. However, he needs to start doing his talent some favor as well with some consistency and maturity.

I firmly agree. He needs to listen to Jose and also his national team coach. In my mind he hasn't quite made it yet, if that makes sense. What I mean is he isn't a world star on ability and is nowhere near on course to Balon D'or as he thinks.

Exactly, everyone is replaceable at the club. If we were in the position of Chelsea or Arsenal then we would have gotten a new manager in the summer.

If we got rid of Pogba and Martial for Kroos and Dybala then I wouldn't bat an eye. Both are better than their counterparts while also being able to give several years to the club.

Obviously I'd want to keep both players, because both are amazing on their day and can turn into world class players with time, but they aren't indispensable.

thats fair. big outlay though

 

[VP89]

evidently so.



False. His best season at Juve yielded 8 goals 12 assists. He is on 5 goals 9 assists (in the league). looks similar to me regardless if he plays deep or the magical left of a 3. The reality is that people thought he was better than he was. Not his fault at all, but he is no Gerrard or midfield general. It was a big outlay for a player such as him, but it can work if we sign better players than him in midfield so he can chip in here and there.

I'm not talking about stats. I hate to just look at goals and assists for anyone playing in the middle 3. His general play and performances at Juvenuts were far better than what he's shown here.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Yeah has has done. Don't have any examples to hand as Instagram stories disappear after 24 hours but I have seen it a couple of times this season. You see it with all of our players on Instagram. For example it seems Herrera is often back in Spain in between games, Lukaku has been to America a few times (even signing with Jay-Z after the Sevilla game) and Lindelof has been out and about to. Just not sure how you can be totally focused on improving when that is happening. The likes of Ronaldo used to travel to America only at the seasons end.

Feck’s sake, really? We really have turned into a team of waster galacticos. That’s infuriating.

 

[Tincanalley]

Here are some stats to substantiate my post further up the page. Pogba compared to some other top CMs.

He looks good in terms of goals/assists but makes less passes, completes a lower % of passes, makes fewer key passes and is generally less likely to win the ball back after losing it. Like I said, he's a luxury player. These were all patterns established at Juventus before we signed him although - interestingly - since joining United his offensive stats have improved slightly, while his defensive stats have got worse. Which is what you'd expect from someone who is buying into his own hype and also goes against the idea that Mourinho is an uber-defensive coach who has throttled Pogba's creativity.

Thanks, @Pogue Mahone - you make a reasonable case. If that’s to be a conclusive verdict, what a pity; I like PP’s energy and playfulness- I actually think he is still developing, might a different coach, or maybe even JM eventually discover his top game?

 

[togg]

It may indeed be the case that Pogba never develops much further than his present state. It wouldn't at all surprise me to discover later on he has ADHD.

 

[Bastian]

It may indeed be the case that Pogba never develops much further than his present state. It wouldn't at all surprise me to discover later on he has ADHD.

That would not explain his lack of professionalism. I'm sure a lot of players might have that. Vardy for one.

 

[FireballXL5]

Maybe if he started putting in consistent £90m performances instead of looking like an over-hyped Carlton Palmer, I might actually care.

 

[Full bodied red]

If he stopped showboating and put his mind down to playing football he could be the best in Europe.

I wouldn't even be too sure of that....

If we can unload him without too much of a financial hit, then just do it.

 

[glazed]

If SAF were the opposing manager, the words 'big time charlie' might be uttered once more.

 

[Stacks]

I'm not talking about stats. I hate to just look at goals and assists for anyone playing in the middle 3. His general play and performances at Juvenuts were far better than what he's shown here.

describe to me in exactly what way? just pretend I have never seen him play. While at Juve, every time I watched him play, I never understood.
During his 1st season at Utd, a Juve fan on the Caf suggested that he doesn't know what we were expecting from Paul. His memory was that for Juve, over a 40-42 game season, Paul would play 10 matches where he looks like the best midfielder in the league, 10 where he looks absolute crap and 20-22 where he is largely indifferent but may chip in with a goal, an assist, or create a couple of nice chances. This sounds the most reasonable description of Paul during his time at United except there has been less of the "best midfielder in the league performances".
I feel people who haven't watched him play built him up to be some dominant all conquering hero, when in fact, he is pretty much what he is now. Its the same for France too.

 

[VP89]

describe to me in exactly what way? just pretend I have never seen him play. While at Juve, every time I watched him play, I never understood.
During his 1st season at Utd, a Juve fan on the Caf suggested that he doesn't know what we were expecting from Paul. His memory was that for Juve, over a 40-42 game season, Paul would play 10 matches where he looks like the best midfielder in the league, 10 where he looks absolute crap and 20-22 where he is largely indifferent but may chip in with a goal, an assist, or create a couple of nice chances. This sounds the most reasonable description of Paul during his time at United except there has been less of the "best midfielder in the league performances".
I feel people who haven't watched him play built him up to be some dominant all conquering hero, when in fact, he is pretty much what he is now. Its the same for France too.

Answer is in bold. Cut the 10 to about 5 and that's him in England.

He wasn't a 90m then and he's even less of a 90m player now, was my original point.

 

[Minimalist]

It's funny because of all the things to bash Mourinho with, I'm not convinced this is one of them. Pogba has it all on himself. His performances are far too irratic to be blamed on tactics or whatever (like you might for other players). I think he's just a bit of a tit, an extremely talented tit.

Some of his numbers are good but they're not good enough to care about him leaving.

He'd need to produce a hell of a lot more for me to shed a tear for his exit.

 

[Handré1990]

It's funny because of all the things to bash Mourinho with, I'm not convinced this is one of them. Pogba has it all on himself. His performances are far too irratic to be blamed on tactics or whatever (like you might for other players). I think he's just a bit of a tit, an extremely talented tit.

Some of his numbers are good but they're not good enough to care about him leaving.

He'd need to produce a hell of a lot more for me to shed a tear for his exit.

Harsh, but fair imo. Not nearly good enough on a consistent basis (Performance, not skills that is).

 

[breakout67]

It's funny because of all the things to bash Mourinho with, I'm not convinced this is one of them. Pogba has it all on himself. His performances are far too irratic to be blamed on tactics or whatever (like you might for other players). I think he's just a bit of a tit, an extremely talented tit.

Some of his numbers are good but they're not good enough to care about him leaving.

He'd need to produce a hell of a lot more for me to shed a tear for his exit.

Forget about numbers, what about doing the basics of midfield play? Modric and Iniesta barely score goals or get assists, but they control the game. That is what Pogba should be doing.

 

[roonster09]

Forget about numbers, what about doing the basics of midfield play? Modric and Iniesta barely score goals or get assists, but they control the game. That is what Pogba should be doing.

You can blame so many things on Pogba but controlling midfield isn't one. It's on coach and how he sets up, this is the coach who thinks if we have possession then we have higher chance of mistake, there is no way Jose team will be controlling midfield against any strong team.

 

[AngliaRed]

If he stopped showboating and put his mind down to playing football he could be the best in Europe.

Where’s the evidence he “showboats” during games?

 

[Swift Football]

Its really sad that Pogba situation has come to all this. In a team that plays in front foot, he can be a real differential, the one that separates a top team from a good one.

The problem with Pogba is he has defensive vulnerabilities when we play him as #6, he lacks the attacking vision of a top #10, and when we play him as #8 in 4-3-3, the team as a whole looks to be lacking creativity. It is a tricky situation, but for sure if we sell him, we are taking away many good things that he brings to this team. For e.g., he is excellent at collecting the ball at our half and then make a run with the ball at his feet, or making cross field passes and many other things. We cannot just highlight his weaknesses and forget all his positive contribution.

If we indeed decide to sell him, whom do we sell to, at what amount and who do we replace him with? PSG seems to be already having FFP issues, Madrid is the only team that I can think of. If we sell him for 100M and replace him with, lets say Savic for 90M, for me that wont address any of our real issues, it will just be replacing Pogba with a poorer version.

OR, maybe Jose is given certain amount which is not enough to bring all the players that Jose wanted. So, Jose want to sell Pogba and raise some money to bring in all the players he wanted and play his preferred 4-2-3-1 formation with 2 proper #6.

 

[Varun]

Forget about numbers, what about doing the basics of midfield play? Modric and Iniesta barely score goals or get assists, but they control the game. That is what Pogba should be doing.

Pogba has never been the guy to run games though, be it for Juve or France. It's odd to say he should be running games for a club like ours when he's never done it.

 

[MoskvaRed]

Its really sad that Pogba situation has come to all this. In a team that plays in front foot, he can be a real differential, the one that separates a top team from a good one.

The problem with Pogba is he has defensive vulnerabilities when we play him as #6, he lacks the attacking vision of a top #10, and when we play him as #8 in 4-3-3, the team as a whole looks to be lacking creativity. It is a tricky situation, but for sure if we sell him, we are taking away many good things that he brings to this team. For e.g., he is excellent at collecting the ball at our half and then make a run with the ball at his feet, or making cross field passes and many other things. We cannot just highlight his weaknesses and forget all his positive contribution.

If we indeed decide to sell him, whom do we sell to, at what amount and who do we replace him with? PSG seems to be already having FFP issues, Madrid is the only team that I can think of. If we sell him for 100M and replace him with, lets say Savic for 90M, for me that wont address any of our real issues, it will just be replacing Pogba with a poorer version.

OR, maybe Jose is given certain amount which is not enough to bring all the players that Jose wanted. So, Jose want to sell Pogba and raise some money to bring in all the players he wanted and play his preferred 4-2-3-1 formation with 2 proper #6.

I’d give Pogba one more year to see if he matures - he is clearly immensely talented. But we do need another midfielder regardless - Herrera is a average, Fellaini is average and leaving and Matic cannot be expected to play every game. Offer Kroos a fat contract, see how they combine together and, if Paul is still flattering to deceive, cut our losses.

​

 

[Kapardin]

Pogba has never been the guy to run games though, be it for Juve or France. It's odd to say he should be running games for a club like ours when he's never done it.

He should be though. Lazy fecker's got more talent than he actually uses.

 

[clarkydaz]

Does he have a counter attack in him? I mean in the sense of a quick one touch pass and SPRINT forward?

 

[3KDré]

Does he have a counter attack in him? I mean in the sense of a quick one touch pass and SPRINT forward?

Did you not watch the Arsenal game?

 

[BusbyMalone]

Does he have a counter attack in him? I mean in the sense of a quick one touch pass and SPRINT forward?

He's certainly capable of it. Depends on what mood he's in. If he feels that he has something to prove then he often overcomplicates the situation which leads to things braking down.

 

[breakout67]

Pogba has never been the guy to run games though, be it for Juve or France. It's odd to say he should be running games for a club like ours when he's never done it.

So a player should be the same from 22 years old till the rest of his career?

It is fair to expect a midfielder to improve his reading of the game as he gains experience. That is why midfielders are able to play longer at their peak than attackers; they use their brain to improve their timing of tackles, passes, runs etc.

Pogba has shown in glimpses that he can control a game when he tries (remember his first game for us against Southampton where he was the best player on the pitch).

All the best midfielders control the game, either through their physicality (ie Vidal and Kante) or through their anticipation (ie Busquets and Kroos). If Pogba cannot direct a game then he isn't the player we want in the team to push us to big trophies. He'll be a squad player for us if he can't make that step up.

 

[Achilles McCool]

Mourinho should be ultimately held responsible because he was the manager when Pogba was signed. And it's always the manager's responsibility to turn his own signings into a success.

Having said that, I do think that Pogba's inability/unwillingness to do the basics expected of a player in the position he wants to play could well be the single biggest factor in our team flattering to deceive this season. He's our star player, someone who cost a huge amount of money, plays in the most influential position on the pitch and is supposed to be at the centre of everything we do as a team. He was even talking this up himself pre-season, when Thierry Henry was asking him what sort of player he wants to be and he basically said someone who can do absolutely everything. When he's consistently failing to track runners, giving the ball away cheaply, not making enough tackles, almost never breaking into a sprint and taking too much time on the ball then is it any wonder that we have only very rarely clicked as a team?

Sure, you'd like to think that Mourinho can "fix" him but it's also possible that he's an unfixable problem. As we all know, his stats at Juve were even worse than what we've seen at United. He was part of an extremely strong team but I suspect his involvement was mainly flitting round the edges of things, racking up tricks and flicks for highlight reels but generally needing all the hard work to be done by other players. The definition of a fair-weather footballer. His inflated fee was down to his excellent agent, his extreme marketability and the potential he had to grow and mature into a proper, well-rounded central midfielder. A potential that was, unfortunately, by no means guaranteed.

It's funny the grief that @sammsky1 got for his "elephant in the room" thread because I think that's exactly what Pogba has become. The one player that - more than any other - has caused this team to malfunction since we signed him. And before anyone says anything, I know that we've also looked shit without him in the team. Arguably even shitter. But that's besides the point. The reason he's missed is because he does have some good qualities, qualities sorely lacking in all our other CMs (creativity, specifically) but that's not worth the downside that comes with all the other flaws in his game. So we're damned without him and damned with him. Had the money been spent on a more well-rounded and disciplined creative central midfielder then our season would probably have turned out a hell of a lot better. Mourinho's to blame for not spending the money wisely but the uphill battle he's fought to get the best out of Pogba since then might be genuinely unwinnable.

Perfectly said!

 

[Varun]

He should be though. Lazy fecker's got more talent than he actually uses.

It requires a different approach to the game imo, something Pogba hasn't shown he's capable of yet. He's young and has plenty of years ahead of him so there's time to add that aspect to his game but as of now, we shouldn't rely on someone who's never ran a game to run it for us.

So a player should be the same from 22 years old till the rest of his career?

It is fair to expect a midfielder to improve his reading of the game as he gains experience. That is why midfielders are able to play longer at their peak than attackers; they use their brain to improve their timing of tackles, passes, runs etc.

Pogba has shown in glimpses that he can control a game when he tries (remember his first game for us against Southampton where he was the best player on the pitch).

All the best midfielders control the game, either through their physicality (ie Vidal and Kante) or through their anticipation (ie Busquets and Kroos). If Pogba cannot direct a game then he isn't the player we want in the team to push us to big trophies. He'll be a squad player for us if he can't make that step up.

Good thing I didn't talk about the rest of his career then, eh?

I would never have the likes of Kante or vidal as guys that control a game. Even the post of yours that i replied to mentioned modric and Iniesta, guys who run games so I assumed that's the sort of control you're talking about.

In any case, not really arsed discussing what he could or couldnt end up doing in the future and where it'd leave him with us. Just dont think we should expect or rely on him to run games. If that's the kind of player we want, we should get one instead of wasting time.

Btw, you really think he could end up a squad player here?

 

[el3mel]

Very good game, especially at second half. Nice assist too.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Better.

Let's see how he does vs Spurs.

 

[Rado_N]

More like it, he needs to mature a bit and learn that keeping it simple works wonders.

 

[#07]

When he keeps it simple he’s a much bigger threat. Compare that move he buggered up by trying a flick, to the simple well measured assist for Lukaku. When he’s direct and doesn’t over elaborate Pogba levels up. I hope he can see that.