If he was being played through injury all this time it's honestly a total feck up from the coaching stuff, especially when one of those games was against a League One side. So we can't put a single lineup to win games without him that we had to risk him getting an aggravated injury ?
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Welcome to our squad depth.
Worrying how he played against Rochdale. Thought it was a run out after recovering but seems he was risked when Europa and the PL are way more important. Rashford looks to have been playing through injury as well.
Squad depth is one thing but if the injury gets worse you're more fecked and we should've put others out there to face Rochdale and take what comes.
Squad depth is one thing but if the injury gets worse you're more fecked and we should've put others out there to face Rochdale and take what comes.
He should have rested against Rochdale. surely we could put a lineup against a league one side without Pogba ? Not that it made much difference with him playing this match through injury as we struggled anyway.
So we just risked him with no benefit gain.Something tells me we won't see much of Pogba this season.
Most comments on here have been regarding his performance not whether he cares or not but yeah use this rubbish argument as a Pogba defence if you like.
Fact is he was useless against the mighty Rochdale and bang average against Arsenal.
He’s been one hell of a let down given the expectation and how he played at Juve! I’ve been a massive critic of him, but the fact still remains without him we seem to have no creativity at all and when his names on the team sheet I feel more confident!
The one thing I just can’t understand is the lack of long range goals he scores for us! During his time in the youth teams and at Juve he was blasting them into the top corner with regularity! His highlights reel is ridiculous! Suddenly he comes to us and the number of goals he’s scored outside the box is terrible! Is the ball different or are we cursed?
The one thing I just can’t understand is the lack of long range goals he scores for us! During his time in the youth teams and at Juve he was blasting them into the top corner with regularity! His highlights reel is ridiculous! Suddenly he comes to us and the number of goals he’s scored outside the box is terrible! Is the ball different or are we cursed?
We're in real trouble at the moment, Matic, McTominay and Lingard isn't going to win us many games in Pogba's absence.
When was the last time Pogba “won” us a game? Last league win was Leicester and he was nowhere to be seen.
We're absolutely fecked. McT is the only decent CM we have left.
Stop regurgitating all the drivel that comes from your Brexit-FC punditry and understand he's being played as a CDM in a shit midfield and shit system with no patterns of play. Who's going to deliver match winning performances by playing defence splitting long balls from the back or expecting Lingard and Rashford to show elite movement and find the pockets?
Winning football matches is about a superior plan that maximizes the talent of your players. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether you grew up supporting the club or that you came through the academy.
Precisely this brexit mindset is taking us backwards from a very low point by sticking with low quality players like Lingard and Rashy because they are local.
We need the highest quality players around, and though Pogba is frustrating he is without doubt our best and only creator.
Quit the double standards in judging Local Players against foreigners.
Imagine if we lost Pogba. Do you think we could attract any non mercenary talent to the club? You think they want to come play with the likes of Jlingz and Rashy? We need to retain and develop our best.
In my opinion, Pogba would be a better midfielder if he was 10cm shorter.
He's just a bit too big for a central midfield player. He may be stronger than the likes of Modric, but significantly less mobile and slower over the first 2-3 steps. His poor acceleration and mobility means that he will almost always be second best to loose balls (of which there tend to be a lot of in midfield). Milinkovic-Savic suffers from many of the same problems Pogba does, his 190cm height is more of a disadvantage than an advantage. I feel that it's biologically more advantageous to be short as a midfielder (like Modric, Xavi, Kante, Bernardo, Verratti etc...)
He's just a bit too big for a central midfield player. He may be stronger than the likes of Modric, but significantly less mobile and slower over the first 2-3 steps. His poor acceleration and mobility means that he will almost always be second best to loose balls (of which there tend to be a lot of in midfield). Milinkovic-Savic suffers from many of the same problems Pogba does, his 190cm height is more of a disadvantage than an advantage. I feel that it's biologically more advantageous to be short as a midfielder (like Modric, Xavi, Kante, Bernardo, Verratti etc...)
I think it's only for tonight's game. Expect him back against Newcastle at least for 60 min.
He's a loss when out but he's been nowhere near good enough given his talent
the only game we saw a decent performance from Pogba was against Chelsea.....
injury or not overly bothered?
Really hoping to see a 3 of McTominay and Fred behind Gomes later
the only game we saw a decent performance from Pogba was against Chelsea.....
injury or not overly bothered?
Really hoping to see a 3 of McTominay and Fred behind Gomes later
Your logic is flawed from the go, the poster you quoted mentioned 3 players are not working well enough to win us a game and you wanna look at Pogba in isolation as him not winning us games. Put Messi in this team, he wouldn't win us many games either.
26 year old messi would destroy Arsenal’s defence, stop talking bollocks.
We need a full reset and selling Pogba as part of that reset is hardly an outrageous idea. In fact you could even argue it's a logical approach and will be beneficial in the long term.
He's being played as a deep lying playmaker. His job is to recycle possession and build attacks from the back with progressive passing. He is not being used as a defensive midfielder as it would be commonly understood.
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Stop talking bollocks yourself, Messi alone, in a team like United wouldn't destroy much. Have you not seen him with Argentina ? I swear you live in your own bubble where Pogba is to be blamed for all the problems in this world. At 26 years old, he was playing as an integral part to one of the best club teams in history. You didn't adress the first part of what I said.
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This is true, but I think many people just like to list positions by position on the field. And in this context, it is still valid of a response to say that his position on the field does affect his ability to make a final pass or score.
But Pogba isn't and has never been a deep lying playmaker, it's probably the most obvious role that he can't do.
I don't have problem with his end product from that position this season. It's his possession turnovers and short passing that's alarming.
I do think it's fair to say that 'service' is a two way street though, we just don't have clever movement up top. We don't really have cute technical attackers to break a low block.
@JPRouve
But how do you fit him into the popular tactical systems of the day?
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Blaming him won't do anything, not his fault he's not put in position to succeed.
Most of our fanbase isn't very smart. The scapegoating they're engaging in will drive him away. It's all a ploy by Madrid using the press to create this divide & people who don't think fall for it and feed the sensationalism.
He will leave on the cheap and be a star player there because that club won't be run by idiots who put the wrong people in charge. In the end it's the fans who have driven our best player away and we'll continue further into mediocrity having lost our most talented player whose talent vacuum will not be replaced by the likes of James Madison (despite what a lot of delusional fans might think)
Most of our fanbase isn't very smart. The scapegoating they're engaging in will drive him away. It's all a ploy by Madrid using the press to create this divide & people who don't think fall for it and feed the sensationalism.
He will leave on the cheap and be a star player there because that club won't be run by idiots who put the wrong people in charge. In the end it's the fans who have driven our best player away and we'll continue further into mediocrity having lost our most talented player whose talent vacuum will not be replaced by the likes of James Madison (despite what a lot of delusional fans might think)
Facts. Especially the bold bits.
As a member of a midfield three as an attacking box to box on the left, it particularly makes sense when both Rashford and James are more inside forwards than wingers and our left fullback isn't exactly attacking. But the issue isn't Pogba, it's that we don't have a competent deep lying playmaker to play behind Pogba-McTominay and we don't have a competent right winger/inside forward that would prevent team from overloading their right side. That's why many posters have said that we should have spent Maguire money on a right side attacker and deep lying midfielder. Currently in our 4231 we are not positionally balanced, we are easy to defend against because with Lingard and Pereira we create nothing from the middle or the right side and they aren't even useful as outlets in ball recycling schemes. More often than not we virtually play with 8 outfield player., Think about it this way, United averages around 500 passes per games in the PL and combined Lingard and Pereira average less than 45 passes per game, our #10 combined with an other player averages less than the team average.
And I get why people focus on Pogba when I look at the stats, he averages 73 passes per game in the PL, compares that to Silva and De Bruyne who are around 45, Pogba isn't the equivalent of Rodri, Fernandinho or Busquets these are the type of players that have been developed for that role of simply moving the ball around but they also have quick and easy options around them which is key to their role.
I hope that you don't read it as a defense of Pogba because that's not the point, my point is that we have a collective issue that affects lots of players, Pogba is simply one of them.
You can defend Pogba if you want, it isn't something that needs to be apologised for, it's more the deification of him and the Pogchester United brigade that are jarring.
I don't think he does fit in a midfield 3 in the way the modern game is played. The new breed of 8 has to be hard running and hard pressing, otherwise the attacking formation leaves the defence exposed. It's one of the 4-3-3 formations fundamental weaknesses if the 8 is unsuitable.
In his best season at Juve they played a 3-5-2 with the idea being that his wing back and same sided centre back covered him in the defensive phase. We don't have any wing backs though and the 3-5-2 doesn't seem to be a formation that many managers commit to long term.
I do agree that we have much more pressing concerns than Pogba but for all his talent on the ball I don't see how we fit him easily in a system in an era where systems have become king.
I'm sorry but that's wrong, there isn't such thing as modern game and new 8 aren't a thing either hard running and hard pressing is nothing new to the role. Also Juventus didn't use a system for Pogba, that system was already used by Conte when Pogba wasn't at Juventus, Allegri used it too because the way they built the team over the years meant that they didn't had top wide attacking players but did have very competent wingbacks and centerbacks, so they often switched between 352, 4231 and 433 depending on game situations and regardless of Pogba.
I think he'll leave this summer and I don't blame him.
We've not matched his ambition, we not signed the quality of players who can take advantage of his talent.
Right now we're playing Lingard as CAM rather than this guy.
We've not matched his ambition, we not signed the quality of players who can take advantage of his talent.
Right now we're playing Lingard as CAM rather than this guy.
There isn't such thing as the modern game? So you are saying that teams don't run further and at faster speeds than they used to? High intensity running has increased by 30% in the Premier League in the past 5 years alone! I think that players run 3 times further than they used in the 1970s! The level of high intensity pressing is something new and the data proves it. The pitch hasn't got any bigger so this naturally means that the game is quite different now from the past.
I said his best season was in a 3-5-2, not that Juve built the system around him and gave reasons as to why that might be.
I'm talking about the prevalence of the 4-3-3 system among top sides, a system that is absent of a number 10 and has 2 8s that are not required to be creative primarily but they are required to be hard working and contribute defensively because of the attacking nature of the formation.
Player are faster and fitter because they are better trained and conditioned, it has nothing to do with the modern game, it's a function of sports science and is true in every single sport. It's not tactical.
And Pogba does contributes defensively, he contributes as much as someone like De Bruyne or Silva who I suppose are seen as modern 8. And you are not going to tell me that De Bruyne primary role is to be hardworking that's nonsensical, not every team play or has to play like Liverpool. And in general your premise is wrong because there isn't one way to play football in 2019 and you create your own balance by taking into account the qualities and flaws of your own players whoever they are.
You are too caught in trends like the 352, inverted wingers, playing it from the back, gegenpress, Tiki Taka or having two attacking fullbacks. These are trends based on few succesful teams, they are only really relevant for these teams and their players. City, Liverpool, Real Madrid and Barcelona play differently with a different dynamic in midfield despite all mainly using a midfield three and that's because they have different types of players around that midfield, different attackers and different defenders.
If anything we need to stop watching other teams and focus on ourselves, create our balance which if successful will be one of these new trends, that people will call modern game.
The Manchester United medical team OBVIOSULY cleared him to play, otherwise there's no way he'd be on the pitch.
Because we have a manager that used to be a player and knows how much to push them unlike Mourinho, right?
Very well said. I've said it before we don't have the same players as City/ Liverpool so I don't get why people incessantly compare us to them.
Now more than ever, we need to ignore them and do our own thing, find our own success instead of trying to copy trends like a mid-table club.
Sorry JP but the pressing style is tactical and sports science is part of the modern game in a big way, you could even argue that it's advances are shaping the way the game is played. The key physical indicator in the tiers of English football are the number of high intensity sprints that players are able to perform in a game. Premier League players complete more than Championship players and Championship players complete more than League One players.
The 8s in a 4-3-3 have to be hardworking primarily for the system to function, if they have creative quality too then its a bonus. Look at any coaching resource and its one of the key functions of the 8 in that system. Klopp tried to upgrade in the 8 position with Keita who was supposed to have the energy and quality but that hasn't worked out for them. Pogba is in the bottom bracket of any midfielders in the league for ground covered in a game. It's about closing space in behind when you play an attacking formation. It's where tactical fouls come from and why Pep favours small agile players with higher work rate capabilities. winning the ball back quickly after losing it requires hard running and the endurance to do it for 90 minutes.
And there is the issue, you are not talking about modern football but a particular tactical approach that you fancy, which is fine but don't confuse it for anything else. Teams use different pressing style depending on the players at their disposal and their manager background. And anyway it's a very weird point to make in this thread, because during the first months of Ole tenure we actually used pressing patterns that were close to what Klopp could use and Pogba was perfectly fine in it even though he was never given any rest, it just disappeared when Herrera and the front three ended up with muscular injuries.
As for the use of the distance and sprints stats to make that type of claim about one player, it's extremely flawed. As an example we were top 3 in those stats with LVG and bottom third with Mourinho, all players have seen their stats reduced not because they magically weren't fit to play modern football but because the manager's instructions were different.
So while Pogba isn't going to play like Wijnaldum the team can still have an intense pressing system, if that's what we want, it just needs to be adapted to our players. But you can't play players through the ground like Ole did which caused injuries to multiple players and loss of form to others. And by the way, if we wanted to play like Liverpool we would also have to change half of the team, De Gea included and the manager.
Two problems there JP, one is that under that amazing run under Ole our xG said that we were not fine in terms of system, we were conceding lots of good chances but our opponents were not taking advantage of them.
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City only conceded roughly 2 less than their xG over the course of 38 games and Liverpool 7. There was a foreboding disconnect in that period over our defensive performances. and goals conceded. Over the course of 38 games our xG against would have been 18 less than predicted if that trend continued, almost twice that of the next side in the PL that conceded less than predicted.
The other problem is that Pogba ran markedly less than our other midfielders under Mourinho. They were not that far off the average of sides like City and Liverpool. It was more the lack of work rate from our attacking players that was really alarming.
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When this guy is in CAM, he does poorly and the Pogba fans say he shouldn't be CAM.
The first problem is a team problem and why I mentioned balance several times, you need to adapt to your own team, hide its flaws and expose its qualities, create your own balance. The second one is not necessarily a problem, not all players have to run the same amount because they don't have the same roles or the same attributes, for example Pogba had far better creativity stats than Liverpool midfielders and was close to Liverpool most creative players(if I remember correctly) and it was fine for them because their creativity came from their fullbacks and front three. As for the attackers it was an issue for us because they weren't compensating it with end product.
Now I can make a step in your direction in saying that every player needs to provide something, for example our attackers can't be "lazy", they are not clinical or creative enough for that. Pogba needs to create a lot in order to justify his role, if he doesn't or if his creativity can be provided by our front three and our fullbacks then we will be in a positon to claim that he can be replaced by a hardworking midfielder. But this has nothing to do with modern football, it's a simple matter of balance, that's why I'm not against the idea of selling him if it allows us to finance a different approach. The only issue is that currently Pogba isn't the odd man, there isn't an approach that is one Pogba away from success, we are missing are numerous enough players that it allows us to create anything with the corerct purchases.
I will say it one last time and we should move on after that. We do not have to play like City or Liverpool, there are many ways to be successful in 2019, Pogba doesn't have to be like Wijnaldum or De Bruyne, De Gea doesn't have to be like Ederson and Allisson. Martial doesn't have to be like Aguero or Firminho. Like every teams we need to be creative and defend well, those things are done with 11 players.
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