Paul Pogba

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Lay

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Tbf it has declined massively though. You see so many "top" players leaving the Serie A and fail in other countries, then you have many average players going to Italy and suddenly they are superstars like Gervinho or Callejon.
It's not one of the worst by any means but I'm not not sure it's even better than the French League atm.
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Gervinho was good at Arsenal, it was just his final ball. Maybe being coached by the same manager at Lille has helped him at Roma?

We can look at players like Llorente who has his critics at Juventus, despite looking very good at Bilbao, or Bojan for example, underwhelming in Italy and woeful at Ajax but now is becoming a star in the EPL. Players fail or succeed for a lot of reasons in different leagues.
 

gofelx

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He wasn't underwhelming, he was actually pretty good, I thought James should have got young player though (if he was eligable)
Also regarding Gervinho he didn't have the best time at Arsenal but he was obvioulsy a good player.
Example Forlan failed at United but did well at Athletico he was also obvioulsy a good player, those things happen.
Underwhelming by his standards I mean. He certainly wasn't as dominant as he showed before imo, completely disappeared in the quarters too.
Before France didn't face good opposition, didn't they play Honduras, Nigeria, Switzerland and Ecuador before that?

I know what you mean but for my liking it happens with way too many players though, when I look at Cavani, Lavezzi, Balotelli, Lamela etc. , they were all top players in Serie A and bought for big money but none of them really established themselves abroad. I honestly fail to name many players in the last few years who made it elsewhere, Coutinho is one but he didn't even get many chances at Inter.
 

kouroux

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There's not much else of any note, is there ?
Plenty of great players have emerged from those other leagues, they deserve a little bit more respect but we're talking about Italy, not some dark corner of Europe.
Gervinho was good at Arsenal, it was just his final ball. Maybe being coached by the same manager at Lille has helped him at Roma?

We can look at players like Llorente who has his critics at Juventus, despite looking very good at Bilbao, or Bojan for example, underwhelming in Italy and woeful at Ajax but now is becoming a star in the EPL. Players fail or succeed for a lot of reasons in different leagues.
Exactly, to reduce it to a simple League A > League B as to why this or that player fail is too simplistic.
 

Cassidy

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Underwhelming by his standards I mean. He certainly wasn't as dominant as he showed before imo, completely disappeared in the quarters too.
Before France didn't face good opposition, didn't they play Honduras, Nigeria, Switzerland and Ecuador before that?

I know what you mean but for my liking it happens with way too many players though, when I look at Cavani, Lavezzi, Balotelli, Lamela etc. , they were all top players in Serie A and bought for big money but none of them really established themselves abroad. I honestly fail to name many players in the last few years who made it elsewhere, Coutinho is one but he didn't even get many chances at Inter.
That because you are being selective though.
Thiago Silva, A Sanchez, Ibra you can also name successful ones.
 

GloryHunter07

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He's a banker ability wise and his value won't go down. In 4 or 5 years transfer fees will only go north. Even if we "only" got £50m for him it would be money well spent.
Buying any 21/22 year old for nearly a record £80m is clearly not risk free, regardless of talent.

Saying that his value "wont go down" is equally crazy. What do you think Ballotelli is worth now?
 

Pexbo

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Buying any 21/22 year old for nearly a record £80m is clearly not risk free, regardless of talent.

Saying that his value "wont go down" is equally crazy. What do you think Ballotelli is worth now?
Balotelli? Every man and his dog called that a huge gamble when he signed for Man City let alone Liverpool. Completely different scenario.

Pogba is a different kettle of fish. He's already in the Top 10 midfielders in Europe with huge room for growth.
 

GloryHunter07

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Balotelli? Every man and his dog called that a huge gamble when he signed for Man City let alone Liverpool. Completely different scenario.

Pogba is a different kettle of fish. He's already in the Top 10 midfielders in Europe with huge room for growth.
So there is no risk that Pogba arrives at United after his £80m transfer and thinks he is bulletproof and will get into the team without lifting a finger?

No chance of him doing a Veron?

No chance of picking up a terrible injury?
 

Pexbo

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So there is no risk that Pogba arrives at United after his £80m transfer and thinks he is bulletproof and will get into the team without lifting a finger?

No chance of him doing a Veron?

No chance of picking up a terrible injury?
Yeah he might be hit by a bus or contract Ebola. Sorry, hadn't thought it through.
 

gasmanc

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Plenty of great players have emerged from those other leagues, they deserve a little bit more respect but we're talking about Italy, not some dark corner of Europe.
Yes I know that plenty of European countries produce plenty of great players but a lot leave for the big three.
Serie A has declined terribly, there's no denying that.
Of the noteable leagues across Europe it is one of the poorer.
If people want to claim the Danish superliga is worse nobody will argue but my basis was on what we've witnessed in Europe.
No Italian sides are anywhere near in CL and that's literally the only benchmark you have of how teams across Europe compare to one another.
 

GloryHunter07

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Yeah he might be hit by a bus or contract Ebola. Sorry, hadn't thought it through.
How facetious.
Clearly your concept of "risk free" is different to mine. Remind me not to let you look after my life savings.
 

buckooo1978

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How facetious.
Clearly your concept of "risk free" is different to mine. Remind me not to let you look after my life savings.
I suppose every player comes with a risk factor though

Veron, Shevchenko, Torres , Morientes

you'd have backed them all to be massive successes and even Torres was PL proven
 

kouroux

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Yes I know that plenty of European countries produce plenty of great players but a lot leave for the big three.
Serie A has declined terribly, there's no denying that.
Of the noteable leagues across Europe it is one of the poorer.
If people want to claim the Danish superliga is worse nobody will argue but my basis was on what we've witnessed in Europe.
No Italian sides are anywhere near in CL and that's literally the only benchmark you have of how teams across Europe compare to one another.
Yes but it doesn't give a full picture of how a player performing in a certain weak league would perform in Europe's best. My point is that, just because he is doing it in Italy doesn't mean he wouldn't be able to do in England or Spain.
 

Pexbo

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How facetious.
Clearly your concept of "risk free" is different to mine. Remind me not to let you look after my life savings.
I think you take things a little too literally. We're talking of a football transfer, it doesn't need to be said that there are obvious risks. As far as big money transfers on top talents go though, putting £80m on Pogba's is as safe a bet as you'll get.

With his style of play he's got 15 years in him and a queue of top teams wanting him to play for them. If we signed him for £80m, injury disaster aside, you can be sure that not only will you have one of the best midfielders in Europe on your books, you'll also have a queue willing to pay close to what you paid 5 years down the line when he reaches the grand old age of 26 and still had a decade of football left in him.
 

GloryHunter07

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I suppose every player comes with a risk factor though

Veron, Shevchenko, Torres , Morientes

you'd have backed them all to be massive successes and even Torres was PL proven
Yes, thats my point. Pexbo said he was risk free.

I always thought Sheva was a gamble at his age.
 

GloryHunter07

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Backtracking

I think you take things a little too literally. We're talking of a football transfer, it doesn't need to be said that there are obvious risks. As far as big money transfers on top talents go though, putting £80m on Pogba's is as safe a bet as you'll get.

With his style of play he's got 15 years in him and a queue of top teams wanting him to play for them. If we signed him for £80m, injury disaster aside, you can be sure that not only will you have one of the best midfielders in Europe on your books, you'll also have a queue willing to pay close to what you paid 5 years down the line when he reaches the grand old age of 26 and still had a decade of football left in him.
When is something not "risk free"?

When there are "obvious risks"
 

Pexbo

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Yes, thats my point. Pexbo said he was risk free.

I always thought Sheva was a gamble at his age.
I said he's a banker. Jesus, chill out man. You're like a fecking lawyer or something.

"No risk" is just words you pulled out of your own arse.

Edited. Apologies to anyone it might have offended.
 
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GloryHunter07

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I said he's a banker. Jesus, chill out man. You're like a fecking lawyer or something.

"No risk" is just words you pulled out of your own arse when you got all aspergers on me.
Nope, you said it mate.
I can see Woodward dropping £80m+ on him, without doubt.

I think it would massage Woodwards ego making up for Ferguson and Gills shortcomings and I think it would massage Pogba's ego being the prodigal son who we pay the earth to bring home.

On top of that its risk free, his resale value is huge. If we drop £80m on him we could get far more than that in return after getting 6 great years out of him.
You said its risk free. It isnt, admit it and stop calling names.
 

Rado_N

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I said he's a banker. Jesus, chill out man. You're like a fecking lawyer or something.

"No risk" is just words you pulled out of your own arse when you got all aspergers on me.
Reign it in a bit please mate.
 

Rozay

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I still think last summer's window would have been even more interesting had Moyes staed, judging by all reports - and I reckon we would have tried to push this deal through. Would love to have him back here. Made for England and would take us up a level for sure. Let's hope Evra was sent there for that reason alone. He's no Agent Dave, but many of our lads seem to moonlight as agents these days!
 

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Yes but it doesn't give a full picture of how a player performing in a certain weak league would perform in Europe's best. My point is that, just because he is doing it in Italy doesn't mean he wouldn't be able to do in England or Spain.
It's just an obvious question I suppose, I've personally not seen to much of him, even at the WC.
It's been seen time and again that players who look stand out in other leagues cone here and suffer from big fish in a small pond disease.
I'm not making any judgements on Pogba though because as stated I've not seen enough.
80 million though :houllier:
 

Pexbo

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Nope, you said it mate.

You said its risk free. It isnt, admit it and stop calling names.
Sorry, I said its risk free. You got me. Apologies if you took it literally and not figuratively.
 

B20

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Sorry, I said its risk free. You got me. Apologies if you took it literally and not figuratively.
That's more like it. Temp ban for pexbo as a proper show of repentance?
 

GloryHunter07

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Sorry, I said its risk free. You got me. Apologies if you took it literally and not figuratively.
Sorry for thinking you meant risk free when you said risk free.

Not sure it merited the offensive comments from you but hey ho.
 

DOTA

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Relatedly... surely clubs insure their players against serious injury? So if you spend £50mil on someone and their legs drop off the following week, you're taking a hit, but you haven't lost £50mil.
 

Balu

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Relatedly... surely clubs insure their players against serious injury? So if you spend £50mil on someone and their legs drop off the following week, you're taking a hit, but you haven't lost £50mil.
Doubt it, it's absolutely impossible for any insurance to calculate that risk and come up with a reasonable fee.
 

DOTA

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Doubt it, it's absolutely impossible for any insurance to calculate that risk and come up with a reasonable fee.
Really? You don't just run a few stats, get an independent medical done, and come up with something sensible? It seems no trickier to me than insuring other things.
 

Balu

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Really? You don't just run a few stats, get an independent medical done, and come up with something sensible? It seems no trickier to me than insuring other things.
The number of cases would be incredibly small for a start, therefore variance becomes a huge huge problem. If you insure thousands of 50m transfers, it's less of a problem obviously, but if you insure 3 or 4 cases, it becomes a game of luck, nothing more. Also, there are too many uncontrollable factors involved when it comes to injuries in professional sports.

The European Club Association forced UEFA and FIFA to insure all the players to reduce the financial risks for the clubs through injuries at international tournaments. But the compensations don't even cover the wages as far as I know and it's a much bigger number of players and wages are less extreme in comparison to big transfer deals.

I'm no expert, but from what I know about the insurance business, I can't see it and I never heard of it.
 

sun_tzu

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Really? You don't just run a few stats, get an independent medical done, and come up with something sensible? It seems no trickier to me than insuring other things.
Im not sure that transfer values are usually insured but wages (or at least a hefty chunk of them) typically are which is not all that different to any sickness at work policy other than the numbers are eye wateringly high and there are more risk factors so it would be fairly specialist underwriting required - though that said the insurance company would re insure their loss with one of the major re-insurers (who in turn is probably reinsured to some extent through other major re insurers... and so the world of finance turns on and on and on with ever greater aggregation of risk)
 

DOTA

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The number of cases would be incredibly small for a start, therefore variance becomes a huge huge problem. If you insure thousands of 50m transfers, it's less of a problem obviously, but if you insure 3 or 4 cases, it becomes a game of luck, nothing more. Also, there are too many uncontrollable factors involved when it comes to injuries in professional sports.

The European Club Association forced UEFA and FIFA to insure all the players to reduce the financial risks for the clubs through injuries at international tournaments. But the compensations don't even cover the wages as far as I know and it's a much bigger number of players and wages are less extreme in comparison to big transfer deals.

I'm no expert, but from what I know about the insurance business, I can't see it and I never heard of it.
Fair enough. Your guess sounds more informed than mine.

Bolded bit makes sense. Clubs need some form of protection of their 'assets', when they're out of their control.
 

DOTA

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Im not sure that transfer values are usually insured but wages (or at least a hefty chunk of them) typically are which is not all that different to any sickness at work policy other than the numbers are eye wateringly high and there are more risk factors so it would be fairly specialist underwriting required - though that said the insurance company would re insure their loss with one of the major re-insurers (who in turn is probably reinsured to some extent through other major re insurers... and so the world of finance turns on and on and on with ever greater aggregation of risk)
I hate the world.
 

Lawman

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It's just an obvious question I suppose, I've personally not seen to much of him, even at the WC.
It's been seen time and again that players who look stand out in other leagues cone here and suffer from big fish in a small pond disease.
I'm not making any judgements on Pogba though because as stated I've not seen enough.
80 million though :houllier:
Agree 80m is bonkers for a player who is not a game changer! Albeit a good player, I'd rather we spent that on Bale if we had to.
 

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Letting Pogba go might be one of SAF's biggest failures and will continue to sting for a while. He is already one of the best midfielders in the world at the age of 21 and I am almost certain that the day will come when he will be the very best. You might say he had attitude issues and was too demanding but all he wanted was game time and considering the situation back then he should have had more chances.

I honestly dont think he'd comeback to United at any price, seems Madrid/PSG bound to me.
Agreed. Letting him go then was a huge blunder. Midfield has been a achilles heel for years now, and with him aboard, we would massivley improve.

Still, buying him back for 80m would be terrible buisness on our part. Better to accept our loss and move on
 

RooneyLegend

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He's as close to a risk free signing as there is in football. He's the sort of player that would cut it in any league in the world at any level. He's imo the most complete midfielder in world football. People need to judge footballers as individuals rather than which league such a player comes from.
 

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Here`s the article from Telegraph.

Paul Pogba: I still love Manchester United but they never gave me a chance
French midfielder left United for £800,000 without starting a match - but is now a world star who United would need £50m to re-sign


Paul Pogba during a rare moment of first team action at Manchester United Photo: REUTERS

By Telegraph Sport

2:49PM GMT 14 Jan 2015

Comment


Paul Pogba has revealed why he left Manchester United but insisted he still loves the club and will never "speak ill" of them.

The French midfielder left Old Trafford in 2012 after failing to start a first-team match in England. He joined Juventus for around £800,000, since when he has become one of the most highly-rated midfielders in world football, with a price tag in excess of £50million.

He has previous spoken of being "disgusted" at his treatment by Sir Alex Ferguson, but in an interview with FourFourTwo magazine, he said his relationship with his former club had not been damaged.

Pogba, who shares an agent with widely-travelled Liverpool striker Mario Balotelli, has been linked with several leading English clubs, including United themselves, Manchester City and Chelsea, although there seems no prospect of him moving in the January transfer window.

"I'm impatient," Pogba, 21, told FourFourTwo. 'It was the feeling I had. The coach (Ferguson) had faith in me but didn't put me on. He said that I was too young.


"He said 'your time will come' but it never did. It didn't come. But it does not mean I will speak ill of Manchester United. I love the club."

In an earlier interview, Pogba had said the final straw at United had come when Ferguson picked full-back Rafael ahead of him in midfield.

Pogba said: "It was a very, very difficult moment for me because I was in love with Manchester and I was a Mancunian.

"It was the match against Blackburn in December 2011 at Old Trafford.

"Paul Scholes had retired, Darren Fletcher was injured. There was no one left to play in midfield. And I was training and I was beginning to get better bit by bit and the coach never stopped telling me, 'You're this far'.

"And I didn't understand. This far away from what? Playing? From having some playing time? From getting on the field? Or what?

"And there was Rafael in midfield and I was disgusted. I was disgusted and I didn't get on either."
 
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