Premier League Gameweek 33-35

[Klopper76]

Having watched more or less the same number of games this season of Liverpool and Everton, I've noticed more decisions going Liverpool's way than any other team. I know there is this cliche that things even themselves out but I don't buy it.

So do you think there’s some kind of conspiracy amongst the referee’s to help Liverpool?

Not sure about that.

A penalty to Everton could easily have ended in a draw.

I mean you only scored two goals all game and that was after Everton were a bit more positive when they went one goal down, leaving spaces for you to exploit. They could have sat on that goal and gone to ground at every opportunity and used subs to kill the game.

It was a match defining moment, but not the only one.

They were sat on a 0-0 going to ground and time wasting for the entire first half. The second half was different, especially when Diaz came on. I’d still back us to overturn it given the respective quality of the two sides.

Mane being sent off would’ve had a bigger impact on the game though.

Is the below correct? I didn’t realise Everton had spent that much over the last few years.

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[kouroux]

So do you think there’s some kind of conspiracy amongst the referee’s to help Liverpool?

It's the best interest of the PL to have title race going until the last game of the season for sure. I watch the recent games vs Man City and yesterday Everton, I just wonder how Liverpool escaped a red card if the ref consciously don't make an effort to help out.

 

[SilentWitness]

Probably a more prescient stat that led to defeat:

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Not really. As said before we had a specific game plan to frustrate you into mistakes etc. which was working. Unfortunately the refs didn’t understand that you’re supposed to referee for both teams.

 

[Mogget]

It's the best interest of the PL to have title race going until the last game of the season for sure. I watch the recent games vs Man City and yesterday Everton, I just wonder how Liverpool escaped a red card if the ref consciously don't make an effort to help out.

Do you think this is a recent change or did ever United benefit from this under SAF?

 

[RobinLFC]

It's the best interest of the PL to have title race going until the last game of the season for sure. I watch the recent games vs Man City and yesterday Everton, I just wonder how Liverpool escaped a red card if the ref consciously don't make an effort to help out.

So just to confirm, you believe the Premier League has actively told its referees not to give decisions against Liverpool to aid them in the title race? Do you also think they told refs to give decisions against City when they were up 11 points earlier in the season then?

Or maybe, just a wild thought, Stuart Atwell is just a completely incompetent referee who shit his pants after the Matip push yesterday and didn't blow his whistle as a result. But even then, if it was that obvious a foul, VAR would or should have intervened.

 

[Giggsyking]

Why is it a joke? United went a decade or so not conceding a penalty at Old Trafford from 90s into early 00s. Mainly because they controlled football matches and offered few opportunities for opponents to win penalties.

I can barely remember an incident over the past year where Liverpool ‘got away’ with a penalty decision. The main story you should take from that stat is the brilliance of the Liverpool defenders. Engineering bias into statistical patterns is merely a form of cognitive dissonance that football fans of all types specialise in.

Today’s Gordon incident when he stepped into Matip’s path was possibly a penalty but he also looked for it. This means it’s not clear and obvious so VAR won’t overturn the on field decision. Pretty easy to explain.

How is this guy a full member?

 

[Giggsyking]

He did.

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How is this not given? The amount of favoritism Liverpool get is disgusting.

 

[Giggsyking]

Do you think this is a recent change or did ever United benefit from this under SAF?

I think Arsenal benefited from it in the 90's 00's to make the league look more competitive. They cant just let united win every season.

 

[SilentWitness]

We do generally speaking control most of the possession in our games. I can't remember many times reading on here in the last year a lot of outrage about a penalty not being given against us. Lots of outrage about yellows not given to Thiago or Fabinho, penalties given in our favor, opponents missing sitters and some other bits and pieces but tbh I think we've been good at avoiding situations where a penalty could be given for the most part.

I'm not one of those fans that absolutely detests Liverpool / can't see that they are the best or at least the 2nd best side in the world currently but I do think you're given that leniancy that other clubs aren't. It's part of being one of the top clubs in the league unfortunately.

 

[SilentWitness]

Almost as convincing a defence as…<insert Everton joke here>

I don't feel the need to defend myself with someone who is too biased to have reasoned arguments.

 

[Giggsyking]

@PickledRed

 

[RobinLFC]

I'm not one of those fans that absolutely detests Liverpool / can't see that they are the best or at least the 2nd best side in the world currently but I do think you're given that leniancy that other clubs aren't. It's part of being one of the top clubs in the league unfortunately.

But by recognizing that you implicitly also agree that, contrary to what some on here like to argue, there's no general scheme or bribe from higher up the PL chain to keep Liverpool in the title race. The bolded part is no different than what is being said in Belgium about Anderlecht and Club Bruges, or in The Netherlands about Ajax if I speak to my Dutch friends. It's just the benefit of being a big club.

It's exactly why Liverpool fans thought SAF had the PL bosses in his pocket when United was on top of the league for two decades, and what they got ridiculed for on here back then. Don't get me wrong, I totally understand that it can be infuriating as a rival (and I kinda feel for you not being given the penalty last night), but I find it hard to reason or argue with someone who genuinely believes the referees have been instructed to keep us in the title race.

 

[Berbasbullet]

@PickledRed

Neh just a little push, he ran across his path so he deserved it.

 

[SilentWitness]

But by recognizing that you implicitly also agree that, contrary to what some on here like to argue, there's no general scheme or bribe from higher up the PL chain to keep Liverpool in the title race. The bolded part is no different than what is being said in Belgium about Anderlecht and Club Bruges, or in The Netherlands about Ajax if I speak to my Dutch friends.

It's exactly why Liverpool fans thought SAF had the PL bosses in his pocket when United was on top of the league for two decades, and what they got ridiculed for on here back then. Don't get me wrong, I totally understand that it can be infuriating as a rival (and I kinda feel for you not being given the penalty last night), but I find it hard to reason or argue with someone who genuinely believes the referees have been instructed to keep us in the title race.

I don't believe in that conspiracy of bribing or scheme to keep a title race alive, I just think it's a human reaction from a referee where they know Liverpool/City now and United then (including their managers) are and were the top dogs so an element of fear/human emotion came into play. VAR is supposed to remove that human element to an extent but it still isn't and that's one of my biggest gripes with it.

 

[Giggsyking]

We were winning that game regardless of that being given. Everton made fewer passes as a team than Thiago did on his own across the 90 minutes. Allan made two passes all game and they were kick offs.

Mane being sent off would've had an impact. Would've given Everton some hope and allowed them to come out of their shell a bit more. 32 passes across the entire first half as a team.

I wonder if Villarreal will try something similar on Wednesday.

So Everton frustrating Liverpool, get a penalty at 0-0 at the 55th minute. Then Liverpool win regardless. You folk have no sense in football.

 

[RobinLFC]

I don't believe in that conspiracy of bribing or scheme to keep a title race alive, I just think it's a human reaction from a referee where they know Liverpool/City now and United then (including their managers) are and were the top dogs so an element of fear/human emotion came into play. VAR is supposed to remove that human element to an extent but it still isn't and that's one of my biggest gripes with it.

You still keep human decisions in play if you put a referee behind those screens, unfortunately. I don't think it's wrong, I just think it's being applied wrongly. No qualms if the VAR ref thought it was not a penalty yesterday, but at the very least he should have the reaction "oh hey, there might be something into this, let's call the ref and let him review his decision based on the replay". That's all they need to do for me but I guess that doesn't really go with the "clear and obvious error" narrative.

 

[SilentWitness]

You still keep human decisions in play if you put a referee behind those screens, unfortunately. I don't think it's wrong, I just think it's being applied wrongly. No qualms if the VAR ref thought it was not a penalty yesterday, but at the very least he should have the reaction "oh hey, there might be something into this, let's call the ref and let him review his decision based on the replay". That's all they need to do for me but I guess that doesn't really go with the "clear and obvious error" narrative.

Yeah, you still have them but it removes decision making based on the seconds you've seen live by being able to repeatedly observe something. They need to remove the clear and obvious thing.

 

[PickledRed]

I don't feel the need to defend myself with someone who is too biased to have reasoned arguments.

Which team has had more derby penalties at Anfield over the past decade?

 

[SilentWitness]

Which team has had more derby penalties at Anfield over the past decade?

What has that got to do with the fact that you received favourable/wrong decisions yesterday?

 

[PickledRed]

How is this guy a full member?

I joined around half a decade before you…during a time when United were one of the world’s best teams.

During that period I read very little about the best teams getting refereeing decisions, about ‘Lucky Liverpool’ and didn’t get sensitive folk asking about my membership status.

Wonder why.

 

[Buchan]

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Astounding.

How do this lot continually get away with shambolic, cowardly refereeing?

And how come the football media at large appear to have no desire to highlight it? A few high-profile discussions around it and it’s eradicated within a week alá how Klopp - overnight - ensured we were denied stone-wall penalties for the following months. If City were benefiting from decisions the same way Liverpool are, you can bet your bottom dollar the Scouse mafia in the media would be all over it. I’ll be watching MNF tonight with bated breath…

 

[PickledRed]

What has that got to do with the fact that you received favourable/wrong decisions yesterday?

It indicates there’s not some anti-Everton plot designed to persecute the club. Which is a strong vibe I’m getting from blues today.

 

[SilentWitness]

It indicates there’s not some anti-Everton plot designed to persecute the club. Which is a strong vibe I’m getting from blues today.

I haven't once said that there is an anti-Everton plot. I have only brought up the game against City and the game yesterday. After the City game we received an official apology from Mike Reily and the majority of people in the footballing world think that decisions yesterday were favourable for your lot. The reason we are bitter about that is because we aren't just mid table, we're looking likely to go down and any points we can get right now are vital.

 

[PickledRed]

Astounding.

How do this lot continually get away with shambolic, cowardly refereeing?

And how come the football media at large appear to have no desire to highlight it? A few high-profile discussions around it and it’s eradicated within a week alá how Klopp - overnight - ensured we were denied stone-wall penalties for the following months. If City were benefiting from decisions the same way Liverpool are, you can bet your bottom dollar the Scouse mafia in the media would be all over it. I’ll be watching MNF tonight with bated breath…

Did you watch City at Goodison?

Aside from that incident yesterday, there’s this very strange narrative emerging that Liverpool benefit from refs and are accomplishing success because of referees. You’d almost think decisions that go against Liverpool are always correct and without doubt.

If somebody could direct me to the VAR data that supports this theory I’d love to see it. Right now it just reads like one-eyed sour grapes.

 

[PickledRed]

I haven't once said that there is an anti-Everton plot. I have only brought up the game against City and the game yesterday. After the City game we received an official apology from Mike Reily and the majority of people in the footballing world think that decisions yesterday were favourable for your lot. The reason we are bitter about that is because we aren't just mid table, we're looking likely to go down and any points we can get right now are vital.

The City one was an astoundingly poor use of VAR. It was clear and obvious. The official apology reflected this.

Yesterday’s non-penalty was harsh on Everton but the threshold for clear and obvious wasn’t met. They did ultra-slow motion on MOTD last night and they suggested it probably wasn’t a pen. You may disagree with that, you might want to call the pundits idiots, but it indicates ambiguity. It’s why VAR couldn’t overturn the decision. Liverpool had a similar scenario at Spurs in December. It’s the system that all clubs are subject to.

 

[kouroux]

So just to confirm, you believe the Premier League has actively told its referees not to give decisions against Liverpool to aid them in the title race? Do you also think they told refs to give decisions against City when they were up 11 points earlier in the season then?

Or maybe, just a wild thought, Stuart Atwell is just a completely incompetent referee who shit his pants after the Matip push yesterday and didn't blow his whistle as a result. But even then, if it was that obvious a foul, VAR would or should have intervened.

It was an obvious foul of course. Anyone who's ever played football knows that a push, even so slight when you run at full speed plays a major ik you losing your balance.

I don't know if they actively told the refs to do it but it is very clear that a tight title race is what's best for the views

 

[SilentWitness]

The City one was an astoundingly poor use of VAR. It was clear and obvious. The official apology reflected this.

Yesterday’s non-penalty was harsh on Everton but the threshold for clear and obvious wasn’t met. They did ultra-slow motion on MOTD last night and they suggested it probably wasn’t a pen. You may disagree with that, you might want to call the pundits idiots, but it indicates ambiguity. It’s why VAR couldn’t overturn the decision. Liverpool had a similar scenario at Spurs in December. It’s the system that all clubs are subject to.

I've always disagreed with the 'clear and obvious' narrative when it comes to VAR.

 

[PickledRed]

I've always disagreed with the 'clear and obvious' narrative when it comes to VAR.

Fine but that’s how the system is utilised. That’s why VAR remained silent - not because it was Everton / Liverpool involved.

 

[kouroux]

Do you think this is a recent change or did ever United benefit from this under SAF?

I think it's been like this for a long time but it's worse since VAR has been implemented as we see some crazy decisions completely neglected when there is a good tool to correct it most of the time.
The 2 fouls on Gordon yesterday, they are obvious fouls. Does blood need to be slipped that ridiculous criterion to be in effect ?

 

[kouroux]

I've always disagreed with the 'clear and obvious' narrative when it comes to VAR.

It gives them a shield in case of controversies. It's an easy card to pull.

 

[RobinLFC]

It was an obvious foul of course. Anyone who's ever played football knows that a push, even so slight when you run at full speed plays a major ik you losing your balance.

I don't know if they actively told the refs to do it but it is very clear that a tight title race is what's best for the views

Didn't really answer my question which only required a yes/no answer...

I think it's been like this for a long time but it's worse since VAR has been implemented as we see some crazy decisions completely neglected when there is a good tool to correct it most of the time.
The 2 fouls on Gordon yesterday, they are obvious fouls. Does blood need to be slipped that ridiculous criterion to be in effect ?

The fact that I don't even know what the second foul is supposed to be kinda proves that it probably wasn't an obvious foul. Happy to stand corrected though.

 

[kouroux]

Didn't really answer my question which only required a yes/no answer...


The fact that I don't even know what the second foul is supposed to be kinda proves that it probably wasn't an obvious foul. Happy to stand corrected though.

Yeah, I chose to ignore it on purpose because it's pointless as far as I am concerned. I'm just going by what I've seen this season, it's not exclusive to Liverpool of course being helped out by refs. This season though, I haven't seen a team get more help than Liverpool, that's my assessment. Game changing decisions regularly going in favor of the same team.

 

[Gio]

So why didn’t VAR overturn?

They’ve literally slowed it down on MOTD and suggested it’s borderline. Agree or disagree with that, but it’s obviously not cut and dry.

The definition of unclear and unobvious.

On the balance I'd have given a penalty, but it's not clear cut. You cannot simply cut across the defender and collapse under the contact you've engineered, especially when you are not taking a straight path towards the ball. With that in mind, I don't think Matip standing on Gordon's foot is a penalty in itself. However, the shoulder-to-shoulder that turns into a push in the back is where Matip loses his argument. As soon as you're behind the attacker and you make enough contact to impede, you've basically fecked it - see the Cresswell red card a couple of weeks ago for West Ham.

The earlier push by Trent on Gordon's back in a similar position was similar but more clear cut because he took a straight line.

 

[WeePat]

He is the best attacking full-back in the world by a country mile.

He has 60 assists and 11 goals in 212 games from right back. He is currently the top assister in the Premier League.

Overrated he is not.

Salah 13
Trent 12
Robertson 10
Mount 9
Pogba 9


That's the current top 5 in assists.

 

[Klopper76]

I'm not one of those fans that absolutely detests Liverpool / can't see that they are the best or at least the 2nd best side in the world currently but I do think you're given that leniancy that other clubs aren't. It's part of being one of the top clubs in the league unfortunately.

This only relates to penalties and VAR but we’re even on that front. I think this is since VAR began being applied.

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Obviously doesn’t include other incidents like potential red cards, offside calls etc.

 

[Firmino’s teeth]

This only relates to penalties and VAR but we’re even on that front. I think this is since VAR began being applied.
Obviously doesn’t include other incidents like potential red cards, offside calls etc.

Let’s not forget Pickford’s season ending tackle on VVD. He should’ve seen red and didn’t.

 

[Sylar]

Matip would have been sent off right? Cos he didnt actually actively go for the ball, thus denying goal scoring opportunity so double jeopardy doent apply?
But lets say its not, a penalty at 0-0 would have frustrated Liverpool more. Everton would have defo crowded their box more. It would have certainly been a bigger test for Liverpool and not foregone they go on to win that game having turned it around.

They werent put in that situation however.

 

[acnumber9]

This only relates to penalties and VAR but we’re even on that front. I think this is since VAR began being applied.

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Obviously doesn’t include other incidents like potential red cards, offside calls etc.

It also ignores the fact VAR decisions in favour are actually refs making an initial wrong decision and not giving the decision they should’ve in the first place.

 

[Klopper76]

Matip would have been sent off right? Cos he didnt actually actively go for the ball, thus denying goal scoring opportunity so double jeopardy doent apply?
But lets say its not, a penalty at 0-0 would have frustrated Liverpool more. Everton would have defo crowded their box more. It would have certainly been a bigger test for Liverpool and not foregone they go on to win that game having turned it around.

They werent put in that situation however.

No, that's not a goal scoring opportunity. Gordon's running towards the line not Alisson's goal.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

He did.

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Clear pen and red. Astounding refereeing.