Protests following the killing of George Floyd

jungledrums said:
I don’t get that sense from him at all, even though I think he’s simplifying the matter. He seems like a curious guy trying to make sense of all this. Do you actually get the sense he’s trolling?
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There is nothing curious about him, you noticed that he is clinging on the Dallas example that "confirms" his opinion, while totally ignoring the fact that african americans are 2.5 times more likely to be killed by the police and that within the long history of police brutality in the US, brutality aimed at minorities and specifically african americans is well documented. Someone curious would have not only discovered these things by himself with a quick google query or he would have been led to it by the many posts that answered his initial post. But he did none of these things.
 
hmchan said:
I've got to admit I don't know very much about the Floyd arrest. I only understand that he was arrested for using a counterfeit bill and knelt to death despite he was subdued, as shown from the footage. I'm unaware of any history of Chauvin being a racist, nor he had racially discriminated Floyd during the murder. So maybe you could fill the gap in for me and convince me in the other way, how this case is linked to racism more than police brutality except that the victim happens to be a black man?

As for policing in the US, I'm aware that black Americans are 2.5x more likely to be killed by cops than white Americans, and I've explained this phenomenon in my previous posts already. Meanwhile, black people are also treated unfairly by the cops in many ways, for example they are more frequently pulled over and searched, they are treated less respectfully etc. These are classic examples of racism, not the death of Floyd with all due respect.
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Why do people post such garbage? Don't know about very much about his arrest but enough to know it's not racism. Mmk. I know you are patting yourself on the back thinking you made a nuanced argument but you didn't. You just used an old and unprovable counterpoint in an effort to play devil's advocate and sound more informed than everyone else, but you failed.

Usually, I would explain to someone in as much detail as possible that there is so much literature about the privatization of prisons, which leads to mass incarceration for profit, which leads to lobbyists getting laws passed that target minority communities in order to source prisons, which leads to police using military-style weapons and tactics to "police" low-income minority communities.

But feck that. My job is not to inform those who wish to stick their head in the sand in an attempt to sound smarter than the crowd. The information and literature are out there in abundance (The New Jim Crow, Just Mercy, etc). The onus is on you to inform yourself and not post utter crap like the above.
 
Withnail said:
I wouldn't bother engaging in that derailment any further.

This just seems like wilful ignorance or trolling at this stage.
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RedDevil@84 said:
Seems to be flirting with the line of "thread-ban"
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Just to highlight, these sorts of posts are what I and other refer to when we talk about echo chambers and shutdown of discussion.

I dont agree with @hmchan but he is expressing his viewpoint and trying to discuss it fairly constructively, moreso than some of those replying to him.
 
Just draw a line under it.
 
hmchan said:
The society including the media creates an image that black people present with more threat. We internalize these ideas passively and they root deep down in our heart. This doesn't necessarily make us a racist, we may still make friends and get along with black people. However, under certain circumstances (e.g. when we face a danger), this bias may affect our decisions in that split second and cause the officers to overreact.

In the social experiment from the episode I mentioned, subjects were given a fake gun. They were asked to shoot at those who carried a gun, and hold their fire to those who carried a phone. In the last round of the experiment, a black guy they knew and a white guy popped up together, both carring a phone. It turned out most of the participants took the shot against the black guy, who was a friend of theirs. This didn't only apply to white partcipants, but also black, Hispanic and Asian.
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What do you think a lifetime of "internalizing, deeply rooted ideas" of implicit bias based on stereotypes leads to ? There's a word for it.
 
JPRouve said:
There is nothing curious about him, you noticed that he is clinging on the Dallas example that "confirms" his opinion, while totally ignoring the fact that african americans are 2.5 times more likely to be killed by the police and that within the long history of police brutality in the US, brutality aimed at minorities and specifically african americans is well documented. Someone curious would have not only discovered these things by himself with a quick google query or he would have been led to it by the many posts that answered his initial post. But he did none of these things.
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Refer to #3427 please.
 
Walrus said:
Just to highlight, these sorts of posts are what I and other refer to when we talk about echo chambers and shutdown of discussion.

I dont agree with @hmchan but he is expressing his viewpoint and trying to discuss it fairly constructively, moreso than some of those replying to him.
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The people self-modding can obviously piss off, but I don't know what you expect tbh when someone comes into a thread on p87, admits they 'don't know very much' about the subject, then still make a massive judgement call, ie there was no racism involved. People's courtesy only extends so far.
 
Jippy said:
The people self-modding can obviously piss off, but I don't know what you expect tbh when someone comes into a thread on p87, admits they 'don't know very much' about the subject, then still make a massive judgement call, ie there was no racism involved. People's courtesy only extends so far.
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Maybe my irony isn't obvious enough to spot? As far as I see, you guys just know as much as I do about the subject, and no one could convince me with evidence that this case is somehow linked to racism more than police brutality except that the victim happens to be a black man.
 
Raoul said:
What do you think a lifetime of "internalizing, deeply rooted ideas" of implicit bias based on stereotypes leads to ? There's a word for it.
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In the next sentence he says
hmchan said:
This doesn't necessarily make us a racist
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Not sure if this is willful ignorance or an attempt to find an imaginary silver lining, but what he just admitted in that first sentence is society is racist. And if that's the case that means a) a group is benefitting and b) a group is suffering. Whatever convoluted point he's trying to make after that is irrelevant.
 
MackRobinson said:
In the next sentence he says

Not sure if this is willful ignorance or an attempt to find an imaginary silver lining, but what he just admitted in that first sentence is society is racist. And if that's the case that means a) a group is benefitting and b) a group is suffering. Whatever convoluted point he's trying to make after that is irrelevant.
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The entire post seems self-contradictory.
 
hmchan said:
Maybe my irony isn't obvious enough to spot? As far as I see, you guys just know as much as I do about the subject, and no one could convince me with evidence that this case is somehow linked to racism more than police brutality except that the victim happens to be a black man.
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What do you expect to see, Chauvin with swastika tats or sieg heiling?
 
hmchan said:
Maybe my irony isn't obvious enough to spot? As far as I see, you guys just know as much as I do about the subject, and no one could convince me with evidence that this case is somehow linked to racism more than police brutality except that the victim happens to be a black man.
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Your understanding of irony is on a par with your comprehension of racism.
 
hmchan said:
Maybe my irony isn't obvious enough to spot? As far as I see, you guys just know as much as I do about the subject, and no one could convince me with evidence that this case is somehow linked to racism more than police brutality except that the victim happens to be a black man.
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But you clearly don't know as much since you keep ignoring the key point which is that the link to racism is through the prism of systemic racism which lead to police brutality being more frequent against minorities and in particular African Americans. It's a fairly simple notion that you clearly don't understand since you claimed several times that these are two separate issues when they are not. Try to understand what systemic racism is and how it affects people then you will understand where the link is, instead of trying to determine whether George Floyd death was a consciously motivated hate crime.
 
hmchan said:
Maybe my irony isn't obvious enough to spot? As far as I see, you guys just know as much as I do about the subject, and no one could convince me with evidence that this case is somehow linked to racism more than police brutality except that the victim happens to be a black man.
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No one can get into that particular cop's head and definitely say it was racism or not. You have to look at the pattern, the pattern in this case is the excessive and disproportionate police brutality towards black people. This particular incident fits that pattern. And this entire protest is not just because of this particular incident but because of that pattern which has been increasing in frequency.
 
hmchan said:
Maybe my irony isn't obvious enough to spot? As far as I see, you guys just know as much as I do about the subject, and no one could convince me with evidence that this case is somehow linked to racism more than police brutality except that the victim happens to be a black man.
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Perhaps you really don't understand the reflection of Racism in the Police Brutality displayed in George Floyds killing but for Black Americans the history doesn't just go all the way back to Rodney King but even further to the historic narrative of early policing in southern states with Slave Patrols and on to the laws describing where Black people could go, when and how proscribed by Jim Crow Laws and when Black people attempted to stand up for themselves weren't protected by the authorities, such as they were when attacked by the mob. The institutional racism embed in policing has its roots from 400 years of White Supremacist ideology which now persecutes against all people of colour.

Comparing Police Brutality against a person of colour with that of Police Brutality against a White person doesn't come with the history and everyday abuses against people of colour.
 
hmchan said:
Maybe my irony isn't obvious enough to spot? As far as I see, you guys just know as much as I do about the subject, and no one could convince me with evidence that this case is somehow linked to racism more than police brutality except that the victim happens to be a black man.
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When was the last time a white man was murdered by an African American cop by kneeling on him? When has been so many innocent white Americans being killed by African American cops? When has it been that African American DAs refused to charge regularly African American cops when they kill innocent white Americans?
 
If only all racist cops were as kind as Mark Fuhrman was and made tapes of their racism. Then we wouldn't have to guess what motivated them.
 
hmchan said:
Excessive force used against an unarmed/subdued person - classic example of police brutality. Same applies to the white man Tony Timpa in Dallas.
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It isn't really a position of case comparison or whataboutery in this example though for George Floyd. He was racially profiled and the actions of the officer was motivated by race, not by the forged note. The police brutality is simply an output of the decisions made prior.

No idea how you got promoted.
 
London. Cant help but think this will exacerbate the covid19 issue.



 
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@hmchan do you agree that police brutality in the US is more commonly directed at black people? do you agree that the police are more lenient with whites than blacks? do you agree that their tendency in any given situation is to assume that the black person(s) involved are in the wrong?

In many circumstances I would agree that the issue shouldnt be restricted to a single race or denomination. This isnt one of those circumstances. It has been very clear that in the US, police appear to be far more aggressive and use far more (i.e. excessive) force dealing with blacks than with whites.
 


A blunt and eye-opening reminder that in spite of what many like to believe Britain's problems with racism are as bad as anywhere else.
 
Pexbo said:
Don‘t do that
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BD said:
He's some wanker. (Corden that is)
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Grinner said:
I couldn't get more than 3 seconds in. The hate is too strong.
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BD said:
I didn't even start watching it to be honest.
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Every Tom Dick and Harry is cashing in on this by appropriating some ‘Kool aid’. Question is what happens to them next.

Are white people like James Corden really willing to give up their white privilege? Because without it, they don’t have the opportunity or career they enjoyed so far. That will be the test.
 
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Interesting to see that now alongside the religious leaders condemning Trump, the US Defense Secretary has come out opposing any move to send in troops. Seems like Trumps support is seeping away and all he will be left with soon are the MAGA vigilantes.
 
P-Ro said:
Why does everyone need to add the caveat 'I support their cause' before meekly saying something along the lines of this protest in London is a tad daft. Those attending these protests are arrogant arseholes. They aren't helping to save black lives in the US, the UK or any country. They will be responsible for the deaths of many in their communities.
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I agree with Piers *shudders*

The difference between this and let's say 5g is that this is legitimate grievance but yes they're all risking infection. However, I can't blame people for having enough on this issue and going out. People have already undermined the lockdown for frivellous things.
 
sammsky1 said:
London. Cant help but think this will exacerbate the covid19 issue.



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Can we forget about fecking covid19 for once?

Clearly this is bigger than that. Clearly the people involved have decided systemic racism is more of a threat than a virus and don't give a shit about the virus either.

Keep one out of the other.

If people are gonna mention the virus then raid against Cummings and raid against all the twats on the beaches having barbeques and in parks and everywhere else openly flouting it like the virus doesn't exist. Have a go at all those lining up at Ikea and queuing at Maccies not giving a feck about the virus. Not these people protesting a legitimate issue.
 
sammsky1 said:
Every Tom Dick and Harry is cashing in on this by appropriating some ‘Kool aid’. Question is what happens to them next.

Are white people like James Corden really willing to give yo their white privilege? Because without it, they don’t have the opportunity or cared they enjoyed so far.

That will be the test.
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What's he supposed to do though? I'm being serious here, what do you think someone like Corden should do to prove he's sincere about what he says? Personally I believe most celebs are just jumping on the bandwagon and couldn't give two shits about George Floyd, the protests and police brutality towards African-American population, but let's pretend Corden genuinely does. What would be the right course of action for someone like him? Donate his fortune to NAACP, move to a studio in a crappy neighborhood and go to work at McDonalds?
 
In a dark way, I find it hilarious when people feel the need to pose as a member of the opposing side of an argument only to wreak havoc and do things they know the opposing side would never do, in an effort to discredit them. Once you've crossed that line, you've essentially admitted that you have no valid counterarguments.
 
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