Raith Rovers Controversy

[Doracle]

Thank god we have legal experts in sexual assault cases to guide us on the Caf.


This wilfully overlooks how poorly the justice system has served victims of rape though. Only 1.6% of recorded rapes result in a charge, which is among the lowest in the western world.
Several judges did deem him a rapist.

Mock me if you wish Jippy but I studied this area of law at university and, as I’ve said above, I spent some time looking into it again at the time of the Evans case. I don’t in any way say I have all the answers here (it’s a very difficult area that the courts have limited guidance on) but I’d be fairly confident that I’m at least as knowledgeable as anyone else on this thread.

I agree with you that there should be an overall overhaul of the rape laws. The process generally does not find justice for women. However, that doesn’t mean we can’t question potentially bad decisions the other way.

 

[Jippy]

Mock me if you wish Jippy but I studied this area of law at university and, as I’ve said above, I spent some time looking into it again at the time of the Evans case. I don’t in any way say I have all the answers here (it’s a very difficult area that the courts have limited guidance on) but I’d be fairly confident that I’m at least as knowledgeable as anyone else on this thread.

I agree with you that there should be an overall overhaul of the rape laws. The process generally does not find justice for women. However, that doesn’t mean we can’t question potentially bad decisions the other way.

I agree with that. Obviously we all know the he said/she said barrier is all too often difficult to surmount and this is very hard to rectify.

I don't know how much you've looked into these cases or what you've studied tbf - just always sceptical after all the South American linguistics experts popped around negrito, immunologist around Covid etc and other instances requiring specialist knowledge.

I guess a final take would be my view is admittedly clouded by the guy's apparent odiousness, the club's abysmal handling of the whole thing and a general distaste for scummy individuals being in privileged positions where they'll be idolised by kids as role models.

 

[MayosNoun]

My friend who lives up that way advised me this has cost his club just short of 220k should he have the full wages paid off. A huge amount for a club like Raith.

 

[Doracle]

I agree with that. Obviously we all know the he said/she said barrier is all too often difficult to surmount and this is very hard to rectify.

I don't know how much you've looked into these cases or what you've studied tbf - just always sceptical after all the South American linguistics experts popped around negrito, immunologist around Covid etc and other instances requiring specialist knowledge.

I guess a final take would be my view is admittedly clouded by the guy's apparent odiousness, the club's abysmal handling of the whole thing and a general distaste for scummy individuals being in privileged positions where they'll be idolised by kids as role models.

Yeah, don’t really disagree with any of that. My view is also influenced by the fact I think the civil decision feels very borderline. There’s no way he’d have been found guilty to the criminal threshold (which of course is why it was never taken to trial).

If it were a more clear-cut case, I’d have less difficulty with the outcome. Also agree that Raith didn’t help the situation at all - focussing on his footballing ability was plain stupid.

 

[Foxbatt]

So Willie has been found guilty of raping a woman in a civil case? Why isn't he charged criminally?

 

[Reapersoul20]

So Willie has been found guilty of raping a woman in a civil case? Why isn't he charged criminally?

Not enough evidence to charge him.

 

[ThehatchetMan]

Unpopular opinion time but personally I think he should have been given the opportunity to represent Raith and the chance to prove himself and his character. Not a fan of this trial by social media malarkey. Where's the evidence which shows punishing people and continually knocking them down helps with any form of rehabilitation, it just causes further resentment. There's a reason why countries like Norway have a much lower reoffending rate than UK.

As for his rape, wasn't this convicted through a civil courtcase rather than a criminal one?

I'm not in any way trying to justify or excuse rape, but I don't see how continually punishing people will ever solve the issue. I also don't particularly agree with the general perception of how the public judge certain crimes compared to others. Like look at people like Joey Barton, Nile Ranger, the goalkeeper who murdered a child etc.. And they are allowed to continue their careers and are judged differently despite maybe showing less remorse than someone who has committed rape?

Same goes for the public perception of crimes in general. There are some very wealthy people regularly committing fraud in the millions which indirectly impacts alot more lives but they don't get judged or labelled the same way, and I wouldn't put it past alot of these wealthy people to have committed worse crimes but paid off the victims. Cristiano Ronaldo is another who comes to mind with the rape claims against him and if he did pay of the victim. But yet he's still paraded as a hero.

 

[UncleBob]

It's a bit more difficult given that there's not enough evidence but he's lost a civil case on the probability of the story.

A friend of the family got convicted of a murder in the 90’s,then appealed and won, they did however decide that he should pay compensation to the family on the basis of probability that he did it, just not strong enough evidence to convict him of the murder and send him to prison. Only last year did the cold case group discover DNA evidence from another suspect in the case. The compensation that had to be paid has been hanging over him as a guilty verdict for over 20 years.

 

[ThehatchetMan]

David Martindale is a good person to compare him too. Look at how he is lauded and paraded as a reformed character despite his crimes indirectly impacting alot more people and probably leading to deaths.

 

[SilentWitness]

David Martindale is a good person to compare him too. Look at how he is lauded and paraded as a reformed character despite his crimes indirectly impacting alot more people and probably leading to deaths.

Currently, I don't think he's a good person to compare him to at all. Martindale has been open and honest about what he did, accepts his guilt, his punishment and any future implications for himself. In the case of Martindale, Livingston also came under criticism when they initially employed him as a coach.

 

[MayosNoun]

Currently, I don't think he's a good person to compare him to at all. Martindale has been open and honest about what he did, accepts his guilt, his punishment and any future implications for himself. In the case of Martindale, Livingston also came under criticism when they initially employed him as a coach.

I could not agree more.

I listened to Martindale on a podcast and there is no-one more critical of his life choices than he is. What he has done is accept his past and use it as a platform to rehabilitate and work his arse off to get where he is.

He’s very open and honest about his life and has done a lot of community based work I believe to support youth justice around Livingston.

There’s no excuses for what he done but he certainly doesn’t make them either. People like Goodwillie, Mendy and probably Greenwood, will fight against their victims and use their lawyers to get out of it.

 

[Dargonk]

Seems like the club has finally been pressured into acting. Though sadly the damage is already done. Their statement and lack of initial action really tell us what sort of 'community' club they actually are. Hopefully they rethink things going forward and get more in touch with what their supporters attitudes.

 

[Spaghetti]

in this scenario the crime that was committed they have shown zero remorse for and it’s not a crime which someone commits by accident. You don’t accidentally rape someone. I don’t understand why someone as evil as that should be allowed the privilege of being a footballer or we as a society would want them in a position of power/as a role model in an environment of young men and women.

He says he didn’t do it, therefore has nothing to show remorse for. As far as I’m aware, he and his pal say the sex was consensual. The woman says she can’t remember but thinks she was too drunk for it to be consensual.

I wasn’t there, so I can’t judge. He has spent years trying to clear his name because he thinks he is innocent, so I don’t understand your anger about his lack of remorse.

 

[SilentWitness]

He says he didn’t do it, therefore has nothing to show remorse for. As far as I’m aware, he and his pal say the sex was consensual. The woman says she can’t remember but thinks she was too drunk for it to be consensual.

I wasn’t there, so I can’t judge. He has spent years trying to clear his name because he thinks he is innocent, so I don’t understand your anger about his lack of remorse.

that’s great but he was ruled as a rapist and his appeals rejected so even if he believes he isn’t he’s been ruled otherwise. He hasn’t even acknowledged that and apologised to the victim on the basis of these rulings. Perhaps he believes doing so would be an admission of guilt which is why he isn’t but it still shows a lack of awareness to me as to the impact of his actions on that evening. I do not believe and neither did the judge that the state the victim was in was capable of giving consent.

 

[Lay]

So does he go back to Clyde?

 

[Spaghetti]

that’s great but he was ruled as a rapist and his appeals rejected so even if he believes he isn’t he’s been ruled otherwise. He hasn’t even acknowledged that and apologised to the victim on the basis of these rulings. Perhaps he believes doing so would be an admission of guilt which is why he isn’t but it still shows a lack of awareness to me as to the impact of his actions on that evening. I do not believe and neither did the judge that the state the victim was in was capable of giving consent.

I wasn’t there so I don’t know. Just to get this clear - in order to have sex with someone, you have to ask them directly if they want to? Otherwise it’s rape? And if you are too drunk to remember what happened, then you can’t have given consent.

I’m not defending Goodwillie, just trying to understand the situation better.

 

[SilentWitness]

I wasn’t there so I don’t know. Just to get this clear - in order to have sex with someone, you have to ask them directly if they want to? Otherwise it’s rape? And if you are too drunk to remember what happened, then you can’t have given consent.

I’m not defending Goodwillie, just trying to understand the situation better.

The Sexual Offences Act 2003 says that someone consents to sexual activity if they:

• Agree by choice and
• Have both the freedom and capacity to make that choice.

If someone says ‘no’ to any kind of sexual activity, they are not agreeing to it.

But, if someone doesn't say ‘no’ out loud, that doesn’t automatically mean that they have agreed to it either.

If someone seems unsure, stays quiet, moves away or doesn’t respond, they are not agreeing to sexual activity.

In fact, it’s really common for people who have experienced sexual violence to find they are unable to move or speak.

Someone doesn’t have the freedom and capacity to agree to sexual activity by choice if:

• They are asleep or unconscious.
• They are drunk or ‘on’ drugs.
• They have been ‘spiked’.
• They are too young.
• They have a mental health disorder or illness that means they are unable to make a choice.
• They are being pressured, manipulated, tricked or scared into saying 'yes’.
• The other person is using physical force against them.

The bold parts are key in this case.

 

[Doracle]

I wasn’t there so I don’t know. Just to get this clear - in order to have sex with someone, you have to ask them directly if they want to? Otherwise it’s rape? And if you are too drunk to remember what happened, then you can’t have given consent.

I’m not defending Goodwillie, just trying to understand the situation better.

If a person is deemed too drunk to consent, then it doesn’t matter if they said yes. The relevant point is whether the other party should have been able to identify that they were too drunk to validly do so.

If someone has no memory of events (because they have a drunken blackout) then that doesn’t necessarily mean someone who had sex with them will be found to have raped them. It is possible for them to have still been capable of giving consent at the relevant time or that the other person might have had valid grounds for thinking they did so.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Seems like the club has finally been pressured into acting. Though sadly the damage is already done. Their statement and lack of initial action really tell us what sort of 'community' club they actually are. Hopefully they rethink things going forward and get more in touch with what their supporters attitudes.

Tbf unless you're a local you can't state whether or not they're still a community club, as whilst this entire situation has damaged them they're still the club that have invested in numerous local initiatives throughout the years and have been one of the constant sport clubs, alongside Fife Flyers, that have a dedicated following in the town.

 

[MayosNoun]

Generally I’m cautious about levelling someone a rapist, in particularly when both parties are drunk, they both go to a hotel and are seen all over each other before going to the hotel. How many people have had drunken one night stands? If the other party claimed rape because they had too much alcohol, then you’re in a lot of trouble.

Goodwillie is a different ball game though. This part of the initial reports is really telling for me. He clearly knew she was too drunk, promising people they were dropping her home.

“Goodwillie – who signed for Aberdeen in July – and Robertson took Denise from Chalmers nightclub in Bathgate in a taxi after promising concerned stewards they were taking her home.

Stewards say she was stumbling around with no shoes, had lost her coat and bag and was incoherent with her eyes “rolling about in her head”. Tests showed an almost fatal level of alcohol in her system.”

 

[Spaghetti]

The bold parts are key in this case.

Thanks for the information. It probably makes a high percentage of sex possible cases of rape then, doesn’t it?

 

[Spaghetti]

If a person is deemed too drunk to consent, then it doesn’t matter if they said yes. The relevant point is whether the other party should have been able to identify that they were too drunk to validly do so.

If someone has no memory of events (because they have a drunken blackout) then that doesn’t necessarily mean someone who had sex with them will be found to have raped them. It is possible for them to have still been capable of giving consent at the relevant time or that the other person might have had valid grounds for thinking they did so.

If they’ve gone back from a New Year’s Eve party for a threesome, they were probably all pretty drunk.

 

[GDaly95]

So does he go back to Clyde?

I'd say people will kick off in similar fashion if he goes back to Clyde despite having been there before this.

He's probably goosed now.

 

[Doracle]

Thanks for the information. It probably makes a high percentage of sex possible cases of rape then, doesn’t it?

The wording of that explanation is wrong. Someone being merely drunk does not lose the ability to consent. There’s no established legal definition (deliberately) but in layman terms they have to be so off their face wasted that they don’t have a clue what they are doing and have lost all ability to make decisions. The fact that what sounds like an official site has such a vague and unsatisfactory explanation probably emphasises what a difficult issue it is.

 

[SilentWitness]

The wording of that explanation is wrong. Someone being merely drunk does not lose the ability to consent. There’s no established legal definition (deliberately) but in layman terms they have to be so off their face wasted that they don’t have a clue what they are doing and have lost all ability to make decisions. The fact that what sounds like an official site has such a vague and unsatisfactory explanation probably emphasises what a difficult issue it is.

https://rapecrisis.org.uk/

 

[Doracle]

https://rapecrisis.org.uk/

Makes sense - they aren’t going to want to overcomplicate it. Speak to women first who think they might have been raped, rather than putting them off with legal speak.

 

[Dargonk]

Tbf unless you're a local you can't state whether or not they're still a community club, as whilst this entire situation has damaged them they're still the club that have invested in numerous local initiatives throughout the years and have been one of the constant sport clubs, alongside Fife Flyers, that have a dedicated following in the town.

True, though I was more basing my comments on the comments that came out from the community at the time.

 

[EtH]

This is a very ironic thread. And that has nothing to do with the young guy we’re not supposed to mention.

 

[MayosNoun]

This is a very ironic thread. And that has nothing to do with the young guy we’re not supposed to mention.

https://www.itv.com/news/utv/2022-0...footballer-charged-with-nightclub-sex-assault

Another one.

 

[TMDaines]

Great from Daniel Taylor, asking the more difficult bigger picture questions on these issues:

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Lay]

Gone back to Clyde on loan

 

[GDaly95]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Bit of a weird situation. He played for them previously and no one seemed to care, will they care now?

 

[GDaly95]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Dobba]

Since he's gone back to Clyde, their Ladies side have gone on strike and the council who own the stadium have banned him from entering it.

What a signing.

 

[WeePat]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

What?

 

[Doracle]

Since he's gone back to Clyde, their Ladies side have gone on strike and the council who own the stadium have banned him from entering it.

What a signing.

Had they not noticed that he was their club captain beforehand, during the 5 years he played there?

Also, whilst this is a serious subject, that Sky “apology” is pretty funny.

 

[SalfordRed18]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Oranges038]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Because being a racist might actually be worse than being a rapist.

 

[SilentWitness]

Had they not noticed that he was their club captain beforehand, during the 5 years he played there?

Also, whilst this is a serious subject, that Sky “apology” is pretty funny.

Maybe they were afraid of what would have happened if they spoke up or went on strike. Maybe they didn’t feel like they would be supported.

 

[adexkola]

Had they not noticed that he was their club captain beforehand, during the 5 years he played there?

Also, whilst this is a serious subject, that Sky “apology” is pretty funny.

Who said there had to be any logical consistency on this subject?