Ralf’s 4-2-2-2

[talking robot]

Don't think so, we need someone with a good hold-up ability to play with Ronaldo.

yeah thats a fair point

 

[Sultan]

But remember we looked awful in the previous system all season.

True. There are other systems he could implement besides the one used by Ole. There are many other ways to win games and teams have been successful. Let's not get fixated on a single strategy.

My reasoning is the fixture list is too crowded for the press to be practised and perfected and most importantly the need for the right personnel. If this is going to be our philosophy and the process going forward Ralf should be given more time or another future coach needs to be on the same wavelength.

 

[Lewnited]

Do you realize that your stats came from a very small sample? And even that small period is probably one of his best purple patch if not the best in term of stats. Do you actually believe yourself that Pogba completed pressure stats or whatever that will be sustainable in long term?

Do you even watch how the guy plays in general for us the past 5 seasons? There is no denying with his talents. But passing forward is only one thing that he has while he lacks everything in that 10 position RR wants them to play. Do you see him running up and down trying to track their FB outside or DM inside the whole game?

IF RR demands more intensity from the likes of Bruno, Pogba would have no chance to fit in or do well in it.

Of course Pogba's stats would be different to usual in that role, he's been deployed as the deepest midfielder for 70% of his time here. Ultimately you're still missing the crux of my point, which is that however good or bad Pogba would be in that role, out of all the possible candidates, I still think Bruno is the least suited out of all of them. He's not once in his career demonstrated the athleticism needed to make any kind of impact from that role.

I'd go as far as saying playing him there and expecting him to just do 'Bruno things' is as silly as us playing Pogba as a #6 over the years and expecting him to just do 'Pogba things'. But if you've honestly watched Bruno for the last few years and think he'll thrive in that role, then enjoy the next few games I guess.

 

[Sultan]

Could Bruno not play as one of the front 2 as a partner to Ronaldo?

Bruno should be in and around the box in any system. He's just too good in the centre to be taking care of full-backs.

 

[::sonny::]

I liked the team more under Carrick

 

[gerdm07]

I prefer symmetry with any formation. However, I guess with proper direction you can have symmetry with the 4-2-2-2 depending where the ball is.

On offense is it supposed to look like something like below (F forward, A attacking mid, M defensive mid, D defender)? This forms natural triangles and keeps things compact to press if the ball is lost.

.......F.........F
Do......A.......A
.......M......M
...D.......D........D


......F.......F
D........A.......A
.....Mo.....M
.D........D........D


......F.......Fo......A
..........M.......A.........D
..D...........M
............D........D


..................F.......F
......................A.........A
..D...........M.........M......D
............D........Do

On Defense:

...............F.......F.
..................A.......A.......o
............M........M........D
........D........D........D


.................F..........F.........o
.......................A.......A
...............M.........M.......D
...........D........D........D

My concerns are

- It gets confusing as the ball is played around when on defense. I tried other scenarios and couldn't come up with logical setups.
- The As and Ms have to cover a lot of ground as they will be required to be on the touchline sometimes on offense and defense.
- The switch is always on and against good teams that will cause problems

 

[Oranges038]

Yesterday, it looked and played a hell of a lot like Ole's 424. Lot's of space out wide fot opposition to build attacks and seemed a bit too easy for Norwich to find space to in the final third.

I know these things take time to bed in, but having 2 in midfield is a bad idea and when those two are Fred and McTominay then it's an even worse idea.

 

[Sandikan]

This system will put a lot of reliance on the full backs, which when we're operating with the reserve full backs at the moment is optimistic for starters.
Then the 2 Number 10s, if you will, have to be very smart to know what areas of the pitch to cover.

Still, it was never going to be a perfect system installed after a week!

 

[Crashoutcassius]

People need to remember RR hasn't managed a team like United, where your opposition rarely cares if they win the game, and certainly don't mind letting you have the ball. He will face the same challenges the last few managers have, teams will line up to stop us and let us have the ball. His main strategy is the press and, similar to ole, his main attacking plan is to counter in a couple of passes, where width etc doesn't matter.

There will be games where it will work, but plenty where it isn't allowed to work, and the focus will be back on how our players can break down 2 banks of 4 who hoof the ball when they get it and don't tap it around the back

 

[captaincantona]

People need to remember RR hasn't managed a team like United, where your opposition rarely cares if they win the game, and certainly don't mind letting you have the ball. He will face the same challenges the last few managers have, teams will line up to stop us and let us have the ball. His main strategy is the press and, similar to ole, his main attacking plan is to counter in a couple of passes, where width etc doesn't matter.

There will be games where it will work, but plenty where it isn't allowed to work, and the focus will be back on how our players can break down 2 banks of 4 who hoof the ball when they get it and don't tap it around the back

I mean this with no disrespect...have you seen us play at all recently. The problem is almost entirely the opposite of what you described. Teams are no longer afraid to pressure us and often have similar levels of possession both home and away. They do not give us the ball and feel comfortable going toe to toe with us. Norwich were better than us. They had more endeavour, moved the ball quicker and looked the better football team. No “hoofing” to be seen...and they are quite clearly the worst team in the league.

 

[Hammondo]

People need to remember RR hasn't managed a team like United, where your opposition rarely cares if they win the game, and certainly don't mind letting you have the ball. He will face the same challenges the last few managers have, teams will line up to stop us and let us have the ball. His main strategy is the press and, similar to ole, his main attacking plan is to counter in a couple of passes, where width etc doesn't matter.

There will be games where it will work, but plenty where it isn't allowed to work, and the focus will be back on how our players can break down 2 banks of 4 who hoof the ball when they get it and don't tap it around the back

I have not seen a team scared of us in this way, in years. Every team looks like they think they will beat us and are better footballers.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

I mean this with no disrespect...have you seen us play at all recently. The problem is almost entirely the opposite of what you described. Teams are no longer afraid to pressure us and often have similar levels of possession both home and away. They do not give us the ball and feel comfortable going toe to toe with us. Norwich were better than us. They had more endeavour, moved the ball quicker and looked the better football team. No “hoofing” to be seen...and they are quite clearly the worst team in the league.

Just making a point that, if teams let ole counter them we would have won a lot more games. Ralf is used to coaching relative underdogs through his career. He will have to face lower blocks like he did Vs palace. He will face the same challenges ole did, and mourinho before that.

A general comment in response to some of the tactical talk here.

I agree re Norwich, just a wierdly terrible performance when you'd usually expect a team to be having a new manager bounce. Who knows.

 

[stefan92]

Ralf is used to coaching relative underdogs through his career.

Wrong.

Every team he managed in the second Bundesliga was steamrolling the league and played absolutely dominant. No big teams, as they were in second division, but in that context definitely no underdogs (except maybe Ulm, but Hannover and Leipzig were strong teams in that context).

Schalke and Leipzig were also top teams in the Bundesliga and CL regulars at the time he managed them.

The only real underdogs he managed were Hannover and Ulm after their promotions to first division.

 

[Waynne]

He looked genuinely pissed in the post match interview against Norwich.

I would be too if I had to witness Rashford, Bruno and Ronaldo ballsing up attacks in the final 3rd.

We had no control of this game against Norwich. No control at all. It could have easily been a win to them.

 

[RUCK4444]

He looked genuinely pissed in the post match interview against Norwich.

I would be too if I had to witness Rashford, Bruno and Ronaldo ballsing up attacks in the final 3rd.

We had no control of this game against Norwich. No control at all. It could have easily been a win to them.

He should be angry because that performance was dreadful, I hope he lights a fire under these players.

 

[caid]

Bruno should be in and around the box in any system. He's just too good in the centre to be taking care of full-backs.

I'd think of him and play him as a forward personally, thats basically what he's been playing for a while. I think he could readjust to a different role given time too though but the early goal returns might be a bit of millstone around his neck elsewhere.
Its probably the best position for about 5 players though. You want all of Ronaldo, Cavani and Greenwood in or around the box and Rashford on the shoulder of the last defender. Some of them are going to have to do a job in a deeper position.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

Telles can play RB

A left footer will always want to cut in. So in a system where the FB's are pretty much the only source of width, it wouldn't be smart to put a left footer at RB. Dalot can more than do the job and in my opinion is a better RB than AWB...

 

[Daengophile]

Not so sure, Rashford and Bruno do not look even slightly comfortable in this formation.

The only reason people like this formation is the same reason most football fans like things nowadays - it’s new.

New managers, new players, new tactics, new formations, new kits, new sponsors, etc.

One day the formation won’t be new and people will hate it.

Hopefully Ralf will be flexible with our set up as this isn’t going to get the best out of many of our attacking players.

It's not really that new and has been used successfully. And it's not as if umpteen other formations haven't been tried.

Sometimes I despair of modern day Footballers who struggle to adapt. Some of them can't even retain possession of the ball, kick passes to the opposition and fail to challenge for the ball.

If we can't get these basics right then no formation will work

 

[Blood Mage]

I have total faith that Ralf will turn us into ballers but I do wish he'd try a different formation. Manchester United should be stretching teams not playing this narrow. Why not a 343?

 

[Carolina Red]

I have total faith that Ralf will turn us into ballers but I do wish he'd try a different formation. Manchester United should be stretching teams not playing this narrow. Why not a 343?

I don’t really understand what stuff like this is supposed to mean.

Why? Because we did that 20 years ago?

 

[RedCurry]

I feel for this formation to work, a team needs a target man centre forward who can hold up the ball. This would allow the other attacking players and the full backs to go beyond him. Neither Rashford nor Ronaldo are any good at holding up the ball.

 

[Eli Zee]

Honestly, if we had a 2nd a really good striker to replace Rashford and someone for mctominay, this team is scary with a 4-2-2-2

 

[city-puma]

Or, 3-3-3-1,
CF
Rashford Fred Sancho
Shaw McT Dalot
Maguire Varane Lindelof

 

[MattJ166]

Or, 3-3-3-1,
CF
Rashford Fred Sancho
Shaw McT Dalot
Maguire Varane Lindelof

Yikes. That's a 5-0 hammering every game, for which team I'm not sure. At least it would be entertaining

 

[RedRonaldo]

Or, 3-3-3-1,
CF
Rashford Fred Sancho
Shaw McT Dalot
Maguire Varane Lindelof

It’s refreshing to see Fred, who can’t pass nor shoot, are in the no.10 role to replace Bruno.

 

[NewYorkRed]

Think the formation is fine, but would either like VDB starting instead of Scott against smaller teams, or Pogba playing instead of Rashford and Sancho playing in the front two with Ronaldo.

 

[UpWithRivers]

The problem is that we have players suited to a 4-3-3. Thats what we planed, bought for and played for the last 3 or more years. Rashford is not a 9 and not a right sided player. We have tried that and it failed. Bruno is a free roaming number 10 that plays risk football. Sancho is better on the RW and Ronaldo is not a pressing 10. Now the question is - can they adapt and how many of them can we carry. And by carry I dont mean someone is useless just not 100 percent effective in the formation.

Ronaldo is obviously the person we carry. Yeah he did well against Palace and he's not totally useless in the press but we will still have to put up with his limitations. Sancho looks like he has the attributes to play at 10 and can adapt. Then the question is what do we do with Bruno and Rashford? Do we just keep training, developing and pushing these players into their non natural positions? What happens in 6 months? Do we get another manager and go back to a 4--3-3? Funnily enough I think our marginalized players are better suited to this football - Pogba (ok not marginalized but wants out), DVB, Lingard and Martial seem a better fit. On paper to me the best is Pogba and Sancho behind Ronaldo or Martial with DVB and Sancho behind Ronaldo and Greenwood.

For me this is why United have failed for so many years. We buy good players but then we dont give them the platform to succeed. Liverpool and City etc get players that suit their system. Thats why Klopp and Guardiola took time to adapt. They had to move out the players that didnt work and bring in the players that did. So tough calls need to be made. Do we marginalize the players we loved like Bruno and Rashford in favor of the likes of Martial, Pogba, DVB, Lingard?

And these players will have good games. It will work with Rashford, Sancho and Bruno in the side side sometimes. Question is will it work week in week out against low block teams, against physical teams, against top teams etc or will it be world class against the likes of Leeds and Palace then struggle against a low block for example

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

The problem is that we have players suited to a 4-3-3. Thats what we planed, bought for and played for the last 3 or more years. Rashford is not a 9 and not a right sided player.

I agree with your general point about planning for another formation (although I think 4-2-3-1 more than 4-3-3) but if you put Rashford anywhere, he's not going to be great on current form. He's well capable of playing his current position of left-sided striker - it should be one of his favoured positions. He's just playing terribly.

 

[Bestietom]

yeah thats a fair point

Cavani.

 

[Bestietom]

Playing the 4-2-2-2 leaves big wide spaces on the wings for counter attacking sides.
I think the 3-5-2 or 3-4-1-2 would suit better.

 

[RoyH1]

I think we really should give his preferred system more time to develop and gel before we start to want to see him change it-

 

[largelyworried]

Playing the 4-2-2-2 leaves big wide spaces on the wings for counter attacking sides.
I think the 3-5-2 or 3-4-1-2 would suit better.

You don't sit in the middle of the park in a 4-2-2-2 formation. The whole point in having your players in a block is that you can move your players as a unit to wherever the ball is and counter press, which stops counterattacks as they form.

 

[Bestietom]

You don't sit in the middle of the park in a 4-2-2-2 formation. The whole point in having your players in a block is that you can move your players as a unit to wherever the ball is and counter press, which stops counterattacks as they form.

Well this is if and when it is played RIGHT. atm we are still trying to move away from the bad habits picked up since Fergie left. (Passing sideways and backwards.) I just think that a 3-5-2 or a 3-4-1-2 may suit us better at this particular time. We need points on the board.

 

[romufc]

Well this is if and when it is played RIGHT. atm we are still trying to move away from the bad habits picked up since Fergie left. (Passing sideways and backwards.) I just think that a 3-5-2 or a 3-4-1-2 may suit us better at this particular time. We need points on the board.

Whatever formation we play, if you don't play it right, we will be exposed. Its as simple as that really.

We can play a 3-5-2 and be pushed back and it looks like a 5-3-2 and the midfield is overrun.

Its about every player understanding their roles in the game. It doesn't help when all 4 of the forward line keep losing the ball. That has nothing to do with formation.

 

[Drizzle]

I'd think of him and play him as a forward personally, thats basically what he's been playing for a while.

Problem with Bruno is that he doesn't have many of the qualities of a true forward - pace, skill to get past a player, good in the air, good with his back to goal etc.

Nor does he have the qualities of a midfielder - retain possession, press-resistance, tackling, controlling games.

He thrives in one specific position - a number 10 role where he's the main creative outlet and he's given licence to gamble on quick through balls.

 

[largelyworried]

Well this is if and when it is played RIGHT. atm we are still trying to move away from the bad habits picked up since Fergie left. (Passing sideways and backwards.) I just think that a 3-5-2 or a 3-4-1-2 may suit us better at this particular time. We need points on the board.

Any formation played wrong doesn’t work.

 

[talking robot]

Cavani.

agreed. i was just thinking about when he's not available who the next best option there is.

 

[stevoc]

I have not seen a team scared of us in this way, in years. Every team looks like they think they will beat us and are better footballers.

Did we have problems breaking down teams who sat deep in a low block last season?

 

[stevoc]

I don’t really understand what stuff like this is supposed to mean.

Why? Because we did that 20 years ago?

Do any top teams in the year 2021 stretch opposition teams to create openeings?

Have you ever seen Man City do it?

 

[Hammondo]

Did we have problems breaking down teams who sat deep in a low block last season?

Yes. When opponents used it we struggled, but it didn't happen often.