Madrid are where they are because Nani was unjustly sent off. If the ref had done his job it's highly likely (admittedly not a certainty) that they wouldn't even have made the quarter-finals, never mind be playing tonight.
Realistically if we want to win the CL anytime soon..
- Thread starter Ronaldo's Mum Eh?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Dunno, I do rate Cabaye, I know he's 27/28 now but he looks the sort of player who could make the step up and play that sort of role, a bit like Arteta did for Arsenal. I haven't really seen Matic, I'd agree on Strootman though, I also think we could do a lot worse than Wanyama.
I've been burned by Hargreaves.
Celtic beat Barca at home, not Juve.
Hear hear.
On top of that, Dortmund having one is more than 'arguable'. We haven't played them once in the current era, so any comparison is conjecture for a start. They have a number of very good midfielders, whereas it's a problem area for us especially in terms of depth. But none of their CMs is Carrick's equal at the moment, for example. In fact, statistically none of them is even close.
And it always seems that way with young players because you only need to have had a couple of injuries for people to be able to say 'he picks one up every season'.
Remember less than a year ago when Cleverley was 'injury prone'. It's a label people are much too keen to throw around with too little evidence. At this point in time, injuries are not a good reason not to sign Wilshere.
How the feck could anyone not want Wilshere?
Madness.
They have a better midfield though.
I agree that we were the better team, but they have a better midfield. Modric who is a reserve there, would have been a sure starter for use.
They've lost away at Celtic, Milan and Bayern, and yet still people think we couldn't take them at Old Trafford.
As completely implausible as it may be, the thought of (a fit) Wilshere and Bale slotting into our side is mouth watering.
If Carrick was injured/suspended, who would replace him adequately?
Barca have Thiago, Cesc, Song who can come in for their trio, Real have plenty, Bayern have Gustavo, can drop Kroos deeper, Tymoschuk, Dortmund have Sahin and Kehl.
We are clearly far too reliant on one player in midfield and don't have someone to either replace him or a partner that can adjust his game to take over his role.
Bayern spent silly money on Martinez but given his age, potential and what he brings to the team, it will be worth it in the long run.
Barca have Thiago, Cesc, Song who can come in for their trio, Real have plenty, Bayern have Gustavo, can drop Kroos deeper, Tymoschuk, Dortmund have Sahin and Kehl.
We are clearly far too reliant on one player in midfield and don't have someone to either replace him or a partner that can adjust his game to take over his role.
Bayern spent silly money on Martinez but given his age, potential and what he brings to the team, it will be worth it in the long run.
Barring pretty big luck in the CL(which...well never happens for Utd)......that is the realistically, even if it's not all that realistic. Either than or spending £40m on two other foreign players, which again, isn't happening.
So "realistically"......actually getting good fortune in the CL for a change.
We do need some quality in midfield, as someone said, if Carrick were to be injured or suspended we'd be in bad shape, which is true. The fact that we are so reliant on one player is reason enough to bring someone in. If you look at our squad, we've got quality replacements for every player except for Carrick.
I will however disagree that we can't win the Champions League with our squad the way it is currently. We could probably win it, but unlike Barcelona, Bayern, Dortmund, Madrid and others, we wouldn't be able to win it playing our style of football with our percieved best XI. We'd have to reshape our team and use players like Jones and Welbeck to "do a job" on the night, and both of them have shown themselves capable.
I will however disagree that we can't win the Champions League with our squad the way it is currently. We could probably win it, but unlike Barcelona, Bayern, Dortmund, Madrid and others, we wouldn't be able to win it playing our style of football with our percieved best XI. We'd have to reshape our team and use players like Jones and Welbeck to "do a job" on the night, and both of them have shown themselves capable.
It mightn't be that simple, but if we bought Wilshere and Bale I would lock myself in a room with a dozen toilet rolls and watch YouTube videos of our two new signings until I wanked myself blind!
Yep. Hell, if we signed Wilshere I'd do that. Wilshere and Bale... lord knows what would happen!
Impotency within a few hours?
So...
...the midfield, you say?
...the midfield, you say?
That's in the unknown future, we're discussing the known present.
The gap between United and Bayern has been created by their different approach to the transfer market in recent years. While Bayern addressed their midfield problems by buying Robben, Ribery and Martinez, we splashed the cash on Obertan, Bebe, Young and Nobody. Hardly surprising their midfield is a little better than ours.
That's a predictably selective and unfair selection of signings you've picked on there.
United addressed their midfield problems by buying Kagawa, Valencia and Hargreaves, while Bayern splashed the cash on Weiser, Sosa, Pranjić and Niemand.
Being incredibly selective is fun! They signed Ribery six years ago, you mentalist.
No. We need to stop buying players and then try and turn them into centre mids.
If we need a centre mid. To and get a centre mid.
We would need the ball of them first.
It sounds so simple, doesn't it?
To be fair, Kagawa's best position is in the hole. But it doesn't make him a midfielder, maybe an attacking midfielder, but certainly not for 4-4-2.
You can add Nani to that list. Might be on his way out but you can hardly use his signing as a reason to question the ambition of the club.
Yeah it's easy to pick and choose signings, end of the day we've invested a lot of money in bringing in Hargreaves and Ando, whilst also knowing we had Clev in the reserves to bring through and I'm guessing Pogba was a big part of the plans for the future. Regardless of whether Hargreaves was overrated, for what we needed/need he was a good option, Ando had potential, it just hasn't worked out and unfortunately we lost Pogba. Then this doesn't even factor in Fletcher who again was a big player for us and probably a big part of the plans.
But either way now with only clev a main part of the first team from that bunch there is a need to invest again. I don't think we're anywhere near as far off as some would say and like I said I think the Real game highlights that. We didn't dominate possession but we easily could have won both legs and were unfortunate in the way we went out and that was with only playing one proper midfielder in his prime in both legs and off form wingers.
One midfielder, maybe 2 though only 1 real first teamer is needed, and then a kick up the arse for the wingers/a replacement if Nani goes and we're starting to look very strong imo.
But either way now with only clev a main part of the first team from that bunch there is a need to invest again. I don't think we're anywhere near as far off as some would say and like I said I think the Real game highlights that. We didn't dominate possession but we easily could have won both legs and were unfortunate in the way we went out and that was with only playing one proper midfielder in his prime in both legs and off form wingers.
One midfielder, maybe 2 though only 1 real first teamer is needed, and then a kick up the arse for the wingers/a replacement if Nani goes and we're starting to look very strong imo.
Kagawa competes with Rooney, he's hardly the answer to our midfield problems. By 'recent years' I meant our signings after the failed 'big spend' of 2007. Since then, we haven't spent serious money to get the right quality of player for our midfield - we've spent nothing at all, barring small money for Powell, on CM. We've raised our colours a few times - Sanchez, Hazard, Lucas - but haven't got the job done.
The loss of Pogba/Morrison hasn't helped, but you've got to be lucky competing with teams spending fortunes on the finished article, if you're relying on 'punts' and youth products.
Kagawa plays in the same position as Robben and Ribery, and Ribery signed in the summer of 2007. The only salient part of your initial comment was that last season Bayern had an inferior midfield (Gustavo and Tymoschuk...meh) and they went and bought Martinez. Good for them, but he's just one signing, he's hardly indicative of any broader patterns in either club's recent transfer habits.
Maybe this summer we'll sign a great midfielder and they'll focus on buying great attackers, who knows.
The 'broader pattern' is they bought where they needed to buy, and we did not.
I don't agree that Ribery and Robben play in the same position as Kagawa.
We really need to invest in quality. Plus imagine what happens if Carrick gets injured
Tbf watching Dortmund vs Real tonight and then Bayern yest that's one thing that could help us at least be more impressive in Europe which is playing our own game. Personally I feel at times we change our set up or approach so much that it puts us on the backfoot at times, it'd be nice to be able to go out and play our way.
We have a history of "playing our own way", and it doesn't end well. See 2011 final.
Well within reason, that said we were probably better in that game than the final before that. But in general even in the group stage we seem to really change our game, it's understandable in some cases but it'd be nice to go out and play our way more often. Maybe that would require strengthening the team but either way I think it would help us.
Definitely agree that when we sort out this midfield situation we need to grow a proper pair of testicles and impose our own game on other teams. There's no reason when we sort this issue out that we should set up as if we're underdogs.
I was thinking this at the time during the Madrid ties, but in a sense it may have been wise given that our possession play has been so poor for a lot of this year. With a few tweaks here and there this summer though we should be aiming for higher than that in the future.
I was thinking this at the time during the Madrid ties, but in a sense it may have been wise given that our possession play has been so poor for a lot of this year. With a few tweaks here and there this summer though we should be aiming for higher than that in the future.
Bale and a good CM would make us a match for anybody, imo.
Gundogan should be our number one target, a summer consisting of him and say someone like McCarthy/Wanayama too would represent fantastic midfield business, would genuinely be cocks out time.
Two midfielders in one summer!? I came in here expecting realistic predictions!
We also need luck on our side if we are to win it before Fergie leaves. Bayern are already the best team in Europe this season and are getting even stronger. Barca will still be strong next season. We are capable of matching up against Madrid as we showed this season. Chelsea are also going to be a team to beat especially with someone like Mourinho were to take over. My top five teams next season in Europe: Bayern, Barca, Madrid, United and Chelsea. I didnt add Dortmund to that list because I want to first see who they replace the two big outgoing players with.
For me it's just tactics. Look at Southampton under Pochettino. Employing Dortmund like tactics and even with average players relative to ours, vastly improving their ability to compete against 'better' teams. Employing the right tactics enables you to gain control and dictate the tempo of a game. Our tactics just don't place enough emphasis upon pressuring opponents to expect to gain that control. We tend to relinquish control of the midfield and then try and win the ball back in our own half and counter from deep.
Bayern & Dortmund have been able to engineer such impressive and dominant performances because they intimidate and pressure opponents high up the pitch with their intensive team pressing. It not only restricts an opponents ability to create for themselves, but also forces mistakes in dangerous areas which provides plenty of opportunities to create good chances.
We don't seem to have any noticeable team strategy for disrupting our opponents ability to play their game at a tempo of their choosing. We see good players with time and space to look around and pick passes under very little pressure until they get to our final third. Personally i don't see how even buying 2 new midfielders and playing the same way, will provide us with any better control in these big games against the top teams.