Rugby Union 21/22/23 Discussion | RWC time!

[Traub]

Settle down with that kind of BS. This thread is generally friendly, we don't need nor want that kind of attitude and general nonsense.

Agreed.

The more I think about the game, the more I realise how NZ really wanted to put out a statement. Surely the All Blacks are the greatest international team in any sport. Amazing how they are always amongst the favourites given their population size.

 

[BD]

Settle down with that kind of BS. This thread is generally friendly, we don't need nor want that kind of attitude and general nonsense.

Obviously the way it was expressed is not great, but is the general idea so wrong?

Ireland seem to always have this loop of playing well, bigging themselves up and winning a few friendlies and then getting even more excited, but when it really comes down up it, they fall short. New Zealand played well yesterday of course, but at the same time - Ireland seemed to be able to score fine when they were further behind, but just couldn't push on and actually take the lead. And am I right in saying that they lost the second sin-bin period 3-0?

 

[CallyRed]

Settle down with that kind of BS. This thread is generally friendly, we don't need nor want that kind of attitude and general nonsense.

Agreed. This is rugby we are talking about, not football or the England national team.

 

[Camy89]

I wonder if the Boks will target Dupont's face. From a tactical point of view, it may be worth a yellow. Completely unsporting behaviour of course.

Which is why I foresee SA legit using this as a tactic.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Obviously the way it was expressed is not great, but is the general idea so wrong?

Ireland seem to always have this loop of playing well, bigging themselves up and winning a few friendlies and then getting even more excited, but when it really comes down up it, they fall short. New Zealand played well yesterday of course, but at the same time - Ireland seemed to be able to score fine when they were further behind, but just couldn't push on and actually take the lead. And am I right in saying that they lost the second sin-bin period 3-0?

It was an incredibly dumb post. Ireland have just won the grand slam (with France at the peak of their powers) and an away tour in New Zealand. They clearly don’t have the weak mentality he’s talking about. Basing sweeping opinions on the mentality of a team because of on one off games in knockout competitions 4 years apart is beyond stupid.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Settle down with that kind of BS. This thread is generally friendly, we don't need nor want that kind of attitude and general nonsense.

Chapeau!

 

[JPRouve]

Obviously the way it was expressed is not great, but is the general idea so wrong?

Ireland seem to always have this loop of playing well, bigging themselves up and winning a few friendlies and then getting even more excited, but when it really comes down up it, they fall short. New Zealand played well yesterday of course, but at the same time - Ireland seemed to be able to score fine when they were further behind, but just couldn't push on and actually take the lead. And am I right in saying that they lost the second sin-bin period 3-0?

Yes the general idea is extremely wrong. Ignoring the idea that Ireland isn't actually that good, last night game was close, the reason NZ won is on small details one of them being the origin of the first yellow, a cynical and succcesful attempt to deny a try. The other thing that should be mentioned rucks were poorly reffed, not only NZ constantly played the ball on the ground, on a handful of key moments NZ players egregiously went around rucks and either played the ball or the scrum half until the ref warned them and they went back without penalties, now these moments are important in close games because every single time they killed the attack momentum with zero consequence.

It's not enough to look at the scoreline at 15 vs 14, it's important to note why NZ played at 14 for minutes what they did during that time. They cynically fouled to kill massive try opportunities and then killed momentum with the help of the ref. That's why after the game against France I said that people should be careful with their predictions because most of the between these top 4 teams are very close even when the scoreline doesn't look like it, the way a game is reffed or the way rucks are managed is generally the big difference between a win and loss.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Yes the general idea is extremely wrong. Ignoring the idea that Ireland isn't actually that good, last night game was close, the reason NZ won is on small details one of them being the origin of the first yellow, a cynical and succcesful attempt to deny a try. The other thing that should be mentioned rucks were poorly reffed, not only NZ constantly played the ball on the ground, on a handful of key moments NZ players egregiously went around rucks and either played the ball or the scrum half until the ref warned them and they went back without penalties, now these moments are important in close games because every single time they killed the attack momentum with zero consequence.

It's not enough to look at the scoreline at 15 vs 14, it's important to note why NZ played at 14 for minutes what they did during that time. They cynically fouled to kill massive try opportunities and then killed momentum with the help of the ref. That's why after the game against France I said that people should be careful with their predictions because most of the between these top 4 teams are very close even when the scoreline doesn't look like it, the way a game is reffed or the way rucks are managed is generally the big difference between a win and loss.

I’m agreeing with you a lot today!

It’s mad to me that people would seriously argue that last night was a continuation of previous QF exits. In past tournaments Ireland really did shit the bed. Losing winnable games or getting humiliated by one of the big boys. The match last night was in a different league. NZ played an almost perfect game (with a referee who, as you say, helped them along the way) and were still one held up maul away from being beaten. It was a match decided by very fine margins and the result was no disgrace to Ireland at all.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Agreed.

The more I think about the game, the more I realise how NZ really wanted to put out a statement. Surely the All Blacks are the greatest international team in any sport. Amazing how they are always amongst the favourites given their population size.

They are literally the only country in the world (apart from small island states) where rugby is by a mile their number one sport so it’s not THAT surprising. In Ireland it’s only our 3rd/4th most popular, by comparison. Not to belittle them, they’re insane, but I’m sure if other countries were as rugby mad as them it’d be a different story.

 

[BusbyMalone]

Who upset Sexton after the final whistle? He was really having a go at someone.

Just Sexton being Sexton. Don't particularly have any strong feelings for or against Ireland (although I'm glad NZ won last night) but i really can't stand Sexton and O'mahony so it was great seeing their faces after the match.

 

[HackeyC]

I think it's important to remember that history bears little relevance and there is no mental block because if it. Not many Ireland players or fans cared about the whole QF stigma. The Ireland team was the very best we have seen in the country, and can hold their own with any other team in world rugby.

If history was such a factor we wouldn't be watching the current United team capitulate week in and week out!

There does imo seem to be an undercurrent of (dare I say casual England rugby) fans who couldn't wait to stick the knife in and claim Ireland to be chokers, quite why I'm not sure. The true rugby fans I know recognised the Ireland team to be incredibly strong who were simply marginally bettered in what was a highly competitive game.

Keep in mind, as a country this is the only true united sport of significance. To many of us who grew up in times of division, seeing a united Ireland represented, made up of people across communities that were able to set aside their differences, means more than outsiders could understand. An Ireland RWC victory would have been a huge moment, further breaking down social divides, so it does mean something to the people of Ireland. Those dismissing a competitive 4 point loss to the best rugby nation in history as choking is frankly insulting.

Not aimed at anyone here directly btw, rant over

 

[BusbyMalone]

Great game of Rugby though. That play at the end by Ireland was insane. Superb from both sides, really. Supreme defense from NZ and incredible tenacity by Ireland. Not that we needed it, but that game just highlighted how fecking wonky this draw is. One of the best games you'll see with two of the best teams in the game at the QF stage...then Fiji and England later

And you just KNOW that England are gonna fumble into a final.

 

[BusbyMalone]

Agreed.

The more I think about the game, the more I realise how NZ really wanted to put out a statement. Surely the All Blacks are the greatest international team in any sport. Amazing how they are always amongst the favourites given their population size.

Honestly, one of the best performances I've seen. When you consider that this is probably the best Ireland side there has been and this is certainly not the best NZ side, it makes it even more impressive. And playing the game with 14 men...twice! Against this Irish side? Incredible. The fact that it was only a QF match is mad

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I think it's important to remember that history bears little relevance and there is no mental block because if it. Not many Ireland players or fans cared about the whole QF stigma. The Ireland team was the very best we have seen in the country, and can hold their own with any other team in world rugby.

If history was such a factor we wouldn't be watching the current United team capitulate week in and week out!

There does imo seem to be an undercurrent of (dare I say casual England rugby) fans who couldn't wait to stick the knife in and claim Ireland to be chokers, quite why I'm not sure. The true rugby fans I know recognised the Ireland team to be incredibly strong who were simply marginally bettered in what was a highly competitive game.

Keep in mind, as a country this is the only true united sport of significance. To many of us who grew up in times of division, seeing a united Ireland represented, made up of people across communities that were able to set aside their differences, means more than outsiders could understand. An Ireland RWC victory would have been a huge moment, further breaking down social divides, so it does mean something to the people of Ireland. Those dismissing a competitive 4 point loss to the best rugby nation in history as choking is frankly insulting.

Not aimed at anyone here directly btw, rant over

Good rant. Gets a thumbs up from me.

The 32 counties thing is a big deal. I always think it’s kind of ironic to see Ireland rugby fans slagged off as soup taking West Brits when they support a team that is a literal representation of a united Ireland.

 

[Withnail]

That’s Ireland level. You just can’t take away mentality from sport. It’s all nice and great to win some friendlies and some minor tournaments but when you have never went further then group stages at the World Cup, you can’t pretend you are better then that. Big boy Sexton was a pussy tonight so let’s not pretend it’s unlucky of something. Best players are shining when it matters.
On the other hand, NZ dominated Rugby since the World Cup was created, always have been the most attractive team to watch and it showed tonight. They were professional and on a mission. Very clinical and they knew how to defend when it mattered. They won even if they played with a player less for 20 minutes.

A truly bizarre take when NZ have practically bottled every World Cup bar 1. Ireland's level - my hole.

It was a 50/50 game and they were better on the night. They happened to have their best performance in a long time and revenge may well have been motivation. We'll see if they can perform like that again in the final or if they fall back to pre-World Cup levels.

 

[BD]

Good rant. Gets a thumbs up from me.

The 32 counties thing is a big deal. I always think it’s kind of ironic to see Ireland rugby fans slagged off as soup taking West Brits when they support a team that is a literal representation of a united Ireland.

See there is where my 'relationship' with the rugby team goes a bit off. The heightened importance they seem to place upon themselves. That a guy in a group WhatsApp of mine last night was talking about the inspirational qualities they showed and how great it is that it's a one island team, while the majority of my experiences of the rugby crowd (including him) are the sort of people who couldn't give a feck about the north, and more than likely look down upon it. I'm aware that I hold quite a bitter opinion of the rugby team and crowd, and that's completely coloured by my experiences in school and college in Dublin, but I just can't seem to shake my dislike of the team, what they represent, and the shite they, along with the media and some of the fans, come out with. I'm sure one day I'll mellow out.

 

[moses]

Good rant. Gets a thumbs up from me.

The 32 counties thing is a big deal. I always think it’s kind of ironic to see Ireland rugby fans slagged off as soup taking West Brits when they support a team that is a literal representation of a united Ireland.

Let's not get into that particular representaton of the 32 counties. It was the union of the Ireland within the British Empire. Let's not try to turn the Rugby playing section of our society as the true nationalists.

 

[eire-red]

Great game of Rugby though. That play at the end by Ireland was insane. Superb from both sides, really. Supreme defense from NZ and incredible tenacity by Ireland. Not that we needed it, but that game just highlighted how fecking wonky this draw is. One of the best games you'll see with two of the best teams in the game at the QF stage...then Fiji and England later

And you just KNOW that England are gonna fumble into a final.

The difference in quality between Ireland vs NZ and Wales v Argentina earlier in the day was stark, and it really highlights how much the draw has affected this WC. Today will likely be the same story with England vs Fiji followed by SA v France.

From an Irish perspective, and I'm obviously going to be biased here, but the fact that we also had to play SA and the Scots in the group, whereas NZ got beaten by France, and since have had basically training games for 4 weeks against lower tier nations in the run up to the QF just leaves you a bit bitter.

I'd like to see 16 teams instead of 20 in the next tournament. The pool stages are too long and the quality is pretty dire in some games.

From an Ireland POV, there's definitely a rebuild needed and I think Farrell has earned the right to do that, and I'd like to see him stay on. However, I think ROG has done amazing work with La Rochelle and I feel like he could take Ireland to another level.

 

[kidbob]

There are no friendlies in rugby, except maybe World Cup warm up games. I don't know why its so hard for people to understand this. I mean you've all heard the uproar over the draw. Every time a big team plays another big team there are rankings at stake that can have a huge impact on your draw for the biggest prize. This simply isn't as prevalent in football. So every time Ireland beat a big team in the last 2 years, and they beat them all, it was never a friendly. You really think that NZ didn't care about losing a series at home? The long and short of it is that we lost to a team around our level in a game that was a bounce of a ball away from going to either team. It's kind of like the idea of England choking at big tournaments in football, sometimes they don't do themselves justice but for the most part there are just teams every bit as good as them in the tournament.

 

[Offsideagain]

Well, well, Warren Gatland blames the change of Ref for the defeat against Argentina due to not have studied the quirks of Dickson or the 'English' referee as he called him. Failed to mention the absolute committment of the Argentinian forwards. Adams was lucky to not have got a yellow and how the Argentinian didn't get at least a yellow for clattering the Welsh lad on the head is amazing. Just shows what a joke the Curry red card was. The All Blacks have been slowly getting better and Ireland may have peaked. You could have tossed a coin to get the winner in that one. Perhaps too much pressure on Sexton during the game made him miss a certain 3 points. You can't criticise the effort of both teams, cracking match. The England v Fiji game will be a kick fest (yawn). I'm glad Smith is in although I worry about him coping with a rampaging Fijian but he does get it every week in the Premiership. France v SA is flair v grind, another coin toss match. All Blacks in the final versus ??.

 

[JPRouve]

There are no friendlies in rugby, except maybe World Cup warm up games. I don't know why its so hard for people to understand this. I mean you've all heard the uproar over the draw. Every time a big team plays another big team there are rankings at stake that can have a huge impact on your draw for the biggest prize. This simply isn't as prevalent in football. So every time Ireland beat a big team in the last 2 years, and they beat them all, it was never a friendly. You really think that NZ didn't care about losing a series at home? The long and short of it is that we lost to a team around our level in a game that was a bounce of a ball away from going to either team. It's kind of like the idea of England choking at big tournaments in football, sometimes they don't do themselves justice but for the most part there are just teams every bit as good as them in the tournament.

They know it's just childish goading aimed at Ireland for reasons that can't really be explained. Whoever describe the 6 Nations as a minor tournament is a bit weird.

 

[kidbob]

They know it's just childish goading aimed at Ireland for reasons that can't really be explained. Whoever describe the 6 Nations as a minor tournament is a bit weird.

Aye and sure you have to be able to take the good and the bad. Outside of a Fiji miracle I'm really hoping you guys can go all the way now.

 

[Tarrou]

Well, well, Warren Gatland blames the change of Ref for the defeat against Argentina due to not have studied the quirks of Dickson or the 'English' referee as he called him. Failed to mention the absolute committment of the Argentinian forwards. Adams was lucky to not have got a yellow and how the Argentinian didn't get at least a yellow for clattering the Welsh lad on the head is amazing. Just shows what a joke the Curry red card was. The All Blacks have been slowly getting better and Ireland may have peaked. You could have tossed a coin to get the winner in that one. Perhaps too much pressure on Sexton during the game made him miss a certain 3 points. You can't criticise the effort of both teams, cracking match. The England v Fiji game will be a kick fest (yawn). I'm glad Smith is in although I worry about him coping with a rampaging Fijian but he does get it every week in the Premiership. France v SA is flair v grind, another coin toss match. All Blacks in the final versus ??.

he was full of praise for Argentina in the post-match interview, to be fair

 

[Xaviesta]

I'll admit I got both quarter finals wrong. I was sure Ireland would finally get the QF monkey off their back but in the most gut-wrenching way imaginable, it's still there. I feel shattered for Ireland to come so close to beating New Zealand and to fall short. The painful thing with World Cups is one loss can be fatal and as good as Ireland have been in this World Cup cycle, the next World Cup, the next chance to become world champions is 4 years away.

As a spectacle, rugby cops plenty of stick in Australia but that Ireland vs New Zealand game was outstanding and both sides deserve great credit for the spectacle that we witnessed. Huge respect for New Zealand defending with every fibre of their being to hang on for that last passage. Ireland will be kicking themselves with the way the game started but they'll have nightmares for goodness knows how long about Will Jordan's try which was far, far too easy at this level.

I'm not exactly dripping with enthusiasm at the prospect of either of the two historical superpowers winning the World Cup. I'd even accept England winning the World Cup to avoid a 5th straight World Cup being won by South Africa or New Zealand. On the other hand, I don't really like the fact France get to host this World Cup. So, I'm kind of torn re the France vs South Africa match later on but my preference is for the final to be a battle of the hemispheres. So from here on, Allez Les Bleus! Allez Les Bleus!

 

[Tarrou]

That’s Ireland level. You just can’t take away mentality from sport. It’s all nice and great to win some friendlies and some minor tournaments but when you have never went further then group stages at the World Cup, you can’t pretend you are better then that. Big boy Sexton was a pussy tonight so let’s not pretend it’s unlucky of something. Best players are shining when it matters.
On the other hand, NZ dominated Rugby since the World Cup was created, always have been the most attractive team to watch and it showed tonight. They were professional and on a mission. Very clinical and they knew how to defend when it mattered. They won even if they played with a player less for 20 minutes.

they easily could've won that match, and but for an amazing try-saving tackle they would have won it

they definitely showed up and performed, so it doesn't make any sense to put anything on the mentality

it was probably the best game of rugby I can recall, the standard of rugby was insane and you're acting like they bottled it

 

[Massive Spanner]

We can all agree it’s still a good World Cup if Fiji beat England right?

 

[Redfrog]

they easily could've won that match, and but for an amazing try-saving tackle they would have won it

they definitely showed up and performed, so it doesn't make any sense to put anything on the mentality

it was probably the best game of rugby I can recall, the standard of rugby was insane and you're acting like they bottled it

I agree with you.
But they didn’t win while playing 20 minutes with a man more. So people acting like they were the superior team is a bit weird in my opinion.

 

[Tarrou]

I agree with you.
But they didn’t win while playing 20 minutes with a man more. So people acting like they were the superior team is a bit weird in my opinion.

yeah agreed I don't think they were superior either

Ireland played brilliant, if not perfect, and NZ played almost perfectly

Wales (my team) have never gone toe-to-toe with the ABs like that, and most likely never will..

 

[BusbyMalone]

The difference in quality between Ireland vs NZ and Wales v Argentina earlier in the day was stark, and it really highlights how much the draw has affected this WC. Today will likely be the same story with England vs Fiji followed by SA v France.

From an Irish perspective, and I'm obviously going to be biased here, but the fact that we also had to play SA and the Scots in the group, whereas NZ got beaten by France, and since have had basically training games for 4 weeks against lower tier nations in the run up to the QF just leaves you a bit bitter.

I'd like to see 16 teams instead of 20 in the next tournament. The pool stages are too long and the quality is pretty dire in some games.

From an Ireland POV, there's definitely a rebuild needed and I think Farrell has earned the right to do that, and I'd like to see him stay on. However, I think ROG has done amazing work with La Rochelle and I feel like he could take Ireland to another level.

I'm assuming we'll see the same later, too. The gap in quality between Fiji vs England and France vs SA will be massive, I assume. England should win and find themselves in a Semi Final and they haven't really played anyone of note. It's how it goes, I suppose. As for the Wales game, I do think Argentina are a good side (I had them to win that game) but they just haven't shown it yet. Wales gave them that game, though. They just completely lost control.

And yeah, Ireland don't need to overreact here. It was an incredible game from both sides and you just have to hold your hands up and say NZ were absolutely phenomenal. Be interesting to see whether they can put out another performance like that again.

 

[Skills]

yeah agreed I don't think they were superior either

Ireland played brilliant, if not perfect, and NZ played almost perfectly

Wales (my team) have never gone toe-to-toe with the ABs like that, and most likely never will..

A lot of thats just timing though. The 2015 ABs would obliterate this Ireland team and the many great AB teams before that would've won comfortably too.

 

[BusbyMalone]

We can all agree it’s still a good World Cup if Fiji beat England right?

Yes

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I agree with you.
But they didn’t win while playing 20 minutes with a man more. So people acting like they were the superior team is a bit weird in my opinion.

You pretending that happened when literally not one person has said that is what’s weird.

 

[JPRouve]

A lot of thats just timing though. The 2015 ABs would obliterate this Ireland team and the many great AB teams before that would've won comfortably too.

There is one big issue with this idea. The pre-2016 All Blacks had a way of managing rucks that is now totally forbidden, the bread and butter of McCaw would lead to penalties against NZ on nearly all rucks. It's basically these things, playing the ball on the ground when you are the tackler until the ref reacts, leaving the ruck area through the relayer area, not carrying your bodyweight during jackals when you are a support player and all sorts of offsides that were not as punished.

 

[unchanged_lineup]

I’m agreeing with you a lot today!

It’s mad to me that people would seriously argue that last night was a continuation of previous QF exits. In past tournaments Ireland really did shit the bed. Losing winnable games or getting humiliated by one of the big boys. The match last night was in a different league. NZ played an almost perfect game (with a referee who, as you say, helped them along the way) and were still one held up maul away from being beaten. It was a match decided by very fine margins and the result was no disgrace to Ireland at all.

It almost makes it hurt all the more. Ireland could have folded in that first half due to the weight of history but fought til the last second.

 

[rimaldo]

such a tosser.

I think they looked very flat. Big ask for basically the same 15 to play Boks, Scots and Kiwis in a few weeks.

it was a brutal run. that’s going to be a qf, sf and final most other world cups. empties the tank a lot playing those kind of games.

I wonder if the Boks will target Dupont's face. From a tactical point of view, it may be worth a yellow. Completely unsporting behaviour of course.

luckily they’re bastions of fairness and playing by the rules.

 

[Tarrou]

A lot of thats just timing though. The 2015 ABs would obliterate this Ireland team and the many great AB teams before that would've won comfortably too.

last time we beat them was 1953 so we're due

 

[Xaviesta]

My predictions have been shithouse this weekend but I think England will have too much for a Fijian side who seemed to put absolutely everything into their first two games and haven't been the same since they beat the Wallabies a month ago.

 

[Eendracht maakt macht]

I’ve heard the world cup might expand from a Irishman at the pub last night. Do you guys think that will benifit the game? The group stages will be a dull affair and I just don’t see how The Netherlands for instance losing by a 100 will increase populairty around here. In cricket there isn’t any coverage around here for example.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It almost makes it hurt all the more. Ireland could have folded in that first half due to the weight of history but fought til the last second.

Just reading the papers. We didn’t have a single scrum put in. NZ didn’t knock the ball on once in 85 minutes of rugby. That’s an outrageous level of skill and execution. Such a difficult match to win. We needed to be close to perfection but couldn’t manage that.

 

[BusbyMalone]

My predictions have been shithouse this weekend but I think England will have too much for a Fijian side who seemed to put absolutely everything into their first two games and haven't been the same since they beat the Wallabies a month ago.

Yeah, Fiji look spent. Very easy England win here. France or SA will beat England no problem though.