Rugby Union 21/22/23 Discussion | RWC time!

[T00lsh3d]

I agree with the irish posters. England was the best team in the other side of the draw and the big issue for England against Ireland is that slow methodical game based on kicking and rucks is still Ireland bread and butter, they just added the ability to also run all over you. On the other end in the past 24 months South Africa game hasn't really been about their traditional ruck territorial game and jackal, they have played a game that is a lot closer to the very good Wallabies and England made them suffer in areas that have been sort of weaknesses I mentioned it earlier during this WC but SA misses The Beast, Malcolm Marx and a prime Vermeulen those three were turnover machines that haven't been replaced at all.

Yeah Marx is a huge miss for them, I think there used to be a debate but nowadays he offers so much more than Bongi.

I really hope we can have a proper reset now. I can see that keeping this style was probably the best card for Borthwick to play so close to the WC, but he’s got to evolve England into our version of the multiphase machines that France and Ireland are now. Other than a dearth of props, we have the players coming through to do it.

The breakdown will be fascinating next week. As you say, SA are missing 2 or 3 experts in that area and NZ were masterful (legally and illegally) there in the past 2 games. That being said, SA smashed them in the warm up. Can’t wait to see which way it falls

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I don’t think England scored a try at the World Cup against anyone other than Samoa, Chile, Fiji and Japan? The best teams in the world have an ability to score tries against the best defences. The scrum penalty won SA the game but it was the try they scored that caused the biggest momentum shift. If Borthwick is going to do anything with this team he’ll need to find a way to do more than just kick the opposition to death.

 

[JPRouve]

Yeah Marx is a huge miss for them, I think there used to be a debate but nowadays he offers so much more than Bongi.

I really hope we can have a proper reset now. I can see that keeping this style was probably the best card for Borthwick to play so close to the WC, but he’s got to evolve England into our version of the multiphase machines that France and Ireland are now. Other than a dearth of props, we have the players coming through to do it.

The breakdown will be fascinating next week. As you say, SA are missing 2 or 3 experts in that area and NZ were masterful (legally and illegally) there in the past 2 games. That being said, SA smashed them in the warm up. Can’t wait to see which way it falls

The scoreline of that game is misleading, they didn't actually smash them, it was a fairly close game where NZ made a lot of unforced errors especially in the first half. And they kind of lost it in the second half. If you can watch it again.

 

[Xaviesta]

We've got the final I didn't want. England were so good for so long. Then Ox Nche came on and the Springboks got the scrum dominance they had been craving. If England scored again when the score was 15-6 in their favour, they would have won. Either two taxing knockout games are going to take their toll on them or maybe, just maybe the Boks are destined to win this World Cup. New Zealand will go in favourites based on how the semi finals played out but sometimes that doesn't really matter.

Many will say next week's final will go down to the wire but the last 4 games between NZ and SA haven't been close with the team that started well going on to win pretty comfortably. Whoever gets the game on their terms early will probably prevail.

 

[RORY65]

What's with the narrative that England massively over-performed? From the start they were expected to have a free run to the semis by avoiding any tier 1 teams, and then lose against their first decent opposition. Which is exactly what happened. Well done on meeting expectations.

I was surprised with how well they did against Argentina, who admittedly shit the bed in that game, they then beat a Fiji side who had won at Twickenham a few weeks ago and then gave South Africa a really good game and were a couple of minutes away from winning. From the team they looked like in the warm ups and much of the 6 nations, including conceding more than 50 points at home to France, they were much better than their form suggested partially because their best players who have been way below their best for a while showed up especially last night.

 

[CallyRed]

South Africa's Bongi Mbonambi accused of racial slur

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67185493

 

[TheReligion]

South Africa's Bongi Mbonambi accused of racial slur in World Cup win over England

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67185493

Just seen this. Shocking that it was reported to the ref on field and he told Curry to do nothing (nor did he see fit to do anything either).

 

[T00lsh3d]

The scoreline of that game is misleading, they didn't actually smash them, it was a fairly close game where NZ made a lot of unforced errors especially in the first half. And they kind of lost it in the second half. If you can watch it again.

I will do because my memory of it was the scoreline was kind on New Zealand We shall see….I like a rewatch, it’s amazing how it gives you a different view of things (particularly MMA fights)

 

[T00lsh3d]

Just seen this. Shocking that it was reported to the ref on field and he told Curry to do nothing (nor did he see fit to do anything either).

Called him a fecking Indian, no wonder curry was mad

 

[JPRouve]

I will do because my memory of it was the scoreline was kind on New Zealand We shall see….I like a rewatch, it’s amazing how it gives you a different view of things (particularly MMA fights)

Tell me what you thought about it but even the game stats tell you a more accurate story, then the headlines after the game.

 

[Withnail]

South Africa's Bongi Mbonambi accused of racial slur

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67185493

What's classed as a racial slur against a white Englishman?

 

[CallyRed]

What's classed as a racial slur against a white Englishman?

He was called an white cnut apparently. Maybe it was just his accent and he said can't.

 

[T00lsh3d]

That last scrum, highlighting Koch’s position.

“Not driving straight”, anyone?

 

[JPRouve]

I realize that I'm sometimes too persistent but for the love of god can reporters stop pretending that Fourie isn't a long time Hooker or has been newly converted? What is the number in his back in this video?

 

[Xaviesta]

I realize that I'm sometimes too persistent but for the love of god can reporters stop pretending that Fourie isn't a long time Hooker or has been newly converted? What is the number in his back in this video?

Every hooker would love to score a try running 50 metres with a chip and chase. I assume any French neutrals at the Stade de France will be supporting New Zealand in the final.

 

[slyadams]

That last scrum, highlighting Koch’s position.

“Not driving straight”, anyone?

I hate that scrums have become what they are. It used to be a scrum was a competative way to restart the game where the side with the put in had a significant advantage but the opposition could compete to turnover. You didn't used to only get penalties for genuine infringements where a player would bring it down on pupose. Teams were encouraged to get the ball out and then play because that was usually the best they could expect from a scrum. Now the better scummaging teams use scrums as a penalty factory. Yesterday SA had scrums where the ball was there to play, but they kept the ball in to simply get the penalty. Its very anti-rugby imo.

I can't think of another example in sport where you would concede a foul/penalty simply because someone is better than you. Sure in football you could try to make a tackle, get ouskilled and commit a foul, but the act of tackling is still a conscious action. This happens all the time in rugby, and that's putting aside that most of the time its complete guesswork from the ref. Yesterday was a good example, the ref got the idea that SA had the advantage in the scrum (which they did) and at that point he was just looking for reasons to ping England. The fact he then did that in the last couple of minutes of a World Cup semi-final is pretty poor.

 

[TheReligion]

What's classed as a racial slur against a white Englishman?

Broad question. Could be anything?

 

[Withnail]

Broad question. Could be anything?

He was called an white cnut apparently. Maybe it was just his accent and he said can't.

Ahhh I was thinking there was a specific word or phrase I wasn't aware of. Seems a bit of weird thing to say in the context.

 

[TheReligion]

Ahhh I was thinking there was a specific word or phrase I wasn't aware of. Seems a bit of weird thing to say in the context.

I guess all racial comments/slurs are weird really and to the average person seems astonishing to say/think.

 

[Kopral Jono]

We've got the final I didn't want. England were so good for so long. Then Ox Nche came on and the Springboks got the scrum dominance they had been craving. If England scored again when the score was 15-6 in their favour, they would have won. Either two taxing knockout games are going to take their toll on them or maybe, just maybe the Boks are destined to win this World Cup. New Zealand will go in favourites based on how the semi finals played out but sometimes that doesn't really matter.

Many will say next week's final will go down to the wire but the last 4 games between NZ and SA haven't been close with the team that started well going on to win pretty comfortably. Whoever gets the game on their terms early will probably prevail.

I actually enjoyed both semifinals. Argentina played well enough in the first half to perhaps cause an unlikely upset, but the timing of New Zealand's two tries (right on either side of half time) deflated them so much they lost the plot completely. England v South Africa was a tense, cagey encounter reminiscent of last season's Champions League final with England playing the role of Inter and South Africa City: the former had more than their fair share of chances but couldn't make them count while the latter took great advantage of their 'power play' situations.

 

[Hernandez - BFA]

What was the aftermath when John Terry said “black c**t” to Anton?

 

[T00lsh3d]

I hate that scrums have become what they are. It used to be a scrum was a competative way to restart the game where the side with the put in had a significant advantage but the opposition could compete to turnover. You didn't used to only get penalties for genuine infringements where a player would bring it down on pupose. Teams were encouraged to get the ball out and then play because that was usually the best they could expect from a scrum. Now the better scummaging teams use scrums as a penalty factory. Yesterday SA had scrums where the ball was there to play, but they kept the ball in to simply get the penalty. Its very anti-rugby imo.

I can't think of another example in sport where you would concede a foul/penalty simply because someone is better than you. Sure in football you could try to make a tackle, get ouskilled and commit a foul, but the act of tackling is still a conscious action. This happens all the time in rugby, and that's putting aside that most of the time its complete guesswork from the ref. Yesterday was a good example, the ref got the idea that SA had the advantage in the scrum (which they did) and at that point he was just looking for reasons to ping England. The fact he then did that in the last couple of minutes of a World Cup semi-final is pretty poor.

This is why I think reds shouldn’t penalise if the ball is useable. The team going forwards already has a massive advantage….because they’re going forwards, and also because the opposition backrow is tied onto the scrum. No need to give a pen in that situation

 

[Withnail]

What was the aftermath when John Terry said “black c**t” to Anton?

Much like that case, unless it's been picked up by a mic it's impossible to prove.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I guess all racial comments/slurs are weird really and to the average person seems astonishing to say/think.

Plus calling someone a “white cnut” (assuming that was said) isn’t morally equivalent to the opposite phrase. For obvious reasons. No matter what furious incels might claim online.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Much like that case, unless it's been picked up by a mic it's impossible to prove.

Especially when it’s second hand, from someone with a head injury and bandages over their ears.

 

[LDUred]

Plus calling someone a “white cnut” (assuming that was said) isn’t morally equivalent to the opposite phrase. For obvious reasons. No matter what furious incels might claim online.

It isn't morally equivalent, but it is still racism and should be punished as such.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It isn't morally equivalent, but it is still racism and should be punished as such.

I just find it weird that a white guy would take offence, never mind try to get an opposition player punished over a phrase that carries so little weight as an insult. Especially when England are playing in a white strip!

 

[TheReligion]

I just find it weird that a white guy would take offence, never mind try to get an opposition player punished over a phrase that carries so little weight as an insult. Especially when England are playing in a white strip!

You’re coming over a bit strange here Pogue.

Racism is racism at the end of the day. It’s horrible and inherently wrong.

Not sure what you are thinking.

 

[T00lsh3d]

I just find it weird that a white guy would take offence, never mind try to get an opposition player punished over a phrase that carries so little weight as an insult. Especially when England are playing in a white strip!

Even though white males aren’t exactly a persecuted minority, abusing someone by a general trait, be it gender, race, etc etc is still discrimination and still wrong

 

[Pogue Mahone]

You’re coming over a bit strange here Pogue.

Racism is racism at the end of the day. It’s horrible and inherently wrong.

Not sure what you are thinking.

I think it’s pretty clear what I’m thinking?

 

[TheReligion]

I think it’s pretty clear what I’m thinking?

Do share?

 

[JPRouve]

Plus calling someone a “white cnut” (assuming that was said) isn’t morally equivalent to the opposite phrase. For obvious reasons. No matter what furious incels might claim online.

In an African and in this case South African context, it is morally equivalent. It's every bit as racist.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Do share?

Well you read my post? Do you want it dumbed down? I thought it was pretty clear.

Here’s another way of looking at it. If I’m playing a sport and a black guy calls me a “whit cnut” I would be a) not bothered and b) have no intention of grassing him up. Just seems a weird thing to get worked up about.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

In an African and in this case South African context, it is morally equivalent. It's every bit as racist.

It really isn’t. Especially in a South African context. Where black people have an incredibly recent experience of what real racism actually is, as a lived experience.

 

[Withnail]

I just find it weird that a white guy would take offence, never mind try to get an opposition player punished over a phrase that carries so little weight as an insult. Especially when England are playing in a white strip!

That's kind of why I thought it was weird. If someone said that to me I'd be a bit bemused. It's not exactly elite level sledging which is why I'm leaning towards him being misheard. Unless I'm being ignorant and it's a grave insult in SA, of course.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

That's kind of why I thought it was weird. If someone said that to me I'd be a bit bemused. It's not exactly elite level sledging which is why I'm leaning towards him being misheard. Unless I'm being ignorant and it's a grave insult in SA, of course.

The guy who’s complaining is English, so what it might mean if it was aimed at someone who is South African is neither here nor there.

 

[TheReligion]

Well you read my post? Do you want it dumbed down? I thought it was pretty clear.

Here’s another way of looking at it. If I’m playing a sport and a black guy calls me a “whit cnut” I would be a) not bothered and b) have no intention of grassing him up. Just seems a weird thing to get worked up about.

Its even more weird trying to play it down based on your own views and projecting them on everyone else as though that’s how things should be.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Its even more weird trying to play it down based on your own views and projecting them on everyone else as though that’s how things should be.

My own views, as a privileged white male like Tom Curry, are pretty relevant here, no?

 

[TheReligion]

My own views, as a privileged white male like Tom Curry, are pretty relevant here, no?

You’re entitled to your option but that’s pretty much all it is.

I just find it odd that your first thoughts seem to be to dismiss the whole thing and call Curry a grass rather than to feel as though such comments are racist and should be stamped out of sport.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

You’re entitled to your option but that’s pretty much all it is.

I just find it odd that your first thoughts seem to be to dismiss the whole thing and call Curry a grass rather than to feel as though such comments are racist and should be stamped out of sport.

My first thought was “weird thing for a white guy to get worked up about” and I stand by that.

It’s just so ignorant of the history and power dynamics of racial insults. Which have always been from white people who want to make someone who is black/brown feel bad, by reminding them of their skin colour and the ‘lesser” status that has historically been associated with not being white. It’s hurtful because it’s intended to put someone down, to put them in their place. The idea that reminding a white person that they’re white is in any way hurtful makes very little sense.

Although Curry, at least, has the excuse of being involved in a brutal physical battle where he’s maybe not thinking straight. An excuse you don’t have.