SAF this season

[Jonno]

Id love to know his logic for leaving Valencia out. It is truly the most baffling thing about the whole evening. I assumed he'd be one of the first players down on the team sheet in a game like that one.

100% agree with you there. And why did he ONLY bring him on with about 12 minutes left. Fergie seems to be a afraid to make more than 1 substitution at a time.

What a shame.

To be honest, it will either be one of the most over acheiving title wins ever, or it will be a fantastic effort. If we dont win the league, we can be very upset that we got ourselves in a position to, but at the same time, with the young/transitional side he has, he has pulled off a minor miracle for getting us so many points.

 

[mariachi-19]

of course it's not fecking true

 

[kps88]

Sorry but the mentality and attitude has not always been right this season.

Also, just saw this quote on another forum, if its true it speaks volumes about the mentality at the top.

When we were 4-2 up against Everton, Fergie was laughing and joking with the fourth official. Top professional lip reader Dr. Fred Davies said that Ferguson was saying to the 4th official "this game is won, the title is ours and I cannot wait to use the expression noisy neighbours once more".

Bumped from last page.

 

[Adebesi]

When we were 4-2 up against Everton, Fergie was laughing and joking with the fourth official. Top professional lip reader Dr. Fred Davies said that Ferguson was saying to the 4th official "this game is won, the title is ours and I cannot wait to use the expression noisy neighbours once more."

I dont believe that for one second.

 

[Varun]

It cant be true that.

 

[davisjw]

I would ALMOST agree that wins this season were in spite of Fergie's reckless use of players, starting XI, and substitutions.

After awhile, all those last second goals have to mean something. And while we can look at it as the Manchester attitude, never say never mentality. But on the flip side, you can look at it and say "Why the hell do we continually get ourselves into that position, especially against shite sides?"

And some of our losses have been absolutely embarrassing this season, which is not common for a Fergie squad. Both City league games, Everton, Wigan, CL group games - even against Ajax we were poor, Bilbao toyed with us.

And he has had money to spend. Bebe and Jones alone was enough to buy a proper midfielder so that logic is trash. He has wasted loads recently.

Fergie is still the man, but small cracks are showing. The Fergie of five years ago does not make these mistakes.

 

[Amir]

Fergie is still the man, but small cracks are showing. The Fergie of five years ago does not make these mistakes.

The Fergie of slightly before that brought Djemba, Kleberson, Miller and Bellion, refused to sign a midfielder even when it was clear Keane was on his way down and the team was struggling, had us playing crap football at times and not challenging at all for two years, etc... It's nothing new. Hopefully we'll get over it soon. I had far more doubts in 2006.

 

[Adebesi]

The Fergie of slightly before that brought Djemba, Kleberson, Miller and Bellion, refused to sign a midfielder even when it was clear Keane was on his way down and the team was struggling, had us playing crap football at times and not challenging at all for two years, etc... It's nothing new. Hopefully we'll get over it soon. I had far more doubts in 2006.

I was thinking about that earlier. Someone said something about needing a midfielder for the last 2 years. But for me, although the need has not always been consistently urgent, the position has been something of an achilles heel for all of that time. Even when we were winning the CL or getting to finals or otherwise doing well, it has always felt like the area of the pitch where we have least cover, if not real quality in the first team.

Perhaps it is just because before that we had such immense quality there. Or because it is such an important position, that you feel you need to be well stocked there. But I cant remember many summers where I wasnt hoping for a great signing in that position. It is certainly nothing new. But it is as urgent as it has ever been now.

 

[africanspur]

Sorry but the mentality and attitude has not always been right this season.

Also, just saw this quote on another forum, if its true it speaks volumes about the mentality at the top.

When we were 4-2 up against Everton, Fergie was laughing and joking with the fourth official. Top professional lip reader Dr. Fred Davies said that Ferguson was saying to the 4th official "this game is won, the title is ours and I cannot wait to use the expression noisy neighbours once more".

I don't believe for a second that a man who's won as many trophies as ferguson has and has dominated the last 20 years of the league almost to the same extent as the unreachable Real and Barcelona apparently have together would say anything like that.

The mentality and attitude has been better than the other teams in the league, including city. I've lost count of the number of times in the past couple of seasons where you've played like complete donkeys and still come out with the 3 points. Or come back from games in which you look gone.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Bumped from last page.

feck's sake. The internet has a lot to answer for.

What kind of retard would take that seriously anyway?

 

[FlawlessThaw]

I googled that lip reader comment and the only places that it comes up are this thread and some comment by some random poster on a bbc blog.

I would lean towards it being complete bollocks.

 

[MUFCgal]

I'm sorry, I cannot see SAF saying anything of the sort.

 

[africanspur]

He would have made more of a difference instilling 2 midfielders at the start of the season. He has done brilliantly at times this season, but there is no doubt he has left us woefully short in the middle.

just one more DM would have made all the difference imo. Better protection for a defence clearly not as good as last year, and missing Vidic. Most importantly though, it would enable us to play more than 1 formation effectively.

For me 4-2-3-1 is the best fit for our players. But with just one more DM, we would have been much more effective when we switched to a 4-3-3 or a 4-5-1. You cannot ever be effective in that system without being able to release a midfielder to regularly support the striker through the middle.

Had we done that last night we would have been more open defensively, as it would have been only Scholes and Carrick in the centre which menas we may as well have gone 4-4-2. The lack of another Carrick type this season has cost us dear. Most especially in Europe, but too often in the PL recently too.

I'm not saying at all that he's infallible. He does make some strange decisions. The decision to go with park or giggs over valencia for example was baffling. Especially as your tactics at times this season have been Carrick —scholes—valencia whip it in over and over. I still don't understand the obsession with Anderson? What has he done? How has he still not bought a new cm? Money shouldn't be an object, you've spent almost 30 million on Jones,obertan and bebe. The latter two are inexplicable as footballers.

But it's a bit of a catch 22. Should have done better with the tactics yesterday. But you wouldn't have even been in this title derby imo if it wasn't ferguson.

 

[Beachryan]

We've not won a game when we've fallen behind in the league once this season. 8 times we've gone behind, 8 times we've dropped points.

We've also led leads slip at an alarming rate this season, with obvious substitutions seemingly staring Fergie in the face, but instead we end the match either not having made any, or going with 5 attacking players and no shape.

The point about tactics is simple. Basel, Ajax, Bilbao, Crystal Palace - none of those teams have better players than us, and yet comfortably beat us. That clearly is down to some game plan that was planned and executed well.

My issue with Fergie this year is that we've looked great when he's just stuck out our best XI. Almost every time we've looked absolutely crap was when he went all mental and stuck out of position or out of form players all over the place.

 

[pocco]

I agree with that last part, africanspur. This squad of players has punched above their weight for me. Without Fergie it wouldn't have done this well.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

We've not won a game when we've fallen behind in the league once this season. 8 times we've gone behind, 8 times we've dropped points.

We've also led leads slip at an alarming rate this season, with obvious substitutions seemingly staring Fergie in the face, but instead we end the match either not having made any, or going with 5 attacking players and no shape.

The point about tactics is simple. Basel, Ajax, Bilbao, Crystal Palace - none of those teams have better players than us, and yet comfortably beat us. That clearly is down to some game plan that was planned and executed well.

My issue with Fergie this year is that we've looked great when he's just stuck out our best XI. Almost every time we've looked absolutely crap was when he went all mental and stuck out of position or out of form players all over the place.

You'll note that in almost all of those games we played weakened teams.

That says more to me about fringe players not (yet) being up to scratch then any kind of deficiency in our game plan.

 

[moses]

When we were 4-2 up against Everton, Fergie was laughing and joking with the fourth official. Top professional lip reader Dr. Fred Davies said that Ferguson was saying to the 4th official "this game is won, the title is ours and I cannot wait to use the expression noisy neighbours once more."

In fairness that is fecking funny. Straight out of Viz.

 

[Beachryan]

You'll note that in almost all of those games we played weakened teams.

That says more to me about fringe players not (yet) being up to scratch then any kind of deficiency in our game plan.

That's a fair point - though I thought we went with the first team in at least one Bilbao match?

Injuries have no doubt been part of the problem, and I guess in the past 2 months of one game a week he's only really played our best team. And that was going fine, until yesterday when he chickened out (imho).

I almost wish the season were a bit longer and City had already wrapped it up (if they're going to) so that we could actually get a view into how good our youth players are, and how much investment we really need. But consistently playing Scholes and Giggsy basically means we just don't know if Cleverley or Pogba or whoever could actually do a job in midfield, or if they'll never be good enough.

 

[Cina]

You'll note that in almost all of those games we played weakened teams.

That says more to me about fringe players not (yet) being up to scratch then any kind of deficiency in our game plan.

Well you've always been a big advocate in the strength of our squad. Does this suggest it's not as strong as it once was? It's only a week since you criticised folks who said Real's was better than ours.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Well you've always been a big advocate in the strength of our squad. Does this suggest it's not as strong as it once was? It's only a week since you criticised folks who said Real's was better than ours.

Our squad has been tested more than any other in the Premier League, that's for sure. Well, apart from Arsenal anyway.

I think it's coped pretty well, as it happens. Although we've definitely relied a bit too much on young, inexperienced defenders at times. Them's the breaks though. Shit happens. I'm sure the youngsters will be better players in the long-run as a result.

 

[Transfer United Till I Die]

I agree with that last part, africanspur. This squad of players has punched above their weight for me. Without Fergie it wouldn't have done this well.

I just don't agree with that. Our squad is fine with the exception of the (rather important) midfield issue. Fergie has let his own standards slip this year. He's shown complacency, lack of respect for opponents, tactical ineptitude and baffling subs. These things are so glaring because they are so unlike him. These are the things he has excelled at. And in the end the failure to address the midfield issue lies with him. None of this damages his legacy but it doesn't mean his failings should be ignored.

We've bombed in four cup competitions and have chucked an 8 point lead in the league. Overachieved my arse.

 

[moses]

Our squad has been tested more than any other in the Premier League, that's for sure. Well, apart from Arsenal anyway.

I think it's coped pretty well, as it happens. Although we've definitely relied a bit too much on young, inexperienced defenders at times. Them's the breaks though. Shit happens.

I agree. If we lose on goal difference which is as it stands, they are fine lines, and we have had to endure a lot of injuries this term. Which overall doesn't leave us too badly off. We have better balance to the depth and age profile of our squad too, so won't have to spend as much to be better in the coming years.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

My only real criticism of Fergie is his repeated failure to strengthen the midfield over countless transfer windows.

 

[Transfer United Till I Die]

Oh, and berbatov has been treated like shite.

 

[Cina]

Our squad has been tested more than any other in the Premier League, that's for sure. Well, apart from Arsenal anyway.

I think it's coped pretty well, as it happens. Although we've definitely relied a bit too much on young, inexperienced defenders at times. Them's the breaks though. Shit happens. I'm sure the youngsters will be better players in the long-run as a result.

I agree with the bold part. Though we've relied too much on a rather average midfield too, not just young defenders, and overall that's what cost us. Until the midfield problem is addressed then I won't regard our squad as being near the likes of Real. City's is better at the moment too, but only because they bought shiteloads of already well established, top players, a bit like the Chelsea of old, who are now very old. Luckily when Chelsea were at that, we were still buying potential stars, and it paid off in the long run. Let's hope it does again.

 

[Amir]

Oh, and berbatov has been treated like shite.

He's been treated like our fourth striker. A fourth striker doesn't get a whole lot of pitch time even at United. Teddy Sheringham's 98/99 season would have been forgotten had it not been for a couple of sub appearances at very very big games late on.

 

[Transfer United Till I Die]

He's been treated like our fourth striker. A fourth striker doesn't get a whole lot of pitch time even at United. Teddy Sheringham's 98/99 season would have been forgotten had it not been for a couple of sub appearances at very very big games late on.

So how does an experienced international who has helped us to two titles and was top prem scorer last year deserve to be marginalised and essentially only allowed to play for the stiffs in cup competitions? He's never complained or bitched. Welbeck and Hernandez are young and talented but he's still better than both of them.

 

[davisjw]

You'll note that in almost all of those games we played weakened teams.

That says more to me about fringe players not (yet) being up to scratch then any kind of deficiency in our game plan.

Except it's hard to say who's a starter these days. We fans know who we'd toss out in a best XI, but Fergie has never had a starting XI. He plays the players he thinks will win him the game. Sometimes that includes skilled players, other times it includes Park and Jones. How many years now has it been since he started the same 11 twice? It's incredible. We played as full to strength in Europa as we would have in the CL. No excuses, we were just crap.

The Berbatov frozen out saga is pathetic. I fault Fergie for that. He's isolated one of our best strikers and the only one capable of holding the ball. Rooney wants to play at a light year pace, Welbeck still can't hold it up on his own, and Hernandez will also just be a poacher. We have been desperate for Berbatov's calm, collective presence. And this is coming from someone who hoped he would get sold last season.

 

[Commadus]

The issue re Berbatov is fair he has been harshly treated but we have not lacked goals. We just have been poor at the back due to a combination of missing Vidic, bypassing our midfield and fullbacks who are defensively slack at times.

 

[Amir]

So how does an experienced international who has helped us to two titles and was top prem scorer last year deserve to be marginalised and essentially only allowed to play for the stiffs in cup competitions? He's never complained or bitched. Welbeck and Hernandez are young and talented but he's still better than both of them.

Is he better? In some ways he is, in some ways they are. The manager has given him plenty of time to convince him he's worthy of a first team spot, at some stage he's decided he isn't and chose to push Hernanez and Welbeck up the pecking order. This made Berbatov our fourth striker. That's that.

It's not being treated like 'shit'. It's been treated like he's out of favour. And that's part of football.

 

[davisjw]

Is he better? In some ways he is, in some ways they are. The manager has given him plenty of time to convince him he's worthy of a first team spot, at some stage he's decided he isn't and chose to push Hernanez and Welbeck up the pecking order. This made Berbatov our fourth striker. That's that.

It's not being treated like 'shit'. It's been treated like he's out of favour. And that's part of football.

You can't be out of favor when you're still performing. Something else is up. And he's better than both in every way, goal scoring, assists, hold up play, experience, smarts, all around play, etc.

Hernandez was a God send last season, but this season he has been forgetful. If he played this way last season, most on here would be moaning that Fergie has gone out and found another so-so striker when we needed a Forlan.

Welbeck has been great, but he still flops like Bambi on ice. It's expected, he's still a kid by most accounts, so it doesn't bother me. But there is a learning curve.

On top of that Macheda is out of sorts, Owen is injured, and Dong is at this point playing in a two-teamed league in Tibet.

When you're dig yourself a grave, the first thing you have to do is stop digging. I.e. try something new. We've been begging for Berbatov's influence.

 

[Amir]

When you're dig yourself a grave, the first thing you have to do is stop digging. I.e. try something new. We've been begging for Berbatov's influence.

Since scoring goals hasn't been a problem for most of the season, I struggle to agree. There's just a better flow to the team without him.

 

[Edmeiste]

You can't be out of favor when you're still performing. Something else is up. And he's better than both in every way, goal scoring, assists, hold up play, experience, smarts, all around play, etc.

Hernandez was a God send last season, but this season he has been forgetful. If he played this way last season, most on here would be moaning that Fergie has gone out and found another so-so striker when we needed a Forlan.

Welbeck has been great, but he still flops like Bambi on ice. It's expected, he's still a kid by most accounts, so it doesn't bother me. But there is a learning curve.

On top of that Macheda is out of sorts, Owen is injured, and Dong is at this point playing in a two-teamed league in Tibet.

When you're dig yourself a grave, the first thing you have to do is stop digging. I.e. try something new. We've been begging for Berbatov's influence.

I dont know if we've been begging for it. If we really needed it, we would have played him earlier.

 

[simonhch]

There are some seriously fecking stupid posts in this thread. We have suffered a grueling list of injuries this season and allied to the long term absences of key players in Vidic, Fletcher and Anderson, the squad has coped incredibly well. This is such a young team (propped up by a few aging veterans), that it's remarkable to think they will accumulate nearly 90 points this season. Manchester City have poured 500m into that squad while at the same time the Glazers have stripped the same value from ours.

No-one knows how to rotate a squad better than Fergie, and no one can get more out of a group of players than he can. Year on year people tell us what a shit team we have and how we have no midfield. At the start of every campaign even our own fans write us off when there is no midfield signing. And yet come May we are ALWAYS in the hunt for the biggest prizes. And still people think they know better than the master.

Fergie sets the team up to play the way he knows how to win, which usually involves getting the ball wide often and stretching the play. Carrick ET al have proven to be excellent distributors in such a system, despite the protestations of most.

Every time I think about questioning selection tactics of the great man, I remind myself that I haven't seen what he has seen in training that week. I haven't been working on what he's been working on tactically.

The bottom line is that on paper our squad isn't that great. And we have no right to be where Fergie has had us for the last 3 years. Yet he has gotten us there. If we don't win a trophy this year then the last person fingers should be pointed at is SAF. I wouldn't even point it at the players who are mostly young, I would point it at the greasy American cnut bangs who have starved the squad of investment and lived off the incredible resourcefulness of the greatest British football manager of all time.

 

[Cheesy]

There are some seriously fecking stupid posts in this thread. We have suffered a grueling list of injuries this season and allied to the long term absences of key players in Vidic, Fletcher and Anderson, the squad has coped incredibly well. This is such a young team (propped up by a few aging veterans), that it's remarkable to think they will accumulate nearly 90 points this season. Manchester City have poured 500m into that squad while at the same time the Glazers have stripped the same value from ours.

No-one knows how to rotate a squad better than Fergie, and no one can get more out of a group of players than he can. Year on year people tell us what a shit team we have and how we have no midfield. At the start of every campaign even our own fans write us off when there is no midfield signing. And yet come May we are ALWAYS in the hunt for the biggest prizes. And still people think they know better than the master.

Fergie sets the team up to play the way he knows how to win, which usually involves getting the ball wide often and stretching the play. Carrick ET al have proven to be excellent distributors in such a system, despite the protestations of most.

Every time I think about questioning selection tactics of the great man, I remind myself that I haven't seen what he has seen in training that week. I haven't been working on what he's been working on tactically.

The bottom line is that on paper our squad isn't that great. And we have no right to be where Fergie has had us for the last 3 years. Yet he has gotten us there. If we don't win a trophy this year then the last person fingers should be pointed at is SAF. I wouldn't even point it at the players who are mostly young, I would point it at the greasy American cnut bangs who have starved the squad of investment and lived off the incredible resourcefulness of the greatest British football manager of all time.

I can see where you're coming from there, I really can, and a lot of people have been going overboard in this thread.

At the same time though, you've got to understand that even on a Man United forum, Fergie isn't immune to criticism and people are entitled to air their views as long as they show respect towards Fergie with them, and don't appear ungrateful. It's perfectly understandable after Monday, because it's clear that he made a massive mistake by putting Park in the centre of midfield.

You wouldn't have needed to have been at the training ground all week to see that he shouldn't have played an out of form winger who has hardly played in central midfield, simply based on his experience and ability to usually play well for us in bigger games.

Now, I hate it as much as you when people slate Fergie because he's the reason we're in positions like this to start with, but it doesn't mean he cannot be criticised at all. If that was the case, then this forum would probably just be shut down completely. I think it's acceptable as long as people are reserved and constructive when they do it.

 

[Brwned]

feck's sake. The internet has a lot to answer for.

What kind of retard would take that seriously anyway?

Someone who has an agenda but with nothing to actually back it up other than rumours?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I can see where you're coming from there, I really can, and a lot of people have been going overboard in this thread.

At the same time though, you've got to understand that even on a Man United forum, Fergie isn't immune to criticism and people are entitled to air their views as long as they show respect towards Fergie with them, and don't appear ungrateful. It's perfectly understandable after Monday, because it's clear that he made a massive mistake by putting Park in the centre of midfield.

You wouldn't have needed to have been at the training ground all week to see that he shouldn't have played an out of form winger who has hardly played in central midfield, simply based on his experience and ability to usually play well for us in bigger games.

Now, I hate it as much as you when people slate Fergie because he's the reason we're in positions like this to start with, but it doesn't mean he cannot be criticised at all. If that was the case, then this forum would probably just be shut down completely. I think it's acceptable as long as people are reserved and constructive when they do it.

I like the way you've gone from it being a "massive mistake" to play Park to explaining why it actually made a lot of sense i.e. because of his experience and ability to play well in big games. Doesn't really compute that a manager can make a massive mistake in his team selection when there's such a logical and easy to understand rationale behind it.

Of course, you would have had to have been at the training ground all week to know how well Park was playing in training and how likely it was that he could repay his manager's faith.

 

[Cheesy]

I like the way you've gone from it being a "massive mistake" to play Park to explaining why it actually made a lot of sense i.e. because of his experience and ability to play well in big games. Doesn't really compute that a manager can make a massive mistake in his team selection when there's such a logical and easy to understand rationale behind it.

Of course, you would have had to have been at the training ground all week to know how well Park was playing in training and how likely it was that he could repay his manager's faith.

No, but you've ignored the rest of my post there. Admittedly, there is some logical reasoning to playing Park, but all of that logical reasoning is instantly wiped out when you consider that he was played blatantly out of position, hasn't been playing well this season and had hardly been playing at all lately.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

That quote is so blatantly concocted to suit a certain storyline some would absolutely love to believe.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

No, but you've ignored the rest of my post there. Admittedly, there is some logical reasoning to playing Park, but all of that logical reasoning is instantly wiped out when you consider that he was played blatantly out of position, hasn't been playing well this season and had hardly been playing at all lately.

It's not "wiped out" at all. It's just put in context. Fergie will have been well aware of well Park's played this season and how much he's played lately. He'll also have seen in training whether he was capable of putting in a performance against City.

The "out of position" point really is an irrelevance. It's barely a year ago since he played against Chelsea in almost the exact same role. He was nominally a wide midfielder in that game but played very centrally throughout. He also did a number on Pirlo from a central position when we played Milan. Playing him in the centre as one half of a two man midfield is a big risk but he's played in midfield in addition to two specialist CMs plenty of times before.

As with every defeat, it's very easy to be wise with hindsight. The fact remains that David De Gea made one save from open play in 90 minutes. In a game against the team with the best home record in the history of the Premier League. That tells me that people are getting a bit carried away with this whole "massive mistake" thing. Maybe Fergie could have gone with a more attacking line-up. Maybe a more open game would have seen us absolutely torn apart. We'll never know though. What we do know is that we were a moment's madness defending a corner away from getting our 20th title more or less in the bag.

Very easy to sit on the sidelines and slag off the manager for some difficult decisions he had to make. So long as there's some logic or reason behind what he did I find it very easy to give SAF the benefit of any doubt. What with his record as a United manager and the fact that I'm just some bloke on the internet. I always find it strange that others can't do the same.