SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

[Brwned]

Why aren't you guys protesting, why do you accept these assholes as your leaders?

They are widely supported, the caf’s view is very unrepresentative of the general population. Most people support them in situations like this on the basis that “yeah they’re bad, but that do you expect, they’re politicians” or “alright they’re bad but at least they’re not those other guys”. The level of political apathy combined with political tribalism is really astounding. It’s a completely different world to your politics where you have basic expectations of your politicians.

And there’s a big dose of deference to the aristocracy too, British monarchical history plays a big role in shaping those expectations. Which is why you get people like @P-Ro saying of course senior politicians should act like they’re above the law, we shouldn’t expect them to adhere to these basic standards of ethics without a hint of irony. It’s just ingrained in the culture. The elite - the Etonians etc. - are different and that’s just how it is.

So I don’t protest because I don’t expect results, I don’t believe it has popular support, and I don’t think the population has any appetite to hold political leaders to account. First and foremost they just want to beat the other side. Everything afterwards is just politics.

 

[Wolverine]

I find it strange the furore about the PM and Chancellor not self-isolating and undergoing the scheme that was in place before they got the ping. I fully expect the decision makers in our country to have measures in place that prevents them from not being able to do their job. The fact that the PM isn't capable enough to do his job regardless of his covid situation is what we should worried about and the u-turn demonstrates this further.

I hear you but they could do this daily lateral flow testing to replace track and trace to help essential key workers too.
I've had to take unpaid leave - split along with my wife- to take care of my toddler who's been in close contact with a nursery staff member who is covid positive.
Meanwhile leaving our workplaces in hospital underresourced on the ward during a crucial time.

People need clarity and consistency. Politicians ain't the only ones with essential roles. And I think more likely to be able to do a lot more at home than nurses for examples who'll have to stay at home during possibly a peak wave of covid if track and trace stays on till August.

 

[Wolverine]

Why aren't you guys protesting, why do you accept these assholes as your leaders?

Their popularity is based on numerous factors but I think furlough scheme and support there is a big one. Also vaccine program.

 

[golden_blunder]

Their popularity is based on numerous factors but I think furlough scheme and support there is a big one. Also vaccine program.

It goes deeper than that, look at brexit for example. U.K. is going through a phase where stiff upper lip trumps common sense for a majority

 

[P-Ro]

And there’s a big dose of deference to the aristocracy too, British monarchical history plays a big role in shaping those expectations. Which is why you get people like @P-Ro saying of course senior politicians should act like they’re above the law, we shouldn’t expect them to adhere to these basic standards of ethics without a hint of irony. It’s just ingrained in the culture. The elite - the Etonians etc. - are different and that’s just how it is.

If you're going to put my name next to an imaginery quote you've conjured up then I'd suggest you at least make it an accurate representation of my views. I find it really strange when people do this type of thing.

 

[711]

If you're going to put my name next to an imaginery quote you've conjured up then I'd suggest you at least make it an accurate representation of my views. I find it really strange when people do this type of thing.

I noticed.

 

[Brwned]

If you're going to put my name next to an imaginery quote you've conjured up then I'd suggest you at least make it an accurate representation of my views. I find it really strange when people do this type of thing.

There’s a lot packed into words, they mean different things in different contexts, and carry implications beyond their original meaning. You’re free to reframe my words in another context too, it’s a normal part of sharing ideas through language.

What you said was you would entirely expect them to be exempt from laws like this, on the basis of their job. The implications follow from that. They should be exempt even though many other essential workers, who collectively play a larger role in the daily functioning of society, are not. Their ethical duty can simply be disregarded. What part of that is an inaccurate representation of what you said?

 

[P-Ro]

There’s a lot packed into words, they mean different things in different contexts, and carry implications beyond their original meaning. You’re free to reframe my words in another context too, it’s a normal part of sharing ideas through language.

What you said was you would entirely expect them to be exempt from laws like this, on the basis of their job. The implications follow from that. They should be exempt even though many other essential workers, who collectively play a larger role in the daily functioning of society, are not. Their ethical duty can simply be disregarded. What part of that is an inaccurate representation of what you said?

What you quoted is not my view, at all. You've made assumptions, they're wrong. There's really nothing more to add.

 

[jojojo]

Interesting symptoms update from the Zoe app team - they suggest covid may now be presenting differently between the vaxxed/unvaxxed. Certainly headache and sneezes/runny nose symptoms (previously more often seen in children with covid) are more common as first symptoms now in covid cases than the standard fever/cough ones.

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The reason it's an issue is that the NHS site and 119 are still using the original symptoms set to approve a request for a PCR test. In other words, you may need to lie to get a test. I'm sure some people who know the system are happy to lie to it, but others may just wander away thinking - "that proves it then, must be hayfever, or a bit of a cold."

The current standard PCR test eligibility screening list:

a high temperature
a new, continuous cough
you’ve lost your sense of smell or taste or it’s changed

 

[Brwned]

What you quoted is not my view, at all. You've made assumptions, they're wrong. There's really nothing more to add.

We should separate out the two ideas, I probably didn’t do that well enough first time round. The assumptions are about a population, not about you as an individual. I don’t know if you think that. I don’t assume you do at all. I think that it’s easier to take your position in a culture that has those features, but I don’t think that culture is why you believe it. And it’s obviously my opinion, not something written in stone, that this is part of our political culture right now.

I used your position, and generalised it, to explain how some people relate to the government and those in charge. If you think the way I’ve generalised it is inaccurate, you can obviously correct me. Maybe you think it only applies in this context and not that context, in which case it doesn’t generalise. Maybe I misinterpreted the initial meaning. That’s not about me making assumptions, just inferences. If I’ve made the wrong inferences I’ll take it back and apologise, I’m just not seeing it.

 

[711]

We should separate out the two ideas, I probably didn’t do that well enough first time round. The assumptions are about a population, not about you as an individual. I don’t know if you think that. I don’t assume you do at all. I think that it’s easier to take your position in a culture that has those features, but I don’t think that culture is why you believe it.

I used your position, and generalised it, to explain how some people relate to the government and authority. If you think the way I’ve generalised it is inaccurate, you can obviously correct me. Maybe you think it only applies in this context and not that context, in which case it doesn’t generalise. Maybe I misinterpreted the initial meaning. That’s not about me making assumptions, just inferences. If I’ve made the wrong inferences I’ll take it back and apologise, I’m just not seeing it.

The problem is that in 59161 it appeared you were quoting him verbatim, which of course you weren't, it was your personal interpretation. Just a bit naughty, but I'm sure you didn't intend it that way.

 

[groovyalbert]

Interesting symptoms update from the Zoe app team - they suggest covid may now be presenting differently between the vaxxed/unvaxxed. Certainly headache and sneezes/runny nose symptoms (previously more often seen in children with covid) are more common as first symptoms now in covid cases than the standard fever/cough ones.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

The reason it's an issue is that the NHS site and 119 are still using the original symptoms set to approve a request for a PCR test. In other words, you may need to lie to get a test. I'm sure some people who know the system are happy to lie to it, but others may just wander away thinking - "that proves it then, must be hayfever, or a bit of a cold."

The current standard PCR test eligibility screening list:

I mean, as inept as the government is, if you've not got one of those symptoms but want a PCR test, just say you have!

 

[P-Ro]

We should separate out the two ideas, I probably didn’t do that well enough first time round. The assumptions are about a population, not about you as an individual. I don’t know if you think that. I don’t assume you do at all. I think that it’s easier to take your position in a culture that has those features, but I don’t think that culture is why you believe it.

I used your position, and generalised it, to explain how some people relate to the government and authority. If you think the way I’ve generalised it is inaccurate, you can obviously correct me. Maybe you think it only applies in this context and not that context, in which case it doesn’t generalise. Maybe I misinterpreted the initial meaning. That’s not about me making assumptions, just inferences. If I’ve made the wrong inferences I’ll take it back and apologise, I’m just not seeing it.

Maybe you should reconsider using the phrase "People like x" in the future. It is nearly always used in a derogatory context and what follows often misrepresents the views of the person. I only mentioned decision makers because they were the topic of discussion. It's just not possible to make the inference about what I believe the rules for people with other roles and responsibilities should be from what I said.

 

[Brwned]

The problem is that in 59161 it appeared you were quoting him verbatim, which of course you weren't, it was your personal interpretation. Just a bit naughty, but I'm sure you didn't intend it that way.

I just figured it was implied that if I didn't include quotation marks or include the direct quote, and the fact it was presented in a generalised context no-one would ever say, that it was just my characterisation of that line of thinking. And if people wanted to know where it came from, they'd just look back to the quote from the man himself. Like you did. But fair enough, it was just me being too lazy to add the quotes and then clarify that it's a characterisation, which given the sensitive subject was just a bit stupid. My bad.

Maybe you should reconsider using the phrase "People like x" in the future. It is nearly always used in a derogatory context and what follows often misrepresents the views of the person. I only mentioned decision makers because they were the topic of discussion. It's just not possible to make the inference about what I believe the rules for people with other roles and responsibilities should be from what I said.

But you're free to clarify your view and dispute the characterisation? That's a normal part of the free exchange of ideas. You just choose not to.

I agree that people shouldn't be able to mischaracterise others' views, and if you show me where I have, I'll hold my hands up. However on the flipside, I don't think people should be able to say something and claim it can only ever be understood in the context it was said, no inferences can be made, no implications can be drawn. That leads down a dangerous path too.

Here's the direct quote. You put the PM and chancellor in a special class of decision makers that should be exempted them from self-isolation, which in turn exempts them from the law. If you meant decision-makers and a load of other people, then that's obviously open to misinterpretation, and clarification would fix that. If you clarified your view, then my characterisation might not fit at all. I would take it it back as ultimately I was the one who misinterpreted it. But that wouldn't be the default assumption given the words you chose. Decision-makers don't tend to mean bus drivers, for example. That's what drives the inferences.

I find it strange the furore about the PM and Chancellor not self-isolating and undergoing the scheme that was in place before they got the ping. I fully expect the decision makers in our country to have measures in place that prevents them from not being able to do their job.

 

[P-Ro]

But you're free to clarify your view and dispute the characterisation? That's a normal part of the free exchange of ideas. You just choose not to.

I agree that people shouldn't be able to mischaracterise others' views, and if you show me where I have, I'll hold my hands up. However on the flipside, I don't think people should be able to say something and claim it can only ever be understood in the context it was said, no inferences can be made, no implications can be drawn. That leads down a dangerous path too.

Here's the direct quote. You put the PM and chancellor in a special class with decision makers that exempts them from self-isolation, which in turn exempts them from the law. If you meant decision-makers and a load of other people, then that's obviously open to misinterpration, and clarification would fix that. If you clarified your view, then my characterisation might not fit at all. But that wouldn't be the default assumption given the words you chose.

You do realise you characterised me as a pleb in the orginal quote right? I'm not going to engage in an endless discussion with you. People like you just aren't worth the effort.

 

[Brwned]

You do realise you characterised me as a pleb in the orginal quote right? I'm not going to engage in an endless discussion with you. People like you just aren't worth the effort.

Ironically, that's just your inference. I think you've misinterpreted. It doesn't represent my view of you, or people that share those views, at all. You've just characterised it in a way to fit your argument. Maybe it's because I left things open to misinterpretation. All perfectly normal things in a discussion, on a discussion forum. At the end of the day if you don't want your views to be discussed, you shouldn't share them on a discussion forum.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

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So this is yet another BoJo u-turn?

 

[DJ Jeff]

3Oyo friend of mine got the facial palsy adverse reaction. Hopefully it reverses. He's very panicked about it, understandably. I think it goes away after a couple weeks?

 

[P-Ro]

Ironically, that's just your inference. I think you've misinterpreted. It doesn't represent my view of you, or people that share those views, at all. You've just characterised it in a way to fit your argument. Maybe it's because I left things open to misinterpretation. All perfectly normal things in a discussion, on a discussion forum. At the end of the day if you don't want your views to be discussed, you shouldn't share them on a discussion forum.

You've been awfully sincere throughout this exchange. People like me should be accountable to people like you.

 

[Wolverine]

3Oyo friend of mine got the facial palsy adverse reaction. Hopefully it reverses. He's very panicked about it, understandably. I think it goes away after a couple weeks?

Usually 3 weeks, sadly can be a few months for full facial muscle function/strength for a few cases.
In the beginning regardless of if he's on steroid tablets, important to get eye drops as risk of dry eyes. There's very good specialist services from facial rehabiliation to oculoplastics that have a lot of good therapies now in even very severe cases.

 

[decorativeed]

They are widely supported, the caf’s view is very unrepresentative of the general population. Most people support them in situations like this on the basis that “yeah they’re bad, but that do you expect, they’re politicians” or “alright they’re bad but at least they’re not those other guys”. The level of political apathy combined with political tribalism is really astounding. It’s a completely different world to your politics where you have basic expectations of your politicians.

And there’s a big dose of deference to the aristocracy too, British monarchical history plays a big role in shaping those expectations. Which is why you get people like @P-Ro saying of course senior politicians should act like they’re above the law, we shouldn’t expect them to adhere to these basic standards of ethics without a hint of irony. It’s just ingrained in the culture. The elite - the Etonians etc. - are different and that’s just how it is.

So I don’t protest because I don’t expect results, I don’t believe it has popular support, and I don’t think the population has any appetite to hold political leaders to account. First and foremost they just want to beat the other side. Everything afterwards is just politics.

This. Plus, if people had any political knowledge and awareness, they wouldn't have voted these twats in in the first place. People voted Tory in Old Labour heartlands because they blamed their local Labour MPs for the decline of the High Street, and public services and for the poor condition of the roads, when all of these problems were caused by decade-long Tory austerity policies and lack of regulation of the likes of Amazon. The kind of stuff that goes on at Westminster day in, day out isn't seen by most voters.

 

[711]

Covid 19: More than one third of Londoners unvaccinated

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-57874402

Is London about to get whacked? Are they just lucky? I don't know.

 

[decorativeed]

My son had a case in his class and had to isolate till today. As my kids live with their mother, it means I couldn't see them. The week before that my wife had to isolate, which meant the kids couldn't stay with us. Now that my son's isolation has ended, literally within hours, my daughter has been told to isolate because of a case in her class, just days before the school breaks up for the summer. So that's at least another week I can't see them.

So the only thing I can do is Skype them. I just rang then, and who's wandering around in the background but their 80 year old grandfather!

I don't like not being able to see my children, but I know I'm doing the right thing by them and everyone else I come into contact with. It's clear that that side of the family couldn't give a shit. This whole pandemic is being prolonged by selfish, idiotic behaviour like this.

 

[Ecstatic]

My son had a case in his class and had to isolate till today. As my kids live with their mother, it means I couldn't see them. The week before that my wife had to isolate, which meant the kids couldn't stay with us. Now that my son's isolation has ended, literally within hours, my daughter has been told to isolate because of a case in her class, just days before the school breaks up for the summer. So that's at least another week I can't see them.

So the only thing I can do is Skype them. I just rang then, and who's wandering around in the background but their 80 year old grandfather!

I don't like not being able to see my children, but I know I'm doing the right thing by them and everyone else I come into contact with. It's clear that that side of the family couldn't give a shit. This whole pandemic is being prolonged by selfish, idiotic behaviour like this.

Who can see your daughter?

 

[decorativeed]

Who can see your daughter?

As she's isolating, it should be only the people she shares a home with. So her mother and brother.

 

[djembatheking]

I live in Anglesey and went fishing today and while I was on the rocks a fella turned up with 3 boys and set up about 30 metres away . When I was leaving I stopped to have a chat and he said they were down from Manchester for the weekend and I asked the boys when they were breaking up for the summer holidays. They said they already had as they were self isolating as there was covid in their school. The dad didn`t bat an eyelid. I just walked off as what is the point of saying anything?

 

[Ecstatic]

As she's isolating, it should be only the people she shares a home with. So her mother and brother.

My view is that she should be allowed to undertake a test so that she can see you if the test is negative.

 

[jojojo]

Covid 19: More than one third of Londoners unvaccinated

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-57874402

Is London about to get whacked? Are they just lucky? I don't know.

There are some factors that make London tricky to guess. Some of the people registered there may have already moved away. A lot of the central areas have lots of young people, and fewer in the high risk groups. Some parts of London have already had very high case rates, or test high for infection-source antibodies, so lots of people have some immunity based on that.

It looks like there's potential for a massive rise in case rates, but the same factors that mean people don't get vaxxed may mean they don't get tested either. The only indicators worth taking seriously for London are the ones for hospital admissions and deaths.

 

[711]

There are some factors that make London tricky to guess. Some of the people registered there may have already moved away. A lot of the central areas have lots of young people, and fewer in the high risk groups. Some parts of London have already had very high case rates, or test high for infection-source antibodies, so lots of people have some immunity based on that.

It looks like there's potential for a massive rise in case rates, but the same factors that mean people don't get vaxxed may mean they don't get tested either. The only indicators worth taking seriously for London are the ones for hospital admissions and deaths.

I'd thought of most of that, but not the age profile, thanks.

 

[JB08]

So my girlfriend is due to have a doctor check a potentially (though hopefully not) cancerous mole this coming week. She’s just been pinged, however, so will have to reschedule for the following week. Another week of worry.. but I understand the need for this system.

It’s just very upsetting seeing Johnson & co. go against the system with little or no consequence, when people like my girlfriend (and those, I’m sure, in far worse circumstances) have to suffer as a result.

 

[groovyalbert]

So my girlfriend is due to have a doctor check a potentially (though hopefully not) cancerous mole this coming week. She’s just been pinged, however, so will have to reschedule for the following week. Another week of worry.. but I understand the need for this system.

It’s just very upsetting seeing Johnson & co. go against the system with little or no consequence, when people like my girlfriend (and those, I’m sure, in far worse circumstances) have to suffer as a result.

Aren't the pings advisory? If she's been double vaccinated/can trace the likely encounter back to something minimal, surely this would be more pressing?

 

[decorativeed]

My view is that she should be allowed to undertake a test so that she can see you if the test is negative.

Your view isn't what the rules are though. The rules are that self isolation means no visitors. Why her grandparents seem to think the rules don't apply is baffling to me.

 

[decorativeed]

Aren't the pings advisory? If she's been double vaccinated/can trace the likely encounter back to something minimal, surely this would be more pressing?

No, they aren't! Failing to isolate can land you with a £1000 fine.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-legal-duty-to-self-isolate-comes-into-force-today

 

[Wolverine]

No, they aren't! Failing to isolate can land you with a £1000 fine.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-legal-duty-to-self-isolate-comes-into-force-today

I believe thats NHS test and trace, which is somebody calling you if a positive case person identifies you as close contact. Thats legally binding.

If you are "pinged" as per the app you're advised - but not legally obliged - to self-isolate for 10 days. Mind you not sure I can keep up with this government.

 

[groovyalbert]

No, they aren't! Failing to isolate can land you with a £1000 fine.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-legal-duty-to-self-isolate-comes-into-force-today

That's a totally separate system to the app though

 

[decorativeed]

That's a totally separate system to the app though

No. No, it's not!

 

[decorativeed]

I believe thats NHS test and trace, which is somebody calling you if a positive case person identifies you as close contact. Thats legally binding.

If you are "pinged" as per the app you're advised - but not legally obliged - to self-isolate for 10 days. Mind you not sure I can keep up with this government.

When you get pinged it tells you that you 'must' self isolate, not 'should'.

No wonder we're in a mess where people have such different interpretation of what should be simple concepts.

 

[groovyalbert]

No. No, it's not!

I'm afraid the app is advisory and not legally binding

 

[decorativeed]

I'm afraid the app is advisory and not legally binding

Surely the app is there so that they automate the system and to alleviate the need to hire hundreds of staff to phone people. It's got to be powered by the same systems, no?

 

[Ecstatic]

Your view isn't what the rules are though. The rules are that self isolation means no visitors. Why her grandparents seem to think the rules don't apply is baffling to me.

In your case, interesting to see people at risk (grandparents) are more risk-taker and independent thinker so more inclined to follow their personal rules.