SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Preach!

The young have been well and truly shafted this crisis.

How so?

If the poster speaks of people that have paid down debt, saved for a house, then in a year or two, many of them will be in the best position any generation has experienced since the Boomers. Cash rich, employed, surplus housing stock everywhere, banks competing for business.

It’s callous to reduce to those terms but the 5 year outlook for anyone with money in the bank is better than it was a year ago. There will be opportunity in the air.

People seem to forget that ‘Boomers’ refers to those who were born just after World War 2. For large swathes of that generation, life was really fcuking hard. Families decimated. Grandparents gone in many cases. Helpful Global economics and a long period of surety was no guarantee at the outset.

 

[Volumiza]

For what it’s worth i didn’t see a post saying the young were disproportionality screwed, just that the youth had been screwed by this crisis. Then people responded to say that the elderly who have disproportionality paid the ultimate price (which is true).

Just seemed that anyone of below 35 who was worried got jumped on for whinging and complaining - not necessarily by you btw.

We’ve all got problems whether that’s our own outlook, for our children, for our elderly parents. We’ve all got struggles and empathy is needed for everyone’s perspective when the world burns.

Dude, I haven’t disagreed with anything other than making comparisons of levels of suffering.

Everyone is, and will be, paying a price. I am of a view that we are all in this very much together.

Someone mentioned earlier they hope society learns from this. I hope for this too. Awful as this virus is and dreadful as the effects may well be there are huge lessons to be taken from how as a society we react.

Further divide and pull apart? Or the opposite?

 

[Penna]

Everyone is suffering now or will suffer in the future, one way or another. No-one can change their age, we are what we are. We're all in it together, folks.

 

[Jippy]

Sucks for them, but the millennials as a generation will suffer the aftereffects of this the most.

Shit certainly rolls downhill. My generation (I'm 44) missed out on final salary pensions and cheap housing, and those younger than fee have now got uni fees, even more indebted country etc...From my generation downwards, vast swathes of people, probably the majority, will never get to retire, so yeah the picture is pretty bleak all round.

 

[sullydnl]

For what it’s worth i didn’t see a post saying the young were disproportionality screwed, just that the youth had been screwed by this crisis. Then people responded to say that the elderly who have disproportionality paid the ultimate price (which is true).

Just seemed that anyone of below 35 who was worried got jumped on for whinging and complaining - not necessarily by you btw.

We’ve all got problems whether that’s our own outlook, for our children, for our elderly parents. We’ve all got struggles and empathy is needed for everyone’s perspective when the world burns.

Tbf I sort of said that.

Or rather I said that those in worse financial positions will tend to be disproportionately impacted more than those in strong financial positions. And if different age groups tend to be in better/worse financial positions than each other then by extension some age groups will tend to be more heavily impacted. The same applies to any other grouping of people who tend to be less well off than others. Someone mentioned BAME earlier, where the same may also apply.

I don't think that's in any way a controversial point. It's nice to say "we're all in this together" like everyone will be impacted to exactly the same extent but that's simply untrue. Everyone will be impacted but the vulnerable, the less well off, the less secure and those who already struggling will no doubt get the worst of it.

 

[Wumminator]

Everyone is suffering now or will suffer in the future, one way or another. No-one can change their age, we are what we are. We're all in it together, folks.

No one can change their age?

Why the feck did I buy a convertible and start offering the clearly uncomfortable barmaid a few free drinks after work if that is the case?!?

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

The “flattening of the curve” was less about number of deaths and more number of (severe) cases, in order to ensure that that figure did not breach care capacity. The bargain for “flattening the curve” was always that we may have more cases in total even and that they are spread out over a longer period of time. We’re only in April FFS.

This guy seems to think flattening the curve means producing mountain ranges, which isn’t the case. You’re literally trying to have a much longer, but far less acute peak.

Don't know what he's on about. For weeks, the prediction curves I've seen were never similar ups to downs.

They all had a longer tail with a slower drop in daily cases/deaths than the rise. The exception was China but difficult to be confident on their stats.

 

[JPRouve]

I’m really not. I worry for all ages, we all have different pressures and are all valid!!

I just find a lot of people dismissive of the youth who are whinging and moaning!! I am not saying that I at 34 years old have it worse! But others of a similar age who have expressed angst have been shot down by those that are older, worrying about retirement / their kids futures.

We’re all facing a bleak future but to call younger posters out for whinging / being entitled when at best they’ve made blanket statements like the youth have been shafted (not more shafted) is harsh.

We are not worrying, for a large part we won't be able to retire.

 

[jojojo]

Isn't that a bit flippant? The 2008 recession hit harder and longer than any of the crises post-WWII in most of the world, and the initial signs suggest this crisis will have hit harder and quicker than anything in your lifetime. It might bounce back equally quickly, all we have are projections now, but what we know already sets this apart as something distinctive.

That's only one characteristic of a recession that you've looking at though. If you look at UK unemployment for example, you'll see a different one. Recession and a collapse in manufacturing and the wipe out of whole sectors of the economy.

The changes that followed, destabilised the entire employment market. Higher levels of underemployment - starting from more part-time jobs (and low paid "female" jobs) that steadily migrated into the zero hours and gig economy of today. As the unions were dismantled the constraints on bad employment practices were off.

The biggest difference was that a lot graduate and certain skilled/retrained jobs survived those 80s/90s slumps, and that inflation wiped out a lot of debt - particularly mortgage debt.

The optimist in me thinks we'll see corrections made to the tax system (NI on pensions, and other income like rent etc that should help people who actually go out to work). The pessimist thinks the Rees-Moggs will enjoy super returns on their new investments and we'll all have to pay for them.

 

[Volumiza]

Tbf I sort of said that.

So it’s your fault?

I get what you’re trying to say but I just don’t see how it is helpful creating potential divisions.

We are all in this together. Young will have to help old, old will no doubt help young and those in the middle, like me, are going to have to help both old and young ...

... hang on, feck you all, it’s going to hit my age group worst!

 

[Volumiza]

No one can change their age?

Why the feck did I buy a convertible and start offering the clearly uncomfortable barmaid a few free drinks after work if that is the case?!?

Can I have my leather trousers back now?

 

[golden_blunder]

They aren't mutually exclusive are they?

The elderly are vulnerable to succumbing to the virus.

The young are more vulnerable to the catastrophic economic consequences.

Why does it have to be exclusive to one or the other?

the young may lose jobs but the older may find their pensions or life savings wiped out if it’s based on investments

 

[golden_blunder]

Sucks for them, but the millennials as a generation will suffer the aftereffects of this the most.

For longer perhaps but it’s very dismissive of older folks who are going to be affected for the rest of their time. Businesses which may have been built for years, many will probably close, pensions and savings will be affected negatively.

ive seen this a few times now, I’m not sure why it’s suddenly a ronaldo v Messi type competition. Everyone is fecked, can’t we just agree that?

 

[Feed Me]

Shit certainly rolls downhill. My generation (I'm 44) missed out on final salary pensions and cheap housing, and those younger than fee have now got uni fees, even more indebted country etc...From my generation downwards, vast swathes of people, probably the majority, will never get to retire, so yeah the picture is pretty bleak all round.

Going to uni is a choice. Young people need to be more savvy about choosing to go down that route and saddling themselves with debt for a two bit degree.

 

[Feed Me]

For longer perhaps but it’s very dismissive of older folks who are going to be affected for the rest of their time. Businesses which may have been built for years, many will probably close, pensions and savings will be affected negatively.

ive seen this a few times now, I’m not sure why it’s suddenly a ronaldo v Messi type competition. Everyone is fecked, can’t we just agree that?

End of debate.

 

[golden_blunder]

I agree with this, just weird that older posters said that the young had no right to say that they were forging careers in context of two utter shite economic recessions.

Those older don’t appear to empathise with the youth that are shit scared for their prospects of never getting on the property ladder, or perhaps just have got on the ladder and face a drop of 30% in property prices.

that works both ways, I’ve seen posts where there’s not much empathy for older folks too. They are going to have a tough time too.

 

[MDFC Manager]

Lockdown in India extended to May 3rd.

 

[balaks]

Yeah this is going to impact on everybody in a shitty way. Older folk's pension's are being obliterated, middle age folk are losing jobs with little or no possibility of retraining and many still with hefty mortgages to pay, the younger folk are struggling to get a house and stable employment and many will have lost their jobs. It's a giant shit sandwich and we all gotta take a bite.

 

[golden_blunder]

That's only one characteristic of a recession that you've looking at though. If you look at UK unemployment for example, you'll see a different one. Recession and a collapse in manufacturing and the wipe out of whole sectors of the economy.

The changes that followed, destabilised the entire employment market. Higher levels of underemployment - starting from more part-time jobs (and low paid "female" jobs) that steadily migrated into the zero hours and gig economy of today. As the unions were dismantled the constraints on bad employment practices were off.

The biggest difference was that a lot graduate and certain skilled/retrained jobs survived those 80s/90s slumps, and that inflation wiped out a lot of debt - particularly mortgage debt.

The optimist in me thinks we'll see corrections made to the tax system (NI on pensions, and other income like rent etc that should help people who actually go out to work). The pessimist thinks the Rees-Moggs will enjoy super returns on their new investments and we'll all have to pay for them.

sadly we all know which scenario will play out in those 2 choices and I’ll detest JRM even more than I do now

 

[NinjaFletch]

For longer perhaps but it’s very dismissive of older folks who are going to be affected for the rest of their time. Businesses which may have been built for years, many will probably close, pensions and savings will be affected negatively.

ive seen this a few times now, I’m not sure why it’s suddenly a ronaldo v Messi type competition. Everyone is fecked, can’t we just agree that?

I don't see why we have to pretend like this disease is an equalitarian leveller when we know it isn't. Certain groups of people are going to be hit a lot harder than others, even if it ends up being net shit for everyone (although of course it won't be a small number of rich people will make absolute bank off of it).

I'm not going to make any claims as to who that will be (although we already know the BAME community has been hit particularly hard) and it might be that it's not the younger generation (time will tell), but it's at least worth a conversation as a country so we can see where help needs to be directed the most. I'd argue we have to see how it plays out first, but wailing about the possibility that other people might suffer more than him like Feed Me has been doing doesn't seem that helpful either.

 

[Volumiza]

It's a giant shit sandwich and we all gotta take a bite.

Wash your hands though first

 

[11101]

that works both ways, I’ve seen posts where there’s not much empathy for older folks too. They are going to have a tough time too.

The last few years have created deep divides between age groups in the UK. I'm sure we all see it within our own families. I know a lot of people who feel the previous generations screwed them in 2008 by loading up on cheap debt, which is fair, and i think the majority feel they were screwed by the elderly with Brexit. The virus is nobodies fault but it's not hard to see why there is discontent when the UK has had 3 major negative events in 10 years and 2 of them were directly caused by one or two generations.

 

[Ady87]

ONS figures are out and make for an interesting read. Suggests Care Home and Home deaths have been quite significant. Also suggests the total death figure and covid deaths as a proportion of total deaths are high.

 

[Feed Me]

I don't see why we have to pretend like this disease is an equalitarian leveller when we know it isn't. Certain groups of people are going to be hit a lot harder than others, even if it ends up being net shit for everyone (although of course it won't be a small number of rich people will make absolute bank off of it).

I'm not going to make any claims as to who that will be (although we already know the BAME community has been hit particularly hard) and it might be that it's not the younger generation (time will tell), but it's at least worth a conversation as a country so we can see where help needs to be directed the most. I'd argue we have to see how it plays out first, but wailing about the possibility that other people might suffer more than him like Feed Me has been doing doesn't seem that helpful either.

Firstly, I fall into the bracket that will supposedly be most disproportionately impacted. I just choose not to have a whinge about how hard done by I might be because I have enough self awareness to recognise that everyone will be negatively impacted, not just one small segment of society.

Secondly, it was me who made the point about BAME people being shafted. Meanwhile, I have also talked on this board about my disgust at how forgotten people like the homeless are treated. So I more than agree that we need to have a proper conversation about where the public purse needs to be spent to properly support the rebuild once we are past the worst of this crisis.

Please do some basic fact checking before you start dropping my name and talking shite in future.

 

[Buster15]

Tomorrow or/and Wednesday's figures are going to be frightening.

Especially if they contain deaths outside of hospitals, as France does.

 

[BluesJr]

ONS figures are out and make for an interesting read. Suggests Care Home and Home deaths have been quite significant. Also suggests the total death figure and covid deaths as a proportion of total deaths are high.

Just wash your hands folks. It’s just another flu. Those were good times.

 

[BluesJr]

Like a clueless arsehole?

The worst take I’ve seen all year.

 

[Feed Me]

ONS figures are out and make for an interesting read. Suggests Care Home and Home deaths have been quite significant. Also suggests the total death figure and covid deaths as a proportion of total deaths are high.

I saw this on Sky News this morning but haven’t really dug into it. Is the implication that care home deaths have been attributed to non-Covid-19 factors and therefore not been counted in the death toll?

Edit: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52275823

 

[711]

That's only one characteristic of a recession that you've looking at though. If you look at UK unemployment for example, you'll see a different one. Recession and a collapse in manufacturing and the wipe out of whole sectors of the economy.

The changes that followed, destabilised the entire employment market. Higher levels of underemployment - starting from more part-time jobs (and low paid "female" jobs) that steadily migrated into the zero hours and gig economy of today. As the unions were dismantled the constraints on bad employment practices were off.

The biggest difference was that a lot graduate and certain skilled/retrained jobs survived those 80s/90s slumps, and that inflation wiped out a lot of debt - particularly mortgage debt.

The optimist in me thinks we'll see corrections made to the tax system (NI on pensions, and other income like rent etc that should help people who actually go out to work). The pessimist thinks the Rees-Moggs will enjoy super returns on their new investments and we'll all have to pay for them.

Just from memory the worst years were 74/75, when unemployment went from zero in effect to couldn't get a job unless your relative already worked there.

I agree with you on taxes, particularly national insurance, which disguises who pays what tax in some ways. I would look at wealth taxes as well.

 

[Pexbo]

When all this is said and done and a solution has been found, I wonder if there will be a positive knock on with regards to the fight against other viral and bacterial infections as the world population becomes more educated on sanitation and gets into better habits with regards to washing their hands and the importance of WFH when you have an illness.

I know that not everyone will continue like this and a lot will fall back into old habits but I think there will definitely be a noticeable change.

 

[Wumminator]

I really hope there is a serious discussion about UBI or something similar as a result of this. My dream is that after Corona, we realise how many jobs simply are no longer needed and we allow the elderly to retire earlier.

 

[balaks]

I really hope there is a serious discussion about UBI or something similar as a result of this. My dream is that after Corona, we realise how many jobs simply are no longer needed and we allow the elderly to retire earlier.

That would be lovely but sadly I think the opposite is likely and none of us will be retiring before we are 70.

 

[Feed Me]

When all this is said and done and a solution has been found, I wonder if there will be a positive knock on with regards to the fight against other viral and bacterial infections as the world population becomes more educated on sanitation and gets into better habits with regards to washing their hands and the importance of WFH when you have an illness.

I know that not everyone will continue like this and a lot will fall back into old habits but I think there will definitely be a noticeable change.

You would hope that lessons will be learned but sadly we have heaps of examples of humanity failing to change its ways in the aftermath of disasters.

It goes without saying that personal hygiene should be a focus area, but that feels a little like shutting the barn door after the horse has bolted.

Surely the biggest issue is ensuring a punitive crackdown on wet markets where this sort of virus is widely accepted to have emanated from?

 

[Feed Me]

I really hope there is a serious discussion about UBI or something similar as a result of this. My dream is that after Corona, we realise how many jobs simply are no longer needed and we allow the elderly to retire earlier.

I also hope there’s a remote working revolution which would have major benefits for the environment. We know it can work so there’s no excuses.

 

[fergieisold]

So 1/3 of NHS staff tested are COVID-19 positive. I'd like to know how many are asymptomatic.

 

[Jippy]

When all this is said and done and a solution has been found, I wonder if there will be a positive knock on with regards to the fight against other viral and bacterial infections as the world population becomes more educated on sanitation and gets into better habits with regards to washing their hands and the importance of WFH when you have an illness.

I know that not everyone will continue like this and a lot will fall back into old habits but I think there will definitely be a noticeable change.

Ideally, but on my walks around the neighbourhood during lockdown I've variously seen numerous people spitting on the road, sneezing without covering their nose/mouth and firing snot out of a nostril, so I wouldn't bank on it.

 

[BluesJr]

When all this is said and done and a solution has been found, I wonder if there will be a positive knock on with regards to the fight against other viral and bacterial infections as the world population becomes more educated on sanitation and gets into better habits with regards to washing their hands and the importance of WFH when you have an illness.

I know that not everyone will continue like this and a lot will fall back into old habits but I think there will definitely be a noticeable change.

I’ve not left the house without hand sanitiser in my pocket in around 10 years because I knew how manky everyone’s (in general) hygiene was. Let’s hope this does change that aspect of life.

 

[Pexbo]

Ideally, but on my walks around the neighbourhood during lockdown I've variously seen numerous people spitting on the road, sneezing without covering their nose/mouth and firing snot out of a nostril, so I wouldn't bank on it.

Yeah I appreciate that but on a macro level there's surely going to be an impact. I expect we're going to see a whole new pattern of behaviour around hygiene in shops, public transport, restaurants and offices. Especially with regards to people suffering with any sort of illness being told to WFH.

 

[NinjaFletch]

Firstly, I fall into the bracket that will supposedly be most disproportionately impacted. I just choose not to have a whinge about how hard done by I might be because I have enough self awareness to recognise that everyone will be negatively impacted, not just one small segment of society.

Secondly, it was me who made the point about BAME people being shafted. Meanwhile, I have also talked on this board about my disgust at how forgotten people like the homeless are treated. So I more than agree that we need to have a proper conversation about where the public purse needs to be spent to properly support the rebuild once we are past the worst of this crisis.

Please do some basic fact checking before you start dropping my name and talking shite in future.

Aye, your posts have just been dripping with that over the past few pages when you've been slagging posters off left right and centre for daring to think they might not do well after this.

And, of course, you make that statement in a paragraph where what you have written equates to 'I will suffer worse than anyone and I'm putting on a stiff upper lip so I don't want to hear about anyone else's problems'. You, you have decided, are allowed to be a martyr about how bad things might get, and anyone that deigns to challenge your perceptions and perhaps suggest that things could be worse for other generations (and, hey, maybe they are wrong, time will tell) has been met with snark, accusations of entitlement, and general hostility by you. In fact, not only that but you've attempted to co-opt any idea that the younger generations might suffer by stating that would take some emotional toll on you so, really, that's your cross to bear too.

The irony of all ironies being that you've spent most of the morning whinging about how bad things are for your generation, but apparently not realising you've done that either.

Self aware indeed.

 

[Adisa]

So 1/3 of NHS staff tested are COVID-19 positive. I'd like to know how many are asymptomatic.

How many non Covid patients are being infected at this rate?