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When they stop asking.I have sympathy with countries wanting the return of important artefacts, but I'm just wondering where it would end. I can see ancient/important works of art or sculptures having to move from one country to another all over the world. When things are in museums, at least the public can see them - unlike works of art that disappear into the hands of fabulously-rich private collectors.
I do think we should return the Elgin Marbles, as it seems that they were taken illicitly.
How do you draw the line between art and historical artifact?Ideally — yes. But it's pretty much impossible to produce a fair judgment on this, considering our history. Half of the world's art (well, maybe not half, but a significant part of it) was at some point stolen/taken/bought at the unfair price etc, often multiple times... I'm not only talking about ancient artifacts, even relatively recent paintings and sculptures often came to museum's possessions by questionable methods. Given the lack of certain provenance it's often impossible to find the "original" owner.
If this, individually, is a more straight-forward case, then yes, without a doubt.
How? Say, Da Vinci's The Last Supper and a Roman (Pompei or Stabiae) fresco from the British Museum's collection, what is the difference, except for the fact that the one is older and had been transported to a different country?How do you draw the line between art and historical artifact?
A painting by Leonardo da Vinci is different to a relief that was taken from the Pantheon in Athens.
sorry you've actually missed my point. Both of the examples you've used are the same thing in my opinion. Just paintings... They don't compare to religious/cultural/national artifacts. Paintings are commissioned by individuals. Cultural artifacts are created for the masses and have much higher significance for nations.How? Say, Da Vinci's The Last Supper and a Roman (Pompei or Stabiae) fresco from the British Museum's collection, what is the difference, except for the fact that the one is older and had been transported to a different country?
Trying to find Evertons last trophy?It’s worrying as an archaeologist, the number of colleagues who don’t think that they should. Annoyingly I’m in class at the moment and can’t fully respond to this but yes, absolutely.
As an art historian, I have to disagree with you. Most of the historical artifacts were not created for the public. Especially, say, a sarcophagus, that was literally created just to be buried. Most of the ancient sculptures and reliefs were created for spaces that were only accessible to the handful of people.sorry you've actually missed my point. Both of the examples you've used are the same thing in my opinion. Just paintings... They don't compare to religious/cultural/national artifacts. Paintings are commissioned by individuals. Cultural artifacts are created for the masses and have much higher significance for nations.
@harms
just an edit to add to this. There is a major difference between a Leonardo da Vinci painting and say a Pharaohs sarcophagus.
The example you used was literally torn off the wall of someone's living room...As an art historian, I have to disagree with you. Most of the historical artifacts were not created for the public. Especially, say, a sarcophagus, that was literally created just to be buried. On the other hand, lots of paintings or sculptures were created for the public viewing, and many of them were created to bear a religious or cultural significance, not just to hang in someone’s living room.
Germany has the Queen Nefertiti bust, the Ishtar Gate and various other items that other countries have asked be returned, the same applies to other major museums all over the world. This Moai happens to be in the British Museum, but this whole topic isn't just about the sins of the British Empire.It is kind of a difficult question and I don't think there is a straightforward answer at all times.
So this is about some different culture calling something sacred and demanding it back. What happens if you apply this logic to a piece of land or a country? Should the USA give Hawaii back to the Native Hawaiians? Didn't settlers stole the land from Native Americans? Shouldn't the Caucasians give Australia back to the Indigenous Australians and feck off to England again?
All stolen by the British Empire and it's relatives.
Every topic is about the sins of the British Empire. Gets dull doesn't it.Germany has the Queen Nefertiti bust, the Ishtar Gate and various other items that other countries have asked be returned, the same applies to other major museums all over the world. This Moai happens to be in the British Museum, but this whole topic isn't just about the sins of the British Empire.
It does a bit - I'm not an Empire apologist, but taking cultural artefacts from their country of origin (or even acquiring them through some dubious purchase process a hundred years ago) isn't an exclusively British phenomenon.Every topic is about the sins of the British Empire. Gets dull doesn't it.
Ah ffs, this wasn't to bash the British. Of course other nations have done atrocious things in the past, in the case of Germany those were worse than that of every other nation in history. I just couldn't think of other obvious examples when it came to land being stolen from native people and not returned back. I suppose Latin America has plenty of those cases as well, I don't know enough about that to make a judgement there. I just wanted to know if the people in here think that the logic applied to the artefacts should apply to land as well.Germany has the Queen Nefertiti bust, the Ishtar Gate and various other items that other countries have asked be returned, the same applies to other major museums all over the world. This Moai happens to be in the British Museum, but this whole topic isn't just about the sins of the British Empire.
Pretty sure they're replicas on display in the museum anyway.Let's face it, virtually all the people who see the statue in the British Museum don't hold it in any veneration, they just view it as something unusual. A replica would be just as good for that purpose.
That would be great actually. Worked well in Africa and Asia. But the returning of artifacts will do for nowIt is kind of a difficult question and I don't think there is a straightforward answer at all times.
So this is about some different culture calling something sacred and demanding it back. What happens if you apply this logic to a piece of land or a country? Should the USA give Hawaii back to the Native Hawaiians? Didn't settlers stole the land from Native Americans? Shouldn't the Caucasians give Australia back to the Indigenous Australians and feck off to England again?
All stolen by the British Empire and it's relatives.
Absolutely.The example you used was literally torn off the wall of someone's living room...
A Pharaoh is the leader of a nation, of course their sarcophagus has a much higher importance culturally. And the sarcophagus does not just play the role of a person's burial. Most people buried during the era of Pharaohs were not even mummified let alone buried in a sarcophagus. The significance of a funeral procession for a King or Pharaoh is far greater than an ordinary individual, which is precisely why their coffins are decorated the way they are.
Do you honestly believe that a painting like the Mon Lisa has the same cultural significance as say Tutankhamun's sarcophagus?
It's ultimately much easier though to give back an individual item to its owner than to try and repopulate entire islands or continents. The latter being impractical and impossible doesn't mean we shouldn't do the former.It is kind of a difficult question and I don't think there is a straightforward answer at all times.
So this is about some different culture calling something sacred and demanding it back. What happens if you apply this logic to a piece of land or a country? Should the USA give Hawaii back to the Native Hawaiians? Didn't settlers stole the land from Native Americans? Shouldn't the Caucasians give Australia back to the Indigenous Australians and feck off to England again?
All stolen by the British Empire and it's relatives.
Will you take Essex?Yes.
Also return my counties plz.
