The Casemiro/Mount/Bruno midfield

[Wing Attack Plan R]

What would Mainoo have offered in todays lineup? I think ETH saw him having a starring role this season, so losing one of the cogs right before the start of the season has thwarted his plans.

I think there were problems all over the pitch. Martinez having to come off, Garnacho getting rekt by Semedo, Rashford phasing in and out of existence, Bruno/Eriksen giving the ball away, Casemiro looking leggy and steaming up the pitch , no fullback inversions, and Onana’s vaunted ability to launch attacks nowhere to be found.

Maybe the new Wilves manager is a genius and figured out how to ram his photon torpedo into the exhaust port. His plan worked.

 

[FriedClams]

Good post, Clams.

thanks WAPR

 

[Olecurls99]

It's just a really dumb idea that needs to die a death very quickly, but probably wont because Ten Hag has prioritised signing Mount presumably just to implement it.

I was surprised just how bad Mount was, but then a lot of it was made to look worse because there was no midfield behind him...and Ten Hag seems to think he played well. He offered literally nothing in an attacking or ball winning sense, either lost or pulled out of every single challenge he went for, constantly let Wolves players run off him and kept sacrificing his position to chase the ball around like a kid in the playground. I thought he was a complete disaster, but then he played the same way he does for England and was just put in a role that made it into a massive problem.

Its destroying my faith in Ten Hag tbh because its just such a clearly terrible idea and the performance tonight was so obvious. He's relying on Mount and Fernandes to dictate our play and break up opposition attacks before they start, when both play too advanced to do that and neither are aggressive and/or positionally disciplined enough to do it anyway. Fernandes is also too direct to be used in any sort of controlling role and Mount I've never seen show anything to suggest he has the quality to do it. He can play a nice flick or return ball around the box but he isn't going to get on the turn and start dictating and forcing the opposition to back off him. Casemiro is the only one of the three who can control a game in possession and he can't do it when he's got to cover the midfield ground of 3 players on his own and constantly try to plug gaps.

This is why Eriksen was so important last season, because we needed the extra midfielder who could get on the turn and dictate a game without sacrificing their position. Now we've gone 2 steps backwards. People saying its only one game but these problems aren't going to magically go away or be a one off, because you can't expect players to just change what they are good at to suit a manager's crazy ideas.

Sweet Jesus. Not another false dawn.

 

[mav_9me]

If he does that, then he should have a kitchen sink of criticism thrown at him.

He planned on going with 2 #8s in front of a 6. Make it work.

I'd rather see Amrabat take Casemiro's place vs him dropping Mount entirely and ditching this template/system that most top teams are playing.

I'm sure we'll play better.

Don't disagree on criticism if he abandons his plan. But there is a fine line between sticking up for your beliefs/principles, and being obstinate and not changing what's not working. One of ETH great qualities imo is his pragmatism. So I wouldn't be surprised if he changes things. Having said that I didnt think we were ready to play with two no.8s. I don't think we have the pressing for it, nor do we have the defense for it.

Hopefully you are right about we'll play better.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

We need a playmaker. Feels like I’ve been saying for a decade but no manager seems to agree. Someone who can drop in, take the ball off Martinez and Casmeiro and start running the play. It doesn’t have to be a Scholes or Pirlo level all time great but we need someone who performs that role.

 

[RedCurry]

I thought it would work okay but then I realized that Newcastle bought Tonali for about the same price as we bought Mount. I am having a hard time coming to terms with it now.

 

[Abraxas]

We need a playmaker. Feels like I’ve been saying for a decade but no manager seems to agree. Someone who can drop in, take the ball off Martinez and Casmeiro and start running the play. It doesn’t have to be a Scholes or Pirlo level all time great but we need someone who performs that role.

I think that's the Amrabat idea. People keep harping on about him defensively but his strengths are exactly what you think is missing (and definitely is missing). He's good at dropping into positions and knitting the play together.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I think that's the Amrabat idea. People keep harping on about him defensively but his strengths are exactly what you think is missing (and definitely is missing). He's good at dropping into positions and knitting the play together.

I suppose he’ll do as a stop gap. Doesn’t look the long term solution in terms of the standard of playmaking / overall quality but as someone to plug a hole, he could be a fine addition and will allow for us to spend further down the line on the next top player we identify for the role.

 

[Fortitude]

Don't disagree on criticism if he abandons his plan. But there is a fine line between sticking up for your beliefs/principles, and being obstinate and not changing what's not working. One of ETH great qualities imo is his pragmatism. So I wouldn't be surprised if he changes things. Having said that I didnt think we were ready to play with two no.8s. I don't think we have the pressing for it, nor do we have the defense for it.

Hopefully you are right about we'll play better.

Problem is, to play with two #8's, you need to have two #8's. Neither of these guys are what are typically classed as #8's, so the issue is exacerbated.

 

[berbatrick]

Despite having a much, much better DM (Casemiro vs old Matic or one of McFred), and a Bruno who looked very in-form during pre-season, this was a worse version of the Pogba-Bruno experiment.
Don't see how it works without Shaw becoming an extra CM, and that should help with possession, but it only shifts the gaping hole on the counter from the centre to the left.

 

[Fortitude]

We need a playmaker. Feels like I’ve been saying for a decade but no manager seems to agree. Someone who can drop in, take the ball off Martinez and Casmeiro and start running the play. It doesn’t have to be a Scholes or Pirlo level all time great but we need someone who performs that role.

Teams try to avoid single point failures these days, which is why having multiple players who can beat the press and play out, connecting the play vertically and quickly, is optimal. We don't even have one, let alone multiple and it makes us so sluggish and laboured because we can't seamlessly play between the lines nor trust that we can consistently threaten shred teams with a few seemigly simple actions.

We get attacked and pressured with so little fear, whereas the progressive sides always have that threat which makes the opponent second guess themselves or even regroup rather than go for it every chance they get. We're rarely given that kind of respect.

 

[TheLord]

All three need replacing, or at least, kept as backups if we really want to challenge for major honours. Casemiro no longer has the legs, Mount only has the legs, and Bruno's legs are too erratic. Without a dominant midfield, we will really struggle to score goals.

The squad urgently needs an injection of a creative midfield force, like someone in the mould of Cesc Fabregas.

 

[croadyman]

All three need replacing, or at least, kept as backups if we really want to challenge for major honours. Casemiro no longer has the legs, Mount only has the legs, and Bruno's legs are too erratic. Without a dominant midfield, we will really struggle to score goals.

The squad urgently needs an injection of a creative midfield force, like someone in the mould of Cesc Fabregas.

Get me Onana & Amrabat for NOW,can review the situation again across next two windows

 

[city-puma]

Despite having a much, much better DM (Casemiro vs old Matic or one of McFred), and a Bruno who looked very in-form during pre-season, this was a worse version of the Pogba-Bruno experiment.
Don't see how it works without Shaw becoming an extra CM, and that should help with possession, but it only shifts the gaping hole on the counter from the centre to the left.

Don’t you feel Casemiro has regressed since the later part of last season? More and more leggy.

 

[croadyman]

Don’t you feel Casemiro has regressed since the later part of last season? More and more leggy.

Yeah that's why we need a younger DM

 

[city-puma]

Yeah that's why we need a younger DM

With Glazers, it’s hard. We have no money to make strategic investments on those very promising but already very capable young players.

 

[croadyman]

With Glazers, it’s hard. We have no money to make strategic investments on those very promising but already very capable young players.

We need to feck off Scott to get Onana

 

[Escobar]

Despite having a much, much better DM (Casemiro vs old Matic or one of McFred), and a Bruno who looked very in-form during pre-season, this was a worse version of the Pogba-Bruno experiment.
Don't see how it works without Shaw becoming an extra CM, and that should help with possession, but it only shifts the gaping hole on the counter from the centre to the left.

And then Shaw is missing on the left to overlap, create space and support LW

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

And then Shaw is missing on the left to overlap, create space and support LW

Him inverting inside can create space for the LW too if they(the opposing player) came inside to track him.

 

[Escobar]

Him inverting inside can create space for the LW too if they(the opposing player) came inside to track him.

Which they do not as he is so deep and can be tracked by the striker or midfielder

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Which they do not as he is so deep and can be tracked by the striker or midfielder

I don't think Ten Hag likes Shaw inverting for some reason even though I think he'd be good there. Often times, he's the one dropping to form a back 3.

You might see Ten Hag employ Martinez in that role copying Stones.

 

[DJ_21]

This is a poor combination. Mount and Bruno are to weak and get bullied. Casa is old and can’t do it all on his own. We get by passed so easy. Need some young fresh legs. Onana from Everton would give us a bit more steel and make us more solid. We don’t even have a ball winning midfielder. Fred was the closest thing we had to that.

 

[Escobar]

I don't think Ten Hag likes Shaw inverting for some reason even though I think he'd be good there. Often times, he's the one dropping to form a back 3.

You might see Ten Hag employ Martinez in that role copying Stones.

I also feel this experiment wont last long

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

I also feel this experiment wont last long

Most of our rivals are following the same template.

We should be fine with more time utilizing it(or certain upgrades on players).

 

[kps88]

My guess is we'll get dealt a heavy defeat at Spurs and this system will die a quick death. Similar to how we started last season with Eriksen as a false nine.

 

[RedAlert27]

We had them last year and the approach has been to make it even worse, it doesn't make any sense.

Agreed. The balance is wrong, but the solution seems difficult.

 

[kps88]

Most of our rivals are following the same template.

We should be fine with more time utilizing it(or certain upgrades on players).

They have the players to be able to do it though. Casemiro can't be left isolated and needs people around him. I'm not convinced Shaw is good enough to be inverting either.

 

[Meep]

Casemiro looked totally beat last night. Looked like his legs were made of wood. You can't judge the midfield with this outlier performance from him. Thought Bruno also looked as though he missed the match fitness and the only one that looked strong physically was Mount. But with those to beside him it didn't look good for this game. I'll wait a couple of games before passing judgement.

 

[Borys]

It's clear in this setup that Shaw, Martinez, and to some extent the right back are supposed to do most of the deeper buildup (which is a worry in itself when your RB is AWB, as reasonable as he was tonight). He wants Bruno and Mount receiving it between the lines and turning with the pace and power of Rashford and Hojlund to be opening up space.

Whether that actually works in reality...I'm not sure. I think you need more consistency of build up. Even teams that play very attacking setups tend to have a midfielder that will knit things together (see Rodri for an elite example). Casemiro isn't the best at that. Maybe we put the cart before the horse with this idea.

However it does need a bit more time. Preseason and this game are not promising but it's quite an extreme way of playing that may take some knitting together.

It works. On 2 out of 10 occasions we were able to get the ball quickly to wide areas around the box.
But on 6 out of 10 occasions we lost the ball and Wolves were 3 vs 3 in midfield.

We could only get the ball wide because Wolves packed the central areas and triple marked Rashford.

Wolves tactics were so simple and effective it's almost embarrassing for the manager.

I've expressed my concerns with this setup many times here, and I've been told that ETH wants to play "this" way with Casemiro sitting and Mount/Bruno high. So how far are we from that vision people had in their mind?

 

[UpWithRivers]

I have no idea why people think Ten Haag will change this or buy and play Arambat/Onana. He just bought Mount his priority signing that he wanted so much and gave him the 7 shirt. He then gave Bruno the captaincy. This the the midfield he built and believes in.
He needs to get it to work. How I have no idea. We have been overrun in midfield for years even when we played 2 defensive minded midfielders. How playing two 8/10 midfielders is going to fix that is beyond me but that's why Ten Haag is getting paid the big bucks.

 

[Lentwood]

Rashford’s attempt at #9 hold up play was well short of the required standard. It starts from the front and Rashford was nowhere near to being effective today, and gave up when he lost the ball. Hopefully Hojland is a revelation because Rashford was a ghost.

Rashford not being at #9 needs to be one of the non-negotiables of team selection moving forward. He's absolutely deficient in every single aspect of the game required for a CF, especially in an ETH system. Plus, it takes away a big threat from the left.

 

[Lentwood]

Is the problem with the execution the individuals though? Can that three ever execute it properly?

It's not just whether those three can do it, it's whether the front three can press more effectively too, and whether the CBs can squeeze higher, and whether the full-backs can take up more central positions to plug gaps.

There's no point blaming these three last night. We were overrun because we failed massively as a unit.

 

[sillwuka]

I feel like we are going to spend alot of the time in our own half with this midfield. Casemiro is playing too far away from Mount/Bruno that there's never going to be a link up.

I really hope the boss has something up his sleeve.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

I don't think Ten Hag likes Shaw inverting for some reason even though I think he'd be good there. Often times, he's the one dropping to form a back 3.

You might see Ten Hag employ Martinez in that role copying Stones.

Because he knows Shaw can play CB, where AWB can’t.

 

[Ash_G]

I don't think it's the most balanced trio but I also can't believe that they couldn't play considerably better than they did. We know Bruno can play in a deeper role and I've always understood Mount to be someone who is great as following instructions and therefore I can only believe that the decision to effectively leave Casmiro in the middle alone was a tactical decision. Maybe there was some logic to that at the start of the game but I couldn't understand why we never sought to change it.

Outside of the tactical side of things one repeating trait I feel was was there was our insistence of trying to make every game as chaotic as it can be. It's one thing coming from the younger players like Garnacho and Anthony but Bruno and Rashford are big culprits of it and even Casemiro seemed a bit like a headless chicken at times just running around and vacating the middle completely at times. I really find it hard to see how we will truly push on without somehow reigning this in. Against a more clinical team we will get punished and it's got to take a physical toll on the players as well.

 

[hasanejaz88]

I would hope Amrabat comes in because he would be the perfect player to play alongside Casemiro and Bruno. Having Bruno play deeper is a complete waste of his talents with his goalscoring and playmaking capabilities, so I hope we have a solution where he isn't the one having to drop deep because Mount is struggling with building up play.

You'd also think that Tonali would have been great as well but Newcastle got that deal done quick.

Would also be interesting to see how Dahoud at Brighton plays, he's a press resistant midfielder who can push the ball forward from deep well (abliet he can be very frustrating with his passing at times). I heard he had a good opening game.

 

[Rajiztar]

I think in attacking phase eth not use him fully in my opinion. Players just not gave him enough balls to give impact. Just 30 touches from him shows players not find him enough to impact the game.

Similarly Bruno touched 68 times. That's not good enough for main creator for a team.

They both need to play closer to play intricate one touch passes and move type game to over come the opposition press.

Wolves played well may be so why they didn't impact much. But if mount and Bruno combo need to work they both should play closer and one of the forwards should provide them always an passing outlet.

 

[fallengt]

This is the most unbalanced midfield in top 4.
Make sense that ETH wants team to be fast transition team since none of them can keep the ball for more than 3 seconds.
Against teams that happily sit back and counter like Wolves, they will cause United trouble.

 

[Judas]

In truth, Casemiro was the major issue last night for me. He looked 1000 years old. So slow, clumsy, took forever to do anything, passed it poorly. Hopefully he shakes off the cobwebs, but if he doesn't, we're in a world of trouble.

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

I don’t think many players could successfully play that role that Casemiro is being expected to play now. Casemiro in his prime, ironically, probably could have. Maybe the likes of Caicedo now, but it’s a tough role.