The "lazy black player" stereotype

[sullydnl]

Even if they don't mean it that way, anyone with half a brain should be able to see the racist connotations in calling a black man a gorilla. If you make that comparison then you can't whine about people calling you out on it.

Calling a black player lazy is slightly different as we more commonly call various players lazy without any racist connotations. Ozil is lazy, Berbatov was lazy, Ronaldo was described as lazy at times during his early years here. However, you certainly shouldn't be unaware that "lazy, stupid black players" used to be a stereotype that was flung about quite a bit. I think it would become apparent after a while if a poster was indulging in that stereotype without cause though.

 

[redmeister]

Nope. He'd just realise what a daft question he'd asked. So you think confronting racial stereotyping is idiotic? This is interesting.



He wasn't black. What an odd question.

I think because we know racial stereo typing exists, some people can apply it when it isn't necessary, as you seem to have.

The point with Berbatov, is that is fans think a player is lazy, they call him lazy. Same deal with Lukaku, who happens to be black. You are "confronting" a racial stereo type on the assumption he's being called lazy due to casual racism. You don't see to have a great deal of evidence for this.

 

[Barca84]

Would you please break it down to me how you concluded my comment to be racist? That is a serious allegation. I do not appriciate being dragged in the mud without an explanation.

My apologies Denis. The discussion is about casual racism here on the caf and in particular the degree of racial stereotyping suffered by the likes of Lukaku. I've removed your quote but would be interested in why you think Lukaku shouldn't be believed and what it is that makes him untrustworthy?

 

[Barca84]

I think because we know racial stereo typing exists, some people can apply it when it isn't necessary, as you seem to have.

The point with Berbatov, is that is fans think a player is lazy, they call him lazy. Same deal with Lukaku, who happens to be black. You are "confronting" a racial stereo type on the assumption he's being called lazy due to casual racism. You don't see to have a great deal of evidence for this.

No it does apply. Completely so. I think I've provided some of that evidence and that there's plenty more there in other threads including derogatory comments about his intelligence and his trustworthiness. A basic search on certain terms being used in the various player threads would confirm that for you.

Compared to Herrera, just as an example, this just doesn't happen to the same extent. Yes all players get accused of being crap but it's gone further with Lukaku.

 

[Sterling Archer]

@Barca84 are you fecking serious?!?! You quoted me in your racism thread for saying it was stupid to throw massive bulk in expecting better athletic performance...

I stayed out of this thread because it's a gold mine for nonsense from both sides, as I was made frustratingly aware of when I blew up over a commentator calling Pogba and Kouyate specimens battling. What you've done here is a complete disservice to helping people understand institutional and subconscious racism. You've gone with some scatter gun approach to prove a point here. It's irresponsible and you should be warned.

People do stupid things. There's nothing wrong with calling stupid stupid. I have a huge issue with the myriad proteinaholics infiltrating the fitness and well being scene. It's not scientifically sound and it's not rocket science to know that. It doesn't matter if you're black, white , male or female. It's stupid to think working towards some aesthetic goal equates to athletic fitness. The word bulking itself is unrelated to strengthening. And I'm sure it's a similar difference in meaning across the five languages Lukaku knows. It's a garbage excuse and he was either saving face with a comment or truly believed it. If he believed it, it was stupid of him and moreso his entire coaching staff. If it was to save face for getting fat, it was meant to appease the stupid group that thinks everyone needs more protein. The last thing it was is racist. So get the feck out.

 

[Bola]

No.

Then I suggest you go back to that post and remove the reference to the 'white lads' or provide something to back up your claim that the comments are from 'white lads'

 

[SteveTheRed]

It doesn't have to be explicit to exist. History casts a long shadow: descriptions of black sportspeople sometimes bear resemblance to slave-owners discussing which slave is a good or bad worker, placid or 'troublesome '. Part of the praise the excellent footballer Kante receives is surely down to the fact that he 'doesn't make a fuss', isn't outspoken (read: 'uppity'), isn't 'flashy' etc etc; the implication is that he's earned our shabby praise because his humility makes him acceptable in our society, according to our so-called standards. This isn't just about his footballing qualities.

This is a stretch!

There are loads of footballers, who are praised for not being flashy, making a fuss. Scholes, Iniesta, Xavi etc. It's bollocks to say it resembles a description of a slave owner discussing slaves.

If we carry on this way, everything anyone says can be analysed and misconstrued to sound racist.

 

[Denis79]

My apologies Denis. The discussion is about casual racism here on the caf and in particular the degree of racial stereotyping suffered by the likes of Lukaku. I've removed your quote but would be interested in why you think Lukaku shouldn't be believed and what it is that makes him untrustworthy?

Because I believe his body is in his hands, if he wants to slim down he can. He has professional dietists around him and expert coaches. I believe his size might have hampered his football a bit but he's even "bigger" now than in the world cup. It's been almost 5 months since the world cup ended. Why I'm calling it excuses.

Edit: I'm not calling him lazy because I know he isn't. You don't get this far by being lazy. I'm saying he chose to bulk up and now he can choose to bulk down without making excuses.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Goddammit I'm worked up now. What's worse is in that same feckin thread I made several insensitive cracks, albeit attempting to be satirical, about Lukaku's penis. That could genuinely be offensive and yet you've gone and picked on calling a decision, stupid. Not even the player .Just his decision. Feck me, that's irony for you.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Calling Lukaku a gorilla is obviously racist. Calling Lukaku lazy is an astute assessment of his recent performances.

/thread?

 

[witchtrials]

No it does apply. Completely so. I think I've provided some of that evidence and that there's plenty more there in other threads including derogatory comments about his intelligence and his trustworthiness. A basic search on certain terms being used in the various player threads would confirm that for you.

Compared to Herrera, just as an example, this just doesn't happen to the same extent. Yes all players get accused of being crap but it's gone further with Lukaku.

Exactly. The point is that some people are far quicker to reach for that grab bag of ready made criticisms when they're upset with black players: lazy, thick, attitude problem. The fact that white players get called some of the same things is beside the point, the point is that black players get it more.

Incidentally, of the three I'd say that in current football parlance "attitude problems" is probably the most perniciously racist - it's overwhelmingly applied to black players.

 

[redmeister]

No it does apply. Completely so. I think I've provided some of that evidence and that there's plenty more there in other threads including derogatory comments about his intelligence and his trustworthiness. A basic search on certain terms being used in the various player threads would confirm that for you.

Compared to Herrera, just as an example, this just doesn't happen to the same extent. Yes all players get accused of being crap but it's gone further with Lukaku.

Lukaku cost 75 million, which is a Premier League record for a striker and the 2nd most expensive purchase in Prem history! SO of course he comes under more scrutiny than other players when he's disappointing. Every "stereotype" you mention is used commonly to criticize footballers of all races. Ultimately if you are the most expensive striker in Premier League history and playing poorly, all aspects of your game and personality will come under scrutiny as people try to understand why expectations aren't being met. With so much post match analysis showing him not making runs or making poor decisions, of course he'll be labelled as lazy or unintelligent by some fans. It's not related to his race.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Then I suggest you go back to that post and remove the reference to the 'white lads' or provide something to back up your claim that the comments are from 'white lads'

and I completely forgot to lose my sh*t on that too! Because my forum name is that of a fictional, white cartoon I was also categorized as a white lad

@Barca84 you've really dropped a turd here, mate.
You probably apologize and shut this down

 

[Bola]

Exactly. The point is that some people are far quicker to reach for that grab bag of ready made criticisms when they're upset with black players: lazy, thick, attitude problem. The fact that white players get called some of the same things is beside the point, the point is that black players get it more.

Incidentally, of the three I'd say that in current football parlance "attitude problems" is probably the most perniciously racist - it's overwhelmingly applied to black players.

Have you got some stats on this, or is this just your opinion?

 

[Jippy]

More than a glimmer pal. The thing with casual racism 2 man is that it's all over the shop. Just a few comments from that thread -

























His player performance thread is a mine of such comments also.

A lot of white lads getting very worked up in here.

How can you be sure that these posters are all 'white lads'?

 

[tedketterman]

Donkeys are sure footed animals, very prudent and they can take massive workload.

They're shite at football though.

 

[sullydnl]

Calling Lukaku a gorilla is obviously racist. Calling Lukaku lazy is an astute assessment of his recent performances.

/thread?

He's not actually lazy though, is he? I mean he played nearly every game for us last season, even when he was clearly exhausted. He then played a full world cup for Belgium and came back from holiday early to help us out with an injury crisis. The amount of muscle he's put on is down to extra effort too, not lack of it. You don't do all that if you're actually a lazy person.

 

[witchtrials]

Have you got some stats on this, or is this just your opinion?

Do you ask that question equally often about all types of claim or are you more obsessive about it when it comes to anti-racist ones? Please prove your answer with stats.

 

[shamans]

More than a glimmer pal. The thing with casual racism 2 man is that it's all over the shop. Just a few comments from that thread -

























His player performance thread is a mine of such comments also.

A lot of white lads getting very worked up in here.

Are you serious? For me to say "this guy is full of excuses" is racism

 

[villain]

Do you ask that question equally often about all types of claim or are you more obsessive about it when it comes to anti-racist ones? Please prove your answer with stats.

I love this energy.

 

[KirkDuyt]

He's not actually lazy though, is he? I mean he played nearly every game for us last season, even when he was clearly exhausted. He then played a full world cup for Belgium and came back from holiday early to help us out with an injury crisis. The amount of muscle he's put on is down to extra effort too, not lack of it. You don't do all that if you're actually a lazy person.

Being a world class athlete I think we can all agree that no, Lukaku is not lazy in the historical sense of the word. However, his lack of runs can quite easily be construed as playing in a lazy way. That being said, my point was mostly, that you can call any player lazy, just don't use comparisons to animals historically linked with certain races in a derogatory matter so,

Lukaku is lazy! Fine.

Lukaku is such a lazy gorilla! Racist.

 

[sullydnl]

Being a world class athlete I think we can all agree that no, Lukaku is not lazy in the historical sense of the word. However, his lack of runs can quite easily be construed as playing in a lazy way. That being said, my point was mostly, that you can call any player lazy, just don't use comparisons to animals historically linked with certain races in a derogatory matter so,

Lukaku is lazy! Fine.

Lukaku is such a lazy gorilla! Racist.

Yep, sounds about fair to me.

 

[Varun]

More than a glimmer pal. The thing with casual racism 2 man is that it's all over the shop. Just a few comments from that thread -

























His player performance thread is a mine of such comments also.

A lot of white lads getting very worked up in here.

You've quoted a bunch of posters accusing them of racism when the majority of these posts have nothing racist about hen unless you've read their minds. While the underlying point of your thread is fine, let's not turn this into a baseless shit fest.

 

[sullydnl]

I love this energy.

 

[Bola]

Do you ask that question equally often about all types of claim or are you more obsessive about it when it comes to anti-racist ones? Please prove your answer with stats.

I tend to ask for evidence when a claim is not obvious or clear cut. For example, I don't question claims or ask for stats that racism towards black players in the 70s and early 80s was particularly rife.

Regarding you own claim, i take it your response is a no then. Here is so ething for you to consider, when making claims or form strong opinions, its best to do this with some form of evidence, its a useful way of testing fallibility, such as challenging a bias that an imdividual may not be conscious of.

 

[El-Cucy Ferguson]

To be perfectly honest, I don't think this is necessarily true, at least at the highest levels.

I haven't read a lot of the replies to this thread so I don't know if someone has already made this point.

Cast your mind to exactly a decade and name, for the past 10 years, the hardest working footballers you can think of.

Here's my list: N'golo Kante, Park Ji Sung, Dirk Kuyt, Didier Drogba.

Now think of the laziest.

Mine are: Dimitar Berbatov, Adebayor, Podolski

There's not a lot of ethnicity centric bias going on here.

I've never seen a "lazy black player" stereotype to be honest.

I've seen a "Lazy South American player" stereotype - the likes of Ronaldinho, Adriano, Robinho's etc etc. Peak at 22, stop caring at 27 kind of players. They get that reputation not from their skin color but from a geographical location they were from and, quite possibly culture.

Is that a fair stereotype? Probably not, but you can see why it sometimes exists.

I think the stereotype was never based on the skin colour of the player, but the geographical location. It's just a very unfortunate coincidence that people from that geographical location are darker skinned.

 

[witchtrials]

I tend to ask for evidence when a claim is not obvious or clear cut..

That's weird because the search function suggests this is the only context in which you've asked for stats.

 

[Jig1234]

When analysis is carried on footballers who happen to be black the general theme of the discuss tends to focus on their physical attributes or body language. Many in the media struggle to discuss black footballers without falling into the trap of using stereotypical black footballer superlatives like ‘big, powerful and strong’. Whereas discusses on White players are centred around technical ability.

I think this happens unconsciously. We aren't aware we are doing it. The media play a high part.

We have too many pundits and ex-pros in the game who can't avoid this. I love listening to certain pundits like Eniola Aluko, Danny Higginbotham or Alex Scott Mainly because they clearly studied teams closely. They don't turn up unprepared, they do some research, have interesting anecdotes. Football analysis should be meaningful and insightful.

But this isn't the case for many of the others, you hear the same superlatives being reeled off every week and that will naturally rub off us as as viewers, because we watch football every week and are taking in views, opinions on tv, radio all the time, and it must have a unconsciously effect on us too.

Being an ex-professional footballer should not automatically mean you are qualified to speak about football, because these views are heard by millions and it shapes our view too. We should have bigger expectations of people in the media. There should be more emphasis on finding people who can articulate their point intelligently rather than just saying xyz is 'lazy'.

 

[Bola]

That's weird because the search function suggests this is the only context in which you've asked for stats.

From your analysis of my posts, are there any specific incidences where you I believe I should have asked for stats or evidence in relation to a claim made about a serious social problem?

 

[HTG]

Being a world class athlete I think we can all agree that no, Lukaku is not lazy in the historical sense of the word. However, his lack of runs can quite easily be construed as playing in a lazy way. That being said, my point was mostly, that you can call any player lazy, just don't use comparisons to animals historically linked with certain races in a derogatory matter so,

Lukaku is lazy! Fine.

Lukaku is such a lazy gorilla! Racist.

Nope. It’s not that simple.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Not picking sides, but if you make a claim the burden of proof is on you, not on the one disputing your claim.

Don't deflect, that's such a Trump thing to do.

@HTG

What is not that simple?

 

[JPRouve]

By the way Hangeland's lazy eleven was a good laugh.

 

[Bola]

When analysis is carried on footballers who happen to be black the general theme of the discuss tends to focus on their physical attributes or body language. Many in the media struggle to discuss black footballers without falling into the trap of using stereotypical black footballer superlatives like ‘big, powerful and strong’. Whereas discusses on White players are centred around technical ability.

I think this happens unconsciously. We aren't aware we are doing it. The media play a high part.

We have too many pundits and ex-pros in the game who can't avoid this. I love listening to certain pundits like Eniola Aluko, Danny Higginbotham or Alex Scott Mainly because they clearly studied teams closely. They don't turn up unprepared, they do some research, have interesting anecdotes. Football analysis should be meaningful and insightful.

But this isn't the case for many of the others, you hear the same superlatives being reeled off every week and that will naturally rub off us as as viewers, because we watch football every week and are taking in views, opinions on tv, radio all the time, and it must have a unconsciously effect on us too.

Being an ex-professional footballer should not automatically mean you are qualified to speak about football, because these views are heard by millions and it shapes our view too. We should have bigger expectations of people in the media. There should be more emphasis on finding people who can articulate their point intelligently rather than just saying xyz is 'lazy'.

Good post. There is a general issue with the level of analysis provided by pundits in all forms of media. Seems a lot of the rock up without any research or prior analysis and trot out lazy myths, generalisations or wide assumptions. I can see how lazy generalisations based on appearence (including race) can creep into the media along with stuff like 'Jose is a great manager' (his performances this season say otherwise), 'Liverpool are always scintlating in attack' (they went through a spell of fairly pragmatic and bland football this season),

I do like the 'undersung' pundits that you mention. They seem to do their homework before opening their mouths

 

[witchtrials]

From your analysis of my posts, are there any specific incidences where you I believe I should have asked for stats or evidence in relation to a claim made about a serious social problem?

OK, we can start with the peer reviewed studies demonstrating the point below.

I find that a lot of groups and advocates of 'anti-racism' or 'equality' are only in it for a certain group and are not looking to remove racism/ discrimination across the board

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

But ... but Lukaku is lazy right now.

Like, just watch him. He barely moves and is currently one of the most immobile strikers in the league, watching him against Liverpool was painful and I'm not even a United fan.

It was the same with Kenywyne Jones. The guy used to float around in the most languid style possible, it's pretty hard to not call a spade a spade. It's circumstances like this which just confuse me, are people meant to directly avoid calling a player lazy (even if he is clearly lazy) in case they offend people who might think it's just a stereotype, rather than an accurate way to describe a player?

 

[Deleted member 101472]

This is a stretch!

There are loads of footballers, who are praised for not being flashy, making a fuss. Scholes, Iniesta, Xavi etc. It's bollocks to say it resembles a description of a slave owner discussing slaves.

If we carry on this way, everything anyone says can be analysed and misconstrued to sound racist.

The definition of racism as a crime in Scotland is that it is any act perceived to be racist by the person or any other person. So basically perception is everything, and if I find something racist and complain about it it’s up to the person and their lawyer to prove in court why it wasn’t.

Not sure what the wording of the law is for other counties

 

[Pagh Wraith]

A gorilla is naturally one of the first things to that comes to mind when thinking of someone who's big and immobile. So the poster might not even gave been thinking about Lukaku's skin colour. It should also be clear that such words cannot be used when talking about black people for obvious reasons. It ends there really.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

But ... but Lukaku is lazy right now.

Like, just watch him. He barely moves and is currently one of the most immobile strikers in the league, watching him against Liverpool was painful and I'm not even a United fan.

It was the same with Kenywyne Jones. The guy used to float around in the most languid style possible, it's pretty hard to not call a spade a spade. It's circumstances like this which just confuse me, are people meant to directly avoid calling a player lazy (even if he is clearly lazy) in case they offend people who might think it's just a stereotype, rather than an accurate way to describe a player?

Why isn’t the saying “is pretty hard not to call a heart a heart”?

 

[Bola]

OK, we can start with the peer reviewed studies demonstrating the point below.

Here is one example from BLM. Seems to have a particular focus on further the plight of a certain group, rather than seeking equality and fairness

https://www.leoweekly.com/2017/08/white-people/

You could find more if you do some I tenet research yourself. Maybe you will find some stats to back up your claim

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Here is one example from BLM. Seems to have a particular focus on further the plight of a certain group, rather than seeking equality and fairness

https://www.leoweekly.com/2017/08/white-people/

You could find more if you do some I tenet research yourself. Maybe you will find some stats to back up your claim

I lost braincells reading that article, and that's really irritating since I didn't have many to work with in the first place.