The MMA thread

[Fortitude]

I didn’t have Rogan, as I live in another country. I had a very passive/dull Thiago Santo as a guest commentator with Minotauro.

Santos felt like Jones edged it too, but that’s the fight game.

I was expecting that vicious and explosive Jones to come along as Reyes started to tire, but he never did. I don’t think he is capable of it anymore, be that miles on the clock or steroid abuse.

It’s impossible to rub out that asterix beside his name now, as he doesn’t seem to be able to show that insane level post-steroid drama.

He is still very good and has a great IQ, but I think he lost last night and his experience and the judges got him through.

Someone has a massive opportunity with Jones, because it’s starting to become more apparent that he is there to be taken. The gap is still there, but it is as small as it has ever been.

It's extremely hard to tell whether it is age or: him not being out of his mind on recreational drugs (wildness and inhibition removed - feeling of invincibility etc.); or USADA because everything conflates and the guy is 32 years old (33 in July), after all.

I've knocked Jones for his boxing throughout this thread, but there is no doubt at all that he is improving in that department and applying new methodology because of it, which could be a reason for his approach, too; all that out there wild stuff he used to do is not contingent with dedicated and concerted walk down, boxing strategy - the old Jones would not stay in the pocket at the ranges he does now and the old Jones had more susceptibility to good boxing (which I've bemoaned a lot in this thread over the years, or at least been adamant it'd be the inlet to defeating him). He is seeing, and rolling with punches now and not taking a fraction of the damage Rogan's wailing (HE'S BEEN HIT! BIG SHOT! BIG SHOT! etc.) would have people believe. Jones caught Reyes with a number of counter jabs and hits to the body last night and maintained his walk down pressure because of the confidence he had in his boxing (defence as well as offense) it comes across as a method to conserve energy whilst applying a lot of mental pressure as his opponent still has to be wary of the Greco and the attempted knee hyper extensions.

Perhaps, with the age and experience he has, this is an organic process? He has only upped his boxing since returning and it wasn't a skillset that was available to him a couple of years ago, so not something he could adopt in fights like these even if he wanted to. In the past, it'd be elbows and knees into Thai clinches and the wrestling, which leaves openings for uppercuts and smooth, slide away counter punchers that are not there with Jones using his length to punch now.

This iteration of Jones looks more beatable though in the sense he is constantly in the pocket and running more risks to achieve his objectives, that may be an illusion, but it's hard to discern until we genuinely see him rocked or caught flush with anything.

So far, only Gus (1st fight) and Cormier (1st fight) have shown the heart and ability to match Jones in the Championship rounds, beneath it all, the guy has more heart and gameness to him than is acknowledged and he also has a crazy chin and hit tolerance, so it will take something special to match that alongside his stamina, clarity of purpose and experience. Reyes rematching him is the fight to make, and it would be very interesting indeed to see if that went the way all his other rematches have (systematic deconstruction and decisive victory) or whether Reyes will grow from the first fight like Jones usually does.

This is the first time I've thought the old Jones has departed, but this new Jones has the potential for growth behind the boxing - there is always the GSP route if his jab continues to improve, even.

 

[Maluco]

It's extremely hard to tell whether it is age or: him not being out of his mind on recreational drugs (wildness and inhibition removed - feeling of invincibility etc.); or USADA because everything conflates and the guy is 32 years old (33 in July), (after all).

I've knocked Jones for his boxing throughout this thread, but there is no doubt at all that he is improving in that department and applying new methodology because of it, which could be a reason for his approach, too; all that out there wild stuff he used to do is not contingent with dedicated and concerted walk down, boxing strategy - the old Jones would not stay in the pocket at the ranges he does now and the old Jones had more susceptibility to good boxing (which I've bemoaned a lot in this thread over the years, or at least been adamant it'd be the inlet to defeating him). He is seeing, and rolling with punches now and not taking a fraction of the damage Rogan's wailing (HE'S BEEN HIT! BIG SHOT! BIG SHOT! etc.) would have people believe. Jones caught Reyes with a number of counter jabs and hits to the body last night and maintained his walk down pressure because of the confidence he had in his boxing (defence as well as offense) it comes across as a method to conserve energy whilst applying a lot of mental pressure as his opponent still has to be wary of the Greco and the attempted knee hyper extensions.

Perhaps, with the age and experience he has, this is an organic process? He has only upped his boxing since returning and it wasn't a skillset that was available to him a couple of years ago, so not something he could adopt in fights like these even if he wanted to. In the past, it'd be elbows and knees into Thai clinches and the wrestling, which leaves openings for uppercuts and smooth, slide away counter punchers that are not there with Jones using his length to punch now.

This iteration of Jones looks more beatable though in the sense he is constantly in the pocket and running more risks to achieve his objectives, that may be an illusion, but it's hard to discern until we genuinely see him rocked or caught flush with anything.

So far, only Gus (1st fight) and Cormier (1st fight) have shown the heart and ability to match Jones in the Championship rounds, beneath it all, the guy has more heart and gameness to him than is acknowledged and he also has a crazy chin and hit tolerance, so it will take something special to match that alongside his stamina, clarity of purpose and experience. Reyes rematching him is the fight to make, and it would be very interesting indeed to see if that went the way all his other rematches have (systematic deconstruction and decisive victory) or whether Reyes will grow from the first fight like Jones usually does.

This is the first time I've thought the old Jones has departed, but this new Jones has the potential for growth behind the boxing - there is always the GSP route if his jab continues to improve, even.

This is a good post and is definitely food for thought. I was impressed with how calm he was in boxing exchanges, and like you say, his confidence in applying pressure too.

I just don’t feel like he was ever sure he was winning. It’s hard for me to believe that this is a strategical choice when he is leaving decisions so tight.

He still has many gifts but the contrast in style, coming so close to the picogram debate, suggests someone who is using the skills they have to find a way because of diminished capacity. He just doesn’t look capable of being the fighter he was before.

 

[George Owen]

In no universe Jones won the fight.

 

[Fortitude]

This is a good post and is definitely food for thought. I was impressed with how calm he was in boxing exchanges, and like you say, his confidence in applying pressure too.

I just don’t feel like he was ever sure he was winning. It’s hard for me to believe that this is a strategical choice when he is leaving decisions so tight.

He still has many gifts but the contrast in style, coming so close to the picogram debate, suggests someone who is using the skills they have to find a way because of diminished capacity. He just doesn’t look capable of being the fighter he was before.

But, as with all 'GOAT' (somebody forgive me) sports people, this comparison is made of them compared to themselves when we need to factor in the opposition as well. You said the gap is closing somewhat between him and his opponents, but there's so much for them to navigate and no certainty that what we've seen of him with the boxing is the finished article - who's to say we don't see him shoot off on another tangent as a GSP-type who just makes things as dry and staid as possible behind rock solid fundamentals, athleticism (his stamina and hit resistance is still top percentile) and experience, for example?

I've had to re-frame my thinking of him since the fight and consider that maybe he simply does not have what I thought he did in reserve (I said he'd beat Reyes comfortably if he took him seriously), but in doing so, considering where he can branch out to, whilst no longer spectacular, it is a ridiculously difficult package to contend with.

Reyes will have to show the same capacity for growth as Jones, imo, otherwise a rematch will be anti-climatic in the same way both the Gus and Cormier fights were.

 

[DVG7]

The Joe Rogan “OHHHHH” needs to be stopped. It definitely impacts the casual viewers interpretation of what’s happening. Neither fighter was badly hurt last night but you wouldn’t know that.

 

[Raoul]

The Joe Rogan “OHHHHH” needs to be stopped. It definitely impacts the casual viewers interpretation of what’s happening. Neither fighter was badly hurt last night but you wouldn’t know that.

Don’t forget the “He’s hurt”!!! as well.

 

[mu4c_20le]

The Joe Rogan “OHHHHH” needs to be stopped. It definitely impacts the casual viewers interpretation of what’s happening. Neither fighter was badly hurt last night but you wouldn’t know that.

I used to be afan of his OTT persona but it's become ridiculous in recent years. The amount of times he states conclusively that a finish is about to happen, only for the fighter to easily escape, is beyond pathetic now.

 

[Maluco]

The product has probably outgrown Rogan now. Guys like Cormier, Bisping and Felder offer way more. But he is a personality who is well known and gets eyes on the product, casual eyes too. I love his enthusiasm for the sport.

There seems to be an inference in this thread though that guys who think Reyes was hard done by are casual and swayed by an “ohhhhhhhhhh” from a commentator.

This is rubbish, and can be dismissed easily. Only English speaking markets have access to Rogan and the many tweets and instagram posts from trainers and fighters who also thought Reyes won, let’s you know just how close it was.

This is definitely not a case of “stupid casuals just can’t see what Jones is doing”

The fight really was that close and Reyes really did outstrike him for 3/5 rounds.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

How do you know this ?

The golden snitch has even said its nigh impossible for them as they are always playing catch up. Someone somewhere is always bringing something new out and USADA need to catch up.

I think Yoel has even said that he has previously used PEDs in his past.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

It Was an interesting fight, did think Reyes went hell for leather in those first 2 rounds and Jones just kept walking him down making him work. That’s probably a bit of inexperience or maybe he thought his best chance was just to go balls to the wall and see if he can put Jones away.

To Jones credit he did a pretty good job of rolling with punches or just getting far enough away so the punch didn’t have that much power on it or just miss. Reyes certainly one to watch for the future as he showed a lot I felt last night but Jones intelligence just got it done for me. It was close very close but those last 2 rounds for sure Jones.

Im still cringing from one of those kicked where they both threw and went shin to shin... gives me nightmares that stuff.

Oh and Rogan needs to shut up. I don’t normally mind him but it seemed like he was ultra baked last night. Shots that weren’t even landing “oh he hurt him” “oh, ohhhhhh”

Valentina just a buzz saw. Glad she smashed Chookagin honestly can’t stand her. There a difference between running and having good footwork. I know she has to talk a good game but Jeez.

Surely there is now only Calderwood that makes any sense. Pretty sure Joanne will get destroyed but she is a game fighter more so than chookagin. Just a shame she seems to like to take a hit to give a hit and against Valentina I can see her getting properly worked over.

How quick did Valentina get her in to that crucifix last night as well. She recognised it instantly and the way she got her knee over was so slick.

 

[mariachi-19]

Almost every UFC division looks reigned by a very dominant fighter as of now. Who will be the first to be dethroned?

I can't imagine Cejudo, Khabib, Adesanya, Usman, Jones, Valentina or Amanda being defeated by anyone in their divisions now. I think Volkanovski, Miocic or Zhang have their positions in a more vulnerable situation. Who will be the next title surprise?

Man, can't wait for the next two belt fights! They look so on paper

Been like this for as long as I can remember.

Silva;
St Pierre; and
BJ Penn as examples.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

Don’t forget the “He’s hurt”!!! as well.

Also the:

"He's in a horrible position. I think that's it folks. He's gonna tap."

Then the guy that's apparently about to tap just switched positions and all danger is gone

 

[Fortitude]

The Joe Rogan “OHHHHH” needs to be stopped. It definitely impacts the casual viewers interpretation of what’s happening. Neither fighter was badly hurt last night but you wouldn’t know that.

The way Dom calmly corrects him, or at least lays down the reality is refreshing, but Rogan definitely carries the power of influence.

 

[Fortitude]

It Was an interesting fight, did think Reyes went hell for leather in those first 2 rounds and Jones just kept walking him down making him work. That’s probably a bit of inexperience or maybe he thought his best chance was just to go balls to the wall and see if he can put Jones away.

To Jones credit he did a pretty good job of rolling with punches or just getting far enough away so the punch didn’t have that much power on it or just miss. Reyes certainly one to watch for the future as he showed a lot I felt last night but Jones intelligence just got it done for me. It was close very close but those last 2 rounds for sure Jones.

Im still cringing from one of those kicked where they both threw and went shin to shin... gives me nightmares that stuff.

Oh and Rogan needs to shut up. I don’t normally mind him but it seemed like he was ultra baked last night. Shots that weren’t even landing “oh he hurt him” “oh, ohhhhhh”

Valentina just a buzz saw. Glad she smashed Chookagin honestly can’t stand her. There a difference between running and having good footwork. I know she has to talk a good game but Jeez.

Surely there is now only Calderwood that makes any sense. Pretty sure Joanne will get destroyed but she is a game fighter more so than chookagin. Just a shame she seems to like to take a hit to give a hit and against Valentina I can see her getting properly worked over.

How quick did Valentina get her in to that crucifix last night as well. She recognised it instantly and the way she got her knee over was so slick.

She really is incredible. Everything is so crisp, clean and precise and also potentially fight-endingly lethal. I think only MM transitioned faster than she does and that's about the highest credit I can give.

It's great to watch because you never know what she'll do next.

re. Jones, I don't think Reyes was prepped for that kind of walk down pressure - his camp would probably have been aimed at getting past Jones kicks and keep away from range and also preparing for the Jones who had poorer head movement and more susceptibility to punches, but none of that was there.

I think Jones' lack of power would have played a part in the approach to the first rounds, too, as Reyes knew (or believed) in a fire fight he'd be the benefactor, in terms of power, plus his takedown defence was magnificent and he must surely have had belief in it, so Jones had to give him something to respect and also make him work at a rate he didn't see coming.

It's pretty interesting that Jones barely went for the majority of the 8 points and I wonder if it was because of concern about counters coming in as well as Reyes crazy backfoot power on breaks from clinches. He [Jones] really did let his fists do most of the talking. Glad you caught the shin to shins; these guys were displaying their balls from the get go!

 

[Vato]

So far, only Gus (1st fight) and Cormier (1st fight) have shown the heart and ability to match Jones in the Championship rounds

Don't forget Santos. On just one leg too.

Reyes put on a great fight but didn't do enough to win imo. Jones is the goat for me, he will probably retire undefeated unless he goes to heavyweight.

I'd love to see him shut Adesanya up, but I doubt it will ever happen unfortunately.

 

[RedFish]

It Was an interesting fight, did think Reyes went hell for leather in those first 2 rounds and Jones just kept walking him down making him work. That’s probably a bit of inexperience or maybe he thought his best chance was just to go balls to the wall and see if he can put Jones away.

To Jones credit he did a pretty good job of rolling with punches or just getting far enough away so the punch didn’t have that much power on it or just miss. Reyes certainly one to watch for the future as he showed a lot I felt last night but Jones intelligence just got it done for me. It was close very close but those last 2 rounds for sure Jones.

Im still cringing from one of those kicked where they both threw and went shin to shin... gives me nightmares that stuff.

Oh and Rogan needs to shut up. I don’t normally mind him but it seemed like he was ultra baked last night. Shots that weren’t even landing “oh he hurt him” “oh, ohhhhhh”

Valentina just a buzz saw. Glad she smashed Chookagin honestly can’t stand her. There a difference between running and having good footwork. I know she has to talk a good game but Jeez.

Surely there is now only Calderwood that makes any sense. Pretty sure Joanne will get destroyed but she is a game fighter more so than chookagin. Just a shame she seems to like to take a hit to give a hit and against Valentina I can see her getting properly worked over.

How quick did Valentina get her in to that crucifix last night as well. She recognised it instantly and the way she got her knee over was so slick.

Aye, hope JoJo gets the next shot....

Of course she won't win. Valentina I think pound for pound is is right at the top end when considering the most well-rounded fighters in the whole of MMA. There simply is no weakness.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Aye, hope JoJo gets the next shot....

Of course she won't win. Valentina I think pound for pound is is right at the top end when considering the most well-rounded fighters in the whole of MMA. There simply is no weakness.

She is undoubtedly the best in her weight class but with all due respect, the women's flyweight is arguably the weakest division in the entire UFC. Her best career win IMHO is joanna, who is smaller than her.

 

[Raoul]

 

[Andersons Dietician]

She is undoubtedly the best in her weight class but with all due respect, the women's flyweight is arguably the weakest division in the entire UFC. Her best career win IMHO is joanna, who is smaller than her.

She out classed Nunes and was robbed by shoddy judging. She’s the top of the iceberg in woman’s MMA.

Shes beaten Holly Holmes, Juliana Pena and she did this at 135 at a weight class where the girls were much bigger than her.

 

[Raoul]

She is undoubtedly the best in her weight class but with all due respect, the women's flyweight is arguably the weakest division in the entire UFC. Her best career win IMHO is joanna, who is smaller than her.

Did you see the two Nunes fights ? She nearly beat her....twice. The first fight was one of her earliest UFC fights and the 2nd was broadly viewed as a controversial decision.

 

[giorno]

I think Reyes punched himself out in the first 3 rounds more than anything

That said, i also think he won all 3 rounds, and the fight

 

[Fener1907]

She is undoubtedly the best in her weight class but with all due respect, the women's flyweight is arguably the weakest division in the entire UFC. Her best career win IMHO is joanna, who is smaller than her.

That isn't just the result of a weak division. She is technically brilliant, and having a small size advantage (they're actually the same height, and Valentina hardly packs on slabs of muscle) wouldn't alone account for just how much she dominated in the Joanna fight.

 

[Oggmonster]

Why does that fat, jovial journo always get the first question at pressers ?

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That isn't just the result of a weak division. She is technically brilliant, and having a small size advantage (they're actually the same height, and Valentina hardly packs on slabs of muscle) wouldn't alone account for just how much she dominated in the Joanna fight.

She is obviously a very good fighter as you rightfully point out. There will always be the asterix of it being a weak division as well though fairly or unfairly. I don't know what the options are really, maybe she moves up and fights Nunes again or maybe if Zhang beats Joanna she moves up and fights Valentina. She is an elite level fighter but in an absolutely awful division. Joe Rogan basically asked her the same in her interview.

 

[Fener1907]

She is obviously a very good fighter as you rightfully point out. There will always be the asterix of it being a weak division as well though fairly or unfairly. I don't know what the options are really, maybe she moves up and fights Nunes again or maybe if Zhang beats Joanna she moves up and fights Valentina. She is an elite level fighter but in an absolutely awful division. Joe Rogan basically asked her the same in her interview.

It's an absolute can division. That's why the Nunes fight has to happen at some point. We know she can hang with bigger fighters and she has little to lose by moving up to 135 again, whilst Nunes is always in need of an opponent and could put any small, lingering doubts to bed in securing her own legacy. In terms of the money fight, that is the one, but yeah, Weili isn't a bad shout at all in the meantime. If the UFC could somehow make both of those fights happen, that'd be fantastic.

 

[Raoul]

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I’m sure it also has something to do with him asking jovial, uncontroversial questions (unlike Ariel, Luke Thomas et al). If he asked proper questions you can bet Dana would have one of his underlings drop kick him to the back of the queue.

 

[Oggmonster]

I’m sure it also has something to do with him asking jovial, uncontroversial questions (unlike Ariel, Luke Thomas et al). If he asked proper questions you can bet Dana would have one of his underlings drop kick him to the back of the queue.

Probably true, sure it works both ways though. The press conferences aren't always meant to be an interogattion in to fighters. There is a middle ground between both I suppose though his questions are bland as anything I agree but then sometimes that does work.

 

[Vault Dweller]

The product has probably outgrown Rogan now. Guys like Cormier, Bisping and Felder offer way more. But he is a personality who is well known and gets eyes on the product, casual eyes too. I love his enthusiasm for the sport.

There seems to be an inference in this thread though that guys who think Reyes was hard done by are casual and swayed by an “ohhhhhhhhhh” from a commentator.

This is rubbish, and can be dismissed easily. Only English speaking markets have access to Rogan and the many tweets and instagram posts from trainers and fighters who also thought Reyes won, let’s you know just how close it was.

This is definitely not a case of “stupid casuals just can’t see what Jones is doing”

The fight really was that close and Reyes really did outstrike him for 3/5 rounds.

I like listening to Bisping, he's good.

 

[Sylar]

Theres always one silly judge who just does something completely bonkers.

Although the weird thing is, the first judge had Jones winning round 2 and the third judge had Jones winning round 3.
This Joe Solis (judge 2) took judge 1s second round and judge 3s third round scores.

49-46 looks ridiculous because it is ridiculous when you watch the fight. But even judge 1 and 3 couldnt agree which of the first three rounds Jones won. (Thus you actually had 2 judges agreeing on which round Jones won from the first three)

 

[Grylte]

I read on facebook that Rogan had been watching the refs, and they had been looking the other way, during some fights.
He also mentioned that one time, one of the "leaders' " (not sure leaders of what) wife was ref, cause they didn't have anyone else

 

[Dirty Schwein]

I read on facebook that Rogan had been watching the refs, and they had been looking the other way, during some fights.
He also mentioned that one time, one of the "leaders' " (not sure leaders of what) wife was ref, cause they didn't have anyone else

Yeah Dom and Rogan pointed out in one of the fights that a ref spent major time not even looking at the octagon. It's embarrassing

 

[Raoul]

 

[Fortitude]

How many of you have watched the full fight back? If you have, what was your conclusion second time round?

 

[Oggmonster]

How many of you have watched the full fight back? If you have, what was your conclusion second time round?

My mate was watching it last night so I caught it again.

Reyes definitely 1 and 2. Jones definitely 4 and 5. 3 is close, I gave it Reyes but I don't think it was a huge robbery either just a really close fight. I don't think Jones would be up for a rematch with the way the fight went.

 

[Fener1907]

How many of you have watched the full fight back? If you have, what was your conclusion second time round?

I have a weird thing where I rewatch close/controversial fights and score them. It sure isn't scientific, but I find it interesting and it can definitely give a new perspective. They're very general thoughts but admiring one fighter's technique with a particular punch or kick doesn't do much for analysing results like this anyway. I said:

Round 1 - Reyes was the aggressor, mixing it up with punches and kicks, whereas Jones was relatively inactive with a few decent shots of his own.

Round 2 - Jones picked his shots and looked the more economical of the two, but Reyes' output was still clearly superior as he went to the body, legs and head.

Round 3 - Whilst Jones started to move forward more, that movement saw him eating a lot of leg kicks throughout the round. The takedown attempt wasn't also anything of note and, if anything, swung Reyes' way with a big elbow on the break.

Round 4 - The round started well for Reyes with a big flurry but Jones took control as it wore on and landed the bigger shots to decisively take the round.

Round 5 - Jones landed a lot of leg kicks over the course of the round and looked in complete control of it.

48-47 Reyes.

The one big difference I took away from rewatching it is that Jones' pressure was completely overrated, and that isn't even meant as a slight against his performance, because two of the rounds in which he pressured significantly (4, 5) were already his. It wasn't a factor in the first and second because there wasn't all too much backing up or moving forward by anybody, and Reyes connected far too much on the backfoot in the third to consider giving it to Jones for his pressure.

The same can also be said of Jones' takedowns. His attempt in the third was easily stuffed, and the ones in the later rounds weren't needed to swing them in his favor because he had them, and we can't go back and take any rounds off the opponent for those, regardless of whether or not they should be valued.

It all comes down to that third, so considering there was one takedown attempt that didn't amount to anything, it seems to be about how much people value forward movement, which Jones certainly made more of a conscious effort to do. On the other hand, it does a disservice to fighting on the backfoot which Reyes was doing very well.

 

[Raoul]

Reyes v Santos sounds like a logical next fight, with the winner getting a Jones rematch later in the year.

 

[TheReligion]

How many of you have watched the full fight back? If you have, what was your conclusion second time round?

3 is the contentious round but I still favoured Reyes. I guess you could argue to beat the champ you've got to go that little be further but I feel a draw would have been fair.

 

[George Owen]

Reyes v Santos sounds like a logical next fight, with the winner getting a Jones rematch later in the year.

Santos needs a tune up fight first in my opinion. The guy is old (for a fighter) and coming back from 2 career ending injuries.

Big chances the Santos we knew, might be gone for good. Not fair to him to fight the champ right away.

The fight to make is Reyes vs Jones 2. Jones deserves a chance to get his crown back.

 

[RedFish]

I had it Jones 3 Reyes 2 both times.

Rematch would be like Jones Gustafson 2. Once Jones has seen you once, you barely have a chance.
Amazing how Jones on a bad day, he still has enough in his locker to overcome what was a game performance by Reyes..

Also what a chin Jon Jones has.

 

[Fener1907]

I had it Jones 3 Reyes 2 both times.

What was it about the third that you think had it going Jones' way?

 

[RedFish]

What was it about the third that you think had it going Jones' way?

Momentum shift. Reyes slowed down and Jones continued to apply pressure but actually landing in this round, causing viable damage and marking up Reyes.
4th and 5th continued that trend. It's not like Jones just turned it on in the Championship rounds, the third was was the turning point.

First 2 rounds was inspired by Reyes but Jones is a master at reading what you got and then finding a way to overcome you.

In a rematch there will be no more reading needed. Make no mistake, this was the best chance Reyes had of winning.