The RedCafe Boxing Thread

[IWat]

Neither does Khan... and this is not a world class win at all.

Yes, he does. Malignaggi won another title after losing to Khan, Judah a 2 div champ, Maidana a 2 div champ who obliterated Broner after losing to Khan, Alexander (granted with issues) a 2 div champ. And that's me being fair and not giving him wins e.g. over Barrera for example due to his age when Khan fought him.

 

[IWat]

The only losses Brook has had have been to legit world class fighters. Khan really can't say the same.

That he doesn't have the résumé he should have is a legit criticism, but it should equally be directed to Hearn for screwing him after the Porter win. I mean who the feck puts their fresh 147 world champion in against the p4p scariest puncher in his era, who is two whole weight classes above him? He was never the same after that. Then, when he stepped up in class v Spence and Crawford, he was always on a hiding to nothing, and there's no shame in that whatsoever.

Prescott is really the only non-world class loss Khan has in my opinion. Every other loss is to someone who won belts in at least 2 divisions (Brook excluded).

I completely agree with you on Hearn, it's a real shame.

 

[Zen]

Yes, he does. Malignaggi won another title after losing to Khan, Judah a 2 div champ, Maidana a 2 div champ who obliterated Broner after losing to Khan, Alexander (granted with issues) a 2 div champ. And that's me being fair and not giving him wins e.g. over Barrera for example due to his age when Khan fought him.

None of that convinces me ... since I knew those otherwise I wouldn't comment. Maidana is as close as it got, but his rep is overly boosted by troubling a coasting Floyd.

I don't consider someone 'world class' just because they have a name. Khan's cherry picked his fights reasonably so people fall for the hype he wants you to fall for. Everyone wins belts nowadays, too many of them and some top tier guys care less about them so drop them for fun.

I wouldn't call Porter overly world class either before that comes in, but at least he wasn't on the slide. And Brook did feck all with that win anyway, three mid to lower tier guys then walks into GGG for like no reason whatsoever - still stunned he even went 11 with Spence after that.

 

[IWat]

None of that convinces me ... since I knew those otherwise I wouldn't comment. Maidana is as close as it got, but his rep is overly boosted by troubling a coasting Floyd.

I don't consider someone 'world class' just because they have a name. Khan's cherry picked his fights reasonably so people fall for the hype he wants you to fall for. Everyone wins belts nowadays, too many of them and some top tier guys care less about them so drop them for fun.

I wouldn't call Porter overly world class either before that comes in, but at least he wasn't on the slide. And Brook did feck all with that win anyway, three mid to lower tier guys then walks into GGG for like no reason whatsoever - still stunned he even went 11 with Spence after that.

I get what you're saying about belts, it's why I didn't include Kotelnik, Diaz, Collazo etc who were all former champs and were either poor champs e.g. Kotenlnik or well past their peak at the time. To me though it's much rarer that someone manages to fluke it across multiple weight divisions.

I'd personally say Porter was world class. I don't think you have to be a future hall of famer to have been a world-class fighter. But it's the joy of everyones definitions being different.

 

[LDUred]

Still to this day one of the greatest fights I've ever seen.

Yeah, stunning fight. That was Amir Khan at his best and also showing all his chinny nature. He was very vulnerable but also very capable of hurting his opponent. It was a fascinating match-up with an equally volatile, mercurial fighter.

Tonight, his legs just weren't there and he wasn't causing Brook any trouble with what he was throwing. He didn't look at the races.

The loss against Peterson was very unfortunate. He clearly won that and it's an L on his record that should not be there.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Khan hasn’t fought in 2.5 years and lost a lot of money in property,, this wasn’t anything more than a money grab..

He had a TV show on BBC. I think him and his wife are likeable but Khan is a bit of a doormat. He built this daft wedding venue for his dad at the cost of millions. His ‘mates’ take the mic out of him too asking for stuff. He can’t say no to anything.

 

[Salt Bailly]

Woohoo! After 2 rounds I couldn't see it losing

Yeah that was the point at which I began to relax

 

[rotherham_red]

Prescott is really the only non-world class loss Khan has in my opinion. Every other loss is to someone who won belts in at least 2 divisions (Brook excluded).

I completely agree with you on Hearn, it's a real shame.

Peterson? I wouldn't have him on that level, even Garcia is borderline for me.

Brook's losses were to people who were genuinely in the p4p conversation. While most of Khan's were as well, he also had some absolute stinkers in there as well.

 

[SilentWitness]

Yeah definitely, one took the fight because he wanted to fight; the other wanted the purse

i think so. It’s a shame it happened now as you’ll still get people saying if it was x years ago Khan would have won etc.

 

[Jeppers7]

Yeah definitely, one took the fight because he wanted to fight; the other wanted the purse

There’s a reason why one never wanted this fight….which we saw last night.

 

[pocco]

Brook should retire as well, titanium in the eye and looks terrible against any decent fighter. I fear Sky will try and drum up some support for a Eubanks fight, then he gets really injured again.

It's a good way to call it a day with the win over Khan, but I still think he could beat Eubank. I've been a big fan of Brook and don't want to see him get messed up and lose another after this fight, but a part of me would love to see him take Eubank apart.

 

[Glorio]

There’s a reason why one never wanted this fight….which we saw last night.

Exactly - he knew he'd get beat, he made it all about levels while obviously ducking a better but less popular fighter, agreed when there were no other options, and got taken apart like he would have while they were at their peaks.

If anything I felt being at this point of their carriers was a bit of a leveller as Brook has taken some serious punishment recently.

 

[BBer13]

I think kell brook has had a great career, the win against Khan is the perfect way for him to end it now. With kell brook he is very big at 147, he can make the weight but i still would of liked to see him go up one weight division and try for a title there. He has only lost against P4P fighters, and except for the crawford fight he never looked massively out of place in the ring with any of them. He was stupid to fight a prime GGG but he was boxing well until his eye socket gave way and in the spence fight i had him winning the fight until the headbutt broke his other eye socket. The crawford fight was disappointing to watch, but you can see his preparation for that fight wasn't all there. He came in very drained, didn't have the longest of camps and his trainer in dominic ingle wasn't there which i think made a massive difference. Overall a very good career, just a shame he spent a lot of his prime fighting lesser quality fighters, he deserved a few bigger nights in my opinion given his talent.

 

[Deery]

It's a good way to call it a day with the win over Khan, but I still think he could beat Eubank. I've been a big fan of Brook and don't want to see him get messed up and lose another after this fight, but a part of me would love to see him take Eubank apart.

Don’t see it, I’d expect Eubanks to eat him alive, much bigger fighter and a lot more power than he’s used to. Kell doesn’t need to be taking anymore punishment at this time in his career but Sky need a PPV and this looks the only one they got.

 

[IWat]

Peterson? I wouldn't have him on that level, even Garcia is borderline for me.

Brook's losses were to people who were genuinely in the p4p conversation. While most of Khan's were as well, he also had some absolute stinkers in there as well.

Peterson is fair, although how that fight was given to him I am not sure. I'd personally say Garcia was though.

I agree that if you look at Brook's losses, it is in his favour over Khan. I just don't think Brook has the body of work really to directly compare to Khan. Khan fought more than double the amount of former/current world champs, I would expect him to have more losses. Khan was facing people like Judah, Garcia etc after the same amount of fights Brook was fighting (and struggling in some cases) against Matthew Hatton, Carson Jones etc.

Either way, I'm glad they seem to have buried it now and their respect after was great to see.

 

[cyberman]

Peterson? I wouldn't have him on that level, even Garcia is borderline for me.

Brook's losses were to people who were genuinely in the p4p conversation. While most of Khan's were as well, he also had some absolute stinkers in there as well.

Yeah but his wins aren’t that impressive? Brook is a man who went from one extreme challenge to middle of the road fights. It’s been a strange career

 

[Dirty Schwein]

Peterson is fair, although how that fight was given to him I am not sure. I'd personally say Garcia was though.

I agree that if you look at Brook's losses, it is in his favour over Khan. I just don't think Brook has the body of work really to directly compare to Khan. Khan fought more than double the amount of former/current world champs, I would expect him to have more losses. Khan was facing people like Judah, Garcia etc after the same amount of fights Brook was fighting (and struggling in some cases) against Matthew Hatton, Carson Jones etc.

Either way, I'm glad they seem to have buried it now and their respect after was great to see.

This. It's annoying when there's sour grapes (looking at you Wilder).

 

[Jeppers7]

Peterson is fair, although how that fight was given to him I am not sure. I'd personally say Garcia was though.

I agree that if you look at Brook's losses, it is in his favour over Khan. I just don't think Brook has the body of work really to directly compare to Khan. Khan fought more than double the amount of former/current world champs, I would expect him to have more losses. Khan was facing people like Judah, Garcia etc after the same amount of fights Brook was fighting (and struggling in some cases) against Matthew Hatton, Carson Jones etc.

Either way, I'm glad they seem to have buried it now and their respect after was great to see.

Willie Limond and Micheal Gomes dropped Amir Khan. Fighting more doesn’t make it inevitable that Brook would’ve lost more. For me Khan had more opportunities than Brook because of his name. Brook had to build his name and force his way. His performances in his defeats to GGG and Spence were excellent. In any case styles make fights and Brook is all wrong for Khan, too big, powerful, intelligent for him.

 

[Jeppers7]

Yeah but his wins aren’t that impressive? Brook is a man who went from one extreme challenge to middle of the road fights. It’s been a strange career

Who did Brook avoid or turn down a fight with?

 

[Kazi]

The issue with Brook's career is that he would always have issues getting high profile fights, as the contenders in the division saw him as a high risk low reward opponent. Ideally, he needed Hearn to really invest in him by overpaying good contenders to get in there with Brook, but that'd never happen.

Khan on the other hand has had a massive profile since he won Silver at the Olympics. It would always be easy for Khan to get good contenders in there with him as they'd be enticed by the profile of the fight, and the money that comes along with it.

I think Brook in his prime is just as good / if not better than Thurman, Porter, Danny Garcia etc. But a bit behind the elite (Crawford, Spence)

 

[cyberman]

Who did Brook avoid or turn down a fight with?

Didn’t say he did?

 

[IWat]

Willie Limond and Micheal Gomes dropped Amir Khan. Fighting more doesn’t make it inevitable that Brook would’ve lost more. For me Khan had more opportunities than Brook because of his name. Brook had to build his name and force his way. His performances in his defeats to GGG and Spence were excellent. In any case styles make fights and Brook is all wrong for Khan, too big, powerful, intelligent for him.

I'm not going to try and defend Khan's punch resistance aha, although he's got a terrible habit of trying to fight fire with fire when he gets rocked instead of going back behind the jab, which he doesn't have the chin to do.

I agree, I think at their peaks it's heavily dependent on the weight class. Welter and above I think Kell wins, below I'd have Khan.

 

[Jeppers7]

Didn’t say he did?

Strange then that you’d hold that against him. He was a problem a lot of fighters didn’t want.

 

[Jeppers7]

I'm not going to try and defend Khan's punch resistance aha, although he's got a terrible habit of trying to fight fire with fire when he gets rocked instead of going back behind the jab, which he doesn't have the chin to do.

I agree, I think at their peaks it's heavily dependent on the weight class. Welter and above I think Kell wins, below I'd have Khan.

Fair enough. I’d have beat kell at a lower weight though

 

[IWat]

Fair enough. I’d have beat kell at a lower weight though

Well yeah, the majority of Khan's best work was at light-welter though. That fundamentally is why I don't think it happened back then, Khan very much picked his fights at welter because it was at the top of his effective weight ceiling. And Brook was unwilling to catch weight it between - Which I am not criticising him for because yeah, he has the same right to be picky when operating outside of his natural division.

 

[pocco]

Don’t see it, I’d expect Eubanks to eat him alive, much bigger fighter and a lot more power than he’s used to. Kell doesn’t need to be taking anymore punishment at this time in his career but Sky need a PPV and this looks the only one they got.

I know what you mean and I said the same, rather not see him take any more punishment and go out on a high. But I think he absolutely could have (slight chance he still could) beat Eubanks. He's shite. If he'd have fought him instead of GGG that night then I reckon he'd have given him a lesson in boxing.

 

[Gentleman Jim]

I know what you mean and I said the same, rather not see him take any more punishment and go out on a high. But I think he absolutely could have (slight chance he still could) beat Eubanks. He's shite. If he'd have fought him instead of GGG that night then I reckon he'd have given him a lesson in boxing.

Eubank is most certainly not shite, he's a much improved fighter who's likely to win a version of a world title before he's done.
Agreed that Brook would have beaten Chris 6 years ago though but now my money's on Eubank.

 

[IWat]

I know what you mean and I said the same, rather not see him take any more punishment and go out on a high. But I think he absolutely could have (slight chance he still could) beat Eubanks. He's shite. If he'd have fought him instead of GGG that night then I reckon he'd have given him a lesson in boxing.

The problem I see for Brook with Eubank Jr is that Chris is a natural middleweight and isn't going to come down much if any further considering he's fought at super-middleweight numerous times. Brook is best at 147lbs, regardless of what he himself thinks.

 

[Gringo]

Eubank is most certainly not shite, he's a much improved fighter who's likely to win a version of a world title before he's done.
Agreed that Brook would have beaten Chris 6 years ago though but now my money's on Eubank.

Who does Eubank beat for a word title.

 

[rotherham_red]

Yeah but his wins aren’t that impressive? Brook is a man who went from one extreme challenge to middle of the road fights. It’s been a strange career

Yeah, in terms of career I think it's fair to say Khan has had the better one, but I think a lot of that has been down to mismanagement from his promoter(s) rather than it being down to Brook solely. If he had the opportunities Khan had early doors, we'd have seen a much better Kell. As it was, he was kept at the British/European level far too long and stagnated. Then, when he finally won his title, Hearn put him in with a legit killer in GGG. Like, seriously, what were they thinking?

 

[Gentleman Jim]

Who does Eubank beat for a word title.

Impossible to say as no idea who he will be matched against or at which weight he will be challenging.
Most likely is that he moves up to Super Middle and picks up a shot at that weight if and when it fragments due to Canelo chasing other straps.

 

[T00lsh3d]

Yeah, in terms of career I think it's fair to say Khan has had the better one, but I think a lot of that has been down to mismanagement from his promoter(s) rather than it being down to Brook solely. If he had the opportunities Khan had early doors, we'd have seen a much better Kell. As it was, he was kept at the British/European level far too long and stagnated. Then, when he finally won his title, Hearn put him in with a legit killer in GGG. Like, seriously, what were they thinking?

Well, they probably thought, “worst case scenario is he loses”, not, “he might get actually mangled”

 

[rotherham_red]

Well, they probably thought, “worst case scenario is he loses”, not, “he might get actually mangled”

It's Golovkin though. It wasn't someone who was unknown a la Prescott v Khan. EVERYONE knew who he was and what he'd done. Went through everyone but Canelo at MW.

If I have a new World Champion on my books, I don't think I'll put him in with the world's scariest puncher who was two weight classes heavier than him. There's giving him a challenge and then there's negligence. This was very much a case of that.

A blind man knew what was going to happen, FFS. Same with the Khan and Canelo fight. Just fecking idiotic.

 

[Deery]

Who does Eubank beat for a word title.
[/QUO

Andrade, Murata or maybe Golovkin.

Whether he beats them is another story but they’re his most likely of paths..

 

[Gringo]

Yes. Those are the paths. Which means he ain't going to be a world champion. He's B rate.

 

[T00lsh3d]

It's Golovkin though. It wasn't someone who was unknown a la Prescott v Khan. EVERYONE knew who he was and what he'd done. Went through everyone but Canelo at MW.

If I have a new World Champion on my books, I don't think I'll put him in with the world's scariest puncher who was two weight classes heavier than him. There's giving him a challenge and then there's negligence. This was very much a case of that.

A blind man knew what was going to happen, FFS. Same with the Khan and Canelo fight. Just fecking idiotic.

Oh I fully agree with you. Maybe Brook pushed for it?

 

[Deery]

Yes. Those are the paths. Which means he ain't going to be a world champion. He's B rate.

He did a better job on Williams than Andrade, Murata is 36 and Golovkin is 39.

He has a good a chance now than he will ever have..

 

[rotherham_red]

Oh I fully agree with you. Maybe Brook pushed for it?

Yeah that's possible. If I remember correctly, it was announced about 2 or 3 weeks after Khan's fight with Canelo was announced, so it very well could have been a case of an idiotic game of top trumps as to who gets pulverised quicker...

 

[Gringo]

Brook was just tired of waiting for a big fight I think. And yes wanted to out do Khan as well for sure.

 

[Gentleman Jim]

Yes. Those are the paths. Which means he ain't going to be a world champion. He's B rate.

He's not going to be #1 in his weight division but he may well end up with a belt.
His management will await a good
opportunity for him and manoeuvre him into a challenging position particularly if he takes the scalp of Brook or another Gatekeeper first.

Edit

Can see Brook fighting and losing to Eubank then matched vs Benn Jnr both on PPV as his cash outs.