Thoughts on Tuchel as a potential United manager?

[DSG]

The problem with judging Potter at Chelsea is that there were so many moving parts and the squad they created for him had weaknesses all over the park. They bought a number of young, inexperienced players, added them to some average or past it players and expected it to work. They lost their best CB in Rudiger who was great the season before, Sterling was a poor signing, as was Koulibaly.They'd just been forced into an ownership change by the UK government, and had Todd Boehly acting like a madman, taking on the DoF type role with zero knowledge of football. To try to hit the ground running and cobble something together within a season was always a difficult ask. And their season was floundering under Tuchel initially.

Keep in mind Chelsea have spent a further ~£250m since his sacking and are still struggling. Everyone has their own opinion but I think that was a poisoned chalice of a job at that time and I saw enough at Brighton for me to know he is a good coach.

I agree with this. He walked into a shitshow. Thiago basically said as much.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

I agree with this. He walked into a shitshow. Thiago basically said as much.

So you'll excuse the circumstances around Chelsea's shite show but not at Utd, strange.

 

[DSG]

Like Mourinho, he's just stylistically not a Manchester Utd manager and doesn't tick the right boxes for what we need. It would be yet another attempt to try and shortcut our way to success when we are miles away from being able to do that currently.

What is stylistically a Manchester United manager? Curious. And please don’t say “progressive” and “front foot”, those are cliches.

 

[JPRouve]

I think, tactically, he's made it harder for himself this season. I think we could have continued to be the fairly pragmatic, defensive, counterattacking side that we have been since Mourinho was here (to varying degrees). I reckon this season would have yielded marginally better results. But as he said in his interview with Neville, he felt the potential of this side is higher, and the ambitions of the club are greater than that. As a result, we have tried to be more open, more expansive, press higher up the pitch, and commit to building from the back far more than any team post-Fergie. The issue we have is that, especially with the injuries in the mix, we have too many players who are either individually not good enough or tactically a poor fit. That's made a difficult season even harder. I think fundamentally, though, his vision for this side is to be a front-foot progressive side.

You haven't really answered the question about progressive football. But you opened the door for an other question why LVG had no issue implementing a possession based system with the team playing from the back regardless of who was on the pitch including a bunch of kids that were/ still are lower league level Footballers? Also why is what you are describing not the style that ETH described himself?

"So we really looked into the history of Manchester United and we really looked also into the qualities of our players. And then you can say, so what do we want to be? That is, we want to be the best transition team in the world. We want to surprise. We want to play dynamic [football], we want to play with speed and we want to play aggressive out of a very good team spirit.

ETH didn't plan to play the way some of you are suggesting, he wants us to be a transition team, a team that counter attack, that goes from defense to attack quickly, he wants to create and exploit chaos or as he called it, to surprise.

 

[stevoc]

In many ways, really. He's clearly committed to trying to implement a more progressive style of play.

Well he's certainly been trying to implement something. Whether or not that combines well with what the new regime will want to implement in terms of play style is another matter.

He now knows this squad.

I'd like to think so he signed most of it.

If he's still here this summer, there's a far better chance that we remove some of the problem players rather than giving them all a blank slate yet again.

Like who?

Won't it be the Director of Football and the Technical directors along with the Ceo deciding who stays and goes from now on?

 

[DSG]

So you'll excuse the circumstances around Chelsea's shite show but not at Utd, strange.

Yes, yes I will.

Potter had one winter transfer window. He had 16 first team squad members leave and had to integrate 17 new first team squad members. He had very little to do with any of these transfers.

Ten Hag has veto power over all player sales and incoming transfers. He’s had 4 windows. And we still look like shit.

 

[JPRouve]

Yes, yes I will.

Potter had one winter transfer window. He had 16 first team squad members leave and had to integrate 17 new first team squad members. He had very little to do with any of these transfers.

Ten Hag has veto power over all player sales and incoming transfers. He’s had 4 windows. And we still look like shit.

He also joined Chelsea in September without a preseason and with 40+ first team players.

 

[SirBillNic]

Like Mourinho, he's just stylistically not a Manchester Utd manager and doesn't tick the right boxes for what we need. It would be yet another attempt to try and shortcut our way to success when we are miles away from being able to do that currently.

He's not nearly as negative/pragmatic as Mourinho though. I've always thought his teams play fairly decent football most of the time.

I don't think anyone else will win the league while Guardiola is at City anyway, so imo what you're looking for is a good, proven head coach who can do well in the cup competitions and get top 4. Tuchel checks all those boxes. He's had above a 60% win rate at the last 4 clubs he's managed. I would keep him away from transfer decisions, but it looks like Man United are putting in that director of football structure where the transfer decisions aren't all made by the manager. Give him the tools and Tuchel will do very well I think.

On another note how toxic must Bayern be right now? I don't remember a time when every available German manager was turning down the chance to manage Bayern. Must be very bad behind the scenes.

 

[mitchmouse]

Max Allegri just became available - I wanted him when Ole got the job. He's certainly got the European experience and winning mentality but sounds liek he went a bit crazy at the cup final (not that a bit crazy isn't a good thing)

 

[JPRouve]

He's not nearly as negative/pragmatic as Mourinho though. I've always thought his teams play fairly decent football most of the time.

I don't think anyone else will win the league while Guardiola is at City anyway, so imo what you're looking for is a good, proven head coach who can do well in the cup competitions and get top 4. Tuchel checks all those boxes. He's had above a 60% win rate at the last 4 clubs he's managed. I would keep him away from transfer decisions, but it looks like Man United are putting in that director of football structure where the transfer decisions aren't all made by the manager. Give him the tools and Tuchel will do very well I think.

On another note how toxic must Bayern be right now? I don't remember a time when every available German manager was turning down the chance to manage Bayern. Must be very bad behind the scenes.

Yeah, the only time you could make a case for Tuchel being defensive is with Chelsea. For every other club you are talking about a fairly vertical version of possession Football.

 

[mitchmouse]

If he does then I think it might be a 2 season job to buy us some time. Would be nice to see someone actually stop all those shots and goals at the back though.

Allegri might be the man for that... and he just got sacked!

 

[mitchmouse]

Probably Barca bound

would Xavi work for us? to honest, I've seen nothing of Barca this season

 

[SirBillNic]

You haven't really answered the question about progressive football. But you opened the door for an other question why LVG had no issue implementing a possession based system with the team playing from the back regardless of who was on the pitch including a bunch of kids that were/ still are lower league level Footballers? Also why is what you are describing not the style that ETH described himself?



ETH didn't plan to play the way some of you are suggesting, he wants us to a transition team, a team that counter attack, that plays goes from defense to attack quickly, he wants to create and exploit chaos, or as he called to surprise.

To me this almost completely undermines the rationale to keep him as manager. He was hired because of the way Ajax played. Man United wanted a coach that could get them playing that way. They signed players with that in mind including players who had played under Ten Hag before. Then nearly 2 years in he says it's not possible to play like Ajax and that he wants to create a transitional team.

But if that's how it's got to be, then there are better managers for creating a team that is effective playing that way. Tuchel is one of them imo. You didn't hire Ten Hag because there was evidence that he could produce the kind of swashbuckling football that United used to play. He was hired because of the style of football Ajax played which was completely different. So the logic behind hiring him in the first place is completely out the window.

Now I think it's fine to adjust to the circumstances you find yourself in, there's just no prior evidence that he can do that. So that has to be evaluated ad hoc. To me he's not passing that evaluation at the moment.

Plus being a transitional team is never going to win you the league because it's pretty impotent against teams that sit back in a low block. So the best you can hope for is cup runs and getting CL each season, and I think there are better managers for that too.

 

[JPRouve]

To me this almost completely undermines the rationale to keep him as manager. He was hired because of the way Ajax played. Man United wanted a coach that could get them playing that way. They signed players with that in mind including players who had played under Ten Hag before. Then nearly 2 years in he says it's not possible to play like Ajax and that he wants to create a transitional team.

But if that's how it's got to be, then there are better managers for creating a team that is effective playing that way. Tuchel is one of them imo. You didn't hire Ten Hag because there was evidence that he could produce the kind of swashbuckling football that United used to play. He was hired because of the style of football Ajax played which was completely different. So the logic behind hiring him in the first place is completely out the window.

Now I think it's fine to adjust to the circumstances you find yourself in, there's just no prior evidence that he can do that. So that has to be evaluated ad hoc. To me he's not passing that evaluation at the moment.

Plus being a transitional team is never going to win you the league because it's pretty impotent against teams that sit back in a low block. So the best you can hope for is cup runs and getting CL each season, and I think there are better managers for that too.

Transition Football is actually his initial style, that's what got him the Ajax job. He knows that style, the issue is that for some reason he tried to alter his normal approach and created a massive gap in midfield, he then refused to fix it for an entire season.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

What is stylistically a Manchester United manager? Curious. And please don’t say “progressive” and “front foot”, those are cliches.

I shouldn’t really have to answer because it’s pretty obvious what the values are Manchester Utd are. Get someone that understands that as a minimum or else you end up with cnuts like Mourinho in the dugout.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

You haven't really answered the question about progressive football. But you opened the door for an other question why LVG had no issue implementing a possession based system with the team playing from the back regardless of who was on the pitch including a bunch of kids that were/ still are lower league level Footballers? Also why is what you are describing not the style that ETH described himself?

ETH didn't plan to play the way some of you are suggesting, he wants us to be a transition team, a team that counter attack, that goes from defense to attack quickly, he wants to create and exploit chaos or as he called it, to surprise.

Yeh it’s a valid question. He did manage to implement possession football, but it was also completely soulless and with zero intent. It’s alot easier to build a possession side when you only ever go backwards and sideways.

I think that quote has done the rounds so much but it’s hardly a conclusive evidence of what he actually wants. In the Neville interview he was asked why he doesn’t play like Ajax and said it was because we would need a whole new set of players. That to me seems like someone who is looking at the situation more pragmatically, but who ultimately wants to play more like that in a perfect world.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

Well he's certainly been trying to implement something. Whether or not that combines well with what the new regime will want to implement in terms of play style is another matter.



I'd like to think so he signed most of it.



Like who?

Won't it be the Director of Football and the Technical directors along with the Ceo deciding who stays and goes from now on?

Rashford, Sancho, McTominay, Wan Bissaka to name afew. Much prefer that than another blank slate for everyone again.

 

[pocco]

So you'll excuse the circumstances around Chelsea's shite show but not at Utd, strange.

Not even comparable in my opinion. Ten Hag got his signings for a start, he didn't have some guy from baseball signing football players for him. The upheaval at Chelsea at the time was pretty unprecedented in football, given the involvement of the government.

 

[JPRouve]

Yeh it’s a valid question. He did manage to implement possession football, but it was also completely soulless and with zero intent. It’s alot easier to build a possession side when you only ever go backwards and sideways.

I think that quote has done the rounds so much but it’s hardly a conclusive evidence of what he actually wants. In the Neville interview he was asked why he doesn’t play like Ajax and said it was because we would need a whole new set of players. That to me seems like someone who is looking at the situation more pragmatically, but who ultimately wants to play more like that in a perfect world.

This makes no sense, you don't think that a manager stating the way he wants us to play and then him setting up the team to play that way for an entire season aren't conclusive evidences?

As for the Ajax thing. It wasn't his style before joining Ajax, at Ajax he played the way the board and the club expect you to play. His style before Ajax was transition Football. So why would you assume that in a perfect world a manager would play in a way that he hasn't outside of Ajax?

 

[C'est Moi Cantona]

Lots of talk that he wants the United job, then strong rumours of him staying at Bayern, and now suddenly he's not, I wonder if he's been given some encouragement that he could get his dream job afterall.

 

[Jim Beam]

As a Chelsea fan who loves and will always love Tuchel, there is now a very clear pattern with that would imo make him a SUPER weird appointment for United. He brings pretty much guaranteed short term success on the pitch but then quickly (and often publicly) falls out with club hierarchy. Whether that be with recruitment or whatever else. Now happened at all of Dortmund, PSG, Chelsea, and Bayern.

You guys sacking Ten Hag and appointing Tuchel would feel very much like Spurs going for Mourinho and Conte to me. A club who have gone so long without major silverware that you’re desperate. And in that desperation you appoint a fiery, combative short term manager that burns his club out after just a couple of years over and over again.

Yeah, what a shit appointment he was for Chelsea. Also, those players he led to CL win surely proved how much he shackled them and went on to compete for everything once he left. Actually maybe he is the reason you are so shit still.

 

[GreatDane]

Yeh it’s a valid question. He did manage to implement possession football, but it was also completely soulless and with zero intent. It’s alot easier to build a possession side when you only ever go backwards and sideways.

I think that quote has done the rounds so much but it’s hardly a conclusive evidence of what he actually wants. In the Neville interview he was asked why he doesn’t play like Ajax and said it was because we would need a whole new set of players. That to me seems like someone who is looking at the situation more pragmatically, but who ultimately wants to play more like that in a perfect world.

You never answered what boxes ETH ticks for you?
Is it the GD? Position in the league?

 

[Orc]

Yeah, what a shit appointment he was for Chelsea. Also, those players he led to CL win surely proved how much he shackled them and went on to compete for everything once he left. Actually maybe he is the reason you are so shit still.

What has this got anything at all to do with what I posted?

When did I say he was shit?

 

[George The Best]

Wonder why he couldn’t reach agreement with Bayern as the players, reportedly, were behind him.

 

[Jim Beam]

What has this got anything at all to do with what I posted?

When did I say he was shit?

"And in that desperation you appoint a fiery, combative short term manager that burns his club out after just a couple of years over and over again." Which is hilarious considering he was the only person holding the club together during Abramovich crises.

He really burned and fecked you up with that stint.

 

[Teja]

Wonder why he couldn’t reach agreement with Bayern as the players, reportedly, were behind him.

He wanted a longer contract, Bayern would only offer him a one year extension. I assume they want to try for Xabi again next year.

 

[Raoul]

Wonder why he couldn’t reach agreement with Bayern as the players, reportedly, were behind him.

He probably prefers England. I know he was gutted at being forced out at Chelsea and wants another crack at it.

 

[imonkmc]

If tuchel is available utd should get rid of tenhag. With ten hag It seems utd are never in control of the game. Whether ten hag stays and improves is anybody guess, but tuchel I feel provides a baseline performance and a minimum top 4. I wouldn’t judge tuchel on his last season with Chelsea as too many changes. But his football can be very mechanical imho

 

[Orc]

"And in that desperation you appoint a fiery, combative short term manager that burns his club out after just a couple of years over and over again." Which is hilarious considering he was the only person holding the club together during Abramovich crises.

He really burned and fecked you up with that stint.

He’s a brilliant manager. But I think he’s in the same category now as Conte who is also a brilliant manager still. They have a very short shelf life before things boil over internally.

All I’m saying is that for that reason it would be a strange appointment for a club that is crying out for stability and long term thinking.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

You never answered what boxes ETH ticks for you?
Is it the GD? Position in the league?

I did to be fair mate just in the Ten Hag Thread. I think I’ve tripled my post count just today and typed more words than I thought possible, so can’t be bothered to re-type them out here. Remind me tomorrow!

 

[Jim Beam]

He’s a brilliant manager. But I think he’s in the same category now as Conte who is also a brilliant manager still. They have a very short shelf life before things boil over internally.

All I’m saying is that for that reason it would be a strange appointment for a club that is crying out for stability and long term thinking.

He also doesn't scream United manager for me, but from a Chelsea fan perspective to say he burnt the bridges when he was the last one who made you look like a top team is extremely harsh and considering his new boss was the man who proposed 4-4-3 tactics.

Also, who cares if it is short-term. Just sack him in time. Our actual problem was always giving too much time to managers and thinking long-term. Abramovich is a cnut but he was brilliant at it, you are not working, there is the door.

 

[DSG]

I shouldn’t really have to answer because it’s pretty obvious what the values are Manchester Utd are. Get someone that understands that as a minimum or else you end up with cnuts like Mourinho in the dugout.

Stop. Complete cop out. There are so many fake “purists” that talk about Manchester United football, and you ask them what that is and they can’t describe.

It’s deeper than “values”. I know, tactically, what Manchester United football is for me. What is it for you?

 

[stevoc]

Rashford, Sancho, McTominay, Wan Bissaka to name afew. Much prefer that than another blank slate for everyone again.

Bar Rashford the other 3 are likely to leave this summer even under a new manager. You don't need a manager to stay the job just to get rid of players.

In the case of McTominay, the way Ten Hag has relied upon him this season and preferred him over most of his own midifeld signings, I'm not convinced he would even want to sell him now.

 

[Wibble]

My thoughts are mainly a single word. No.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

Stop. Complete cop out. There are so many fake “purists” that talk about Manchester United football, and you ask them what that is and they can’t describe.

It’s deeper than “values”. I know, tactically, what Manchester United football is for me. What is it for you?

Tactically I don’t really care, I don’t think Man Utd is defined by tactics providing we play a proactive, attacking style. The main thing I want to see is more control in our games.

 

[Lyng]

The main thing I want to see is more control in our games.

Then I really dont understand why you prefer Ten Hag to Tuchel

 

[Zed 101]

Yeh that's certainly one way to see it. The other is that if you want to play a certain style of play you do to some degree have to go all in even if that impacts short term results because certain players are exposed. How will you ever know which players are suitable if you don't try it?

Well there is a thing called training! and if ya really want to you can experiment for a few matches starting out with weaker opposition.... I do not think it is a very constructive approach to go "all in" and stick with it all season, making us a tactical joke, so open that teams fighting relegation can overrun our midfield (what midfield?.... the one man stranded without support, oh that midfield!), and have 20+ shots on goal... there is progressive, there is determined, there is stubborn.... and then there is rank incompetence and abject stupidity! (if you missed my intent ETH fits into the latter).... there is no team in the world that could successfully implement what he was trying in the premier league for most of this season, let alone a squad ravaged by injuries! I am not sure even if you could cherry pick 11 players from any club that they could make ETH's suicide tactics work over a season in the prem.

I applaud your enthusiasm, optimism and motives, but the problem is ETH has cost us a minimum £70m in lost prize money going into the next transfer window, if not closer to £100m, if he had been more pragmatic you could halve that, 4th place was there for the taking, with our squad even with injuries it should have been achieved, but from the turn of the year if anything ETH has become more reckless with his tactics, seeing us outplayed by some of the weakest teams ever seen in the prem...

I don't care if he has a vision, if he is progressive, the club is not at a point where it can afford to spend a few seasons languishing outside of the top 4 whilst a manager develops a bespoke squad for a very singular formation, who know if ETH stays another season maybe it all clicks, maybe everyone will be eating humble pie, I don't think so, if for nothing else we have witnessed some of the worst performances and defeats in our history throughout his time here, but the point is the club is not in a place that can take that risk.... yes the other candidates are not inspiring, but most if not all would be better bets for getting top 4 than keeping ETH... my other question is what has he done to deserve another chance? I only wish I could be as bad at my job as he is at his and get away with it!

 

[AneRu]

Yeh it’s a valid question. He did manage to implement possession football, but it was also completely soulless and with zero intent. It’s alot easier to build a possession side when you only ever go backwards and sideways.

I think that quote has done the rounds so much but it’s hardly a conclusive evidence of what he actually wants. In the Neville interview he was asked why he doesn’t play like Ajax and said it was because we would need a whole new set of players. That to me seems like someone who is looking at the situation more pragmatically, but who ultimately wants to play more like that in a perfect world.

He has signed 8 players and stumbled upon Garnacho and Mainoo so that's a lame excuse. If he was losing matches, like De Zerbi, because he is staying true to a style then it would be understandable but here he abandoned the style that got him the job, proceeded to make a mess of Recruitment and then watched as our season imploded from Match day 1 because of a gaping hole he had created in midfield. He has to account for this season.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

Then I really dont understand why you prefer Ten Hag to Tuchel

I just can’t really stand him as a bloke and think the football he turned out at Chelsea was pretty poor. Doesn’t seem like a good fit for me.

 

[Lyng]

I just can’t really stand him as a bloke and think the football he turned out at Chelsea was pretty poor. Doesn’t seem like a good fit for me.

Thats fair enough. If you had just started with that I wouldnt even have challenged your opinion mate.
Personally I liked his Chelsea side and really like Tuchel as a person but thats all subjective