Transgender Athletes

[Camilo]

What do you think her goal is in saying she's the fastest girl when she just lost to other girls? My interpretation is that she's saying the other girls aren't really girls.

We all know what she's saying.

 

[maniak]

We all know what she's saying.

OK, so is it a good starting point for an important and necessary debate?

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

What is a 20 year old woman doing competing against girls?

Shades of Michael Owen. Well done Chelsea, she's 13.

 

[The Corinthian]

I was commenting her comment. When she calls herself the fastest girl, the message is clear and the type of people she's trying to appeal to is also clear. No point in discussing valid concerns when this is the starting point.

Whatever term she calls herself is irrelevant and after the point. The reality and facts are that she's losing races to transgender women. That's the point and the issue which you seem to be missing.

 

[maniak]

Whatever term she calls herself is irrelevant and after the point. The reality and facts are that she's losing races to transgender women. That's the point and the issue which you seem to be missing.

I mentioned a couple of posts back it's an important debate, but when this dog whistling is the starting point, I doubt much can be achieved.

 

[Camilo]

I mentioned a couple of posts back it's an important debate, but when this dog whistling is the starting point, I doubt much can be achieved.

Nothing will be achieved with your attitude. Don't worry about the language, worry about the sentiment.

 

[maniak]

Nothing will be achieved with your attitude. Don't worry about the language, worry about the sentiment.

Don't worry about the language? The language indicates someone is not entering a discussion in good faith.

 

[We need an rvn]

I think there are so many sides to the arguments as to whether transgender people should compete in a sport in the sex they feel

in most cases, the ‘female’ has gone through all or a large chunk of puberty and have thus benefited from all that testosterone - giving them a huge, and in my opinion, completely unfair advantage over girls and women who can’t produce what a male body can.

the flip side to this is that there are a number of conditions where people are born with xx (male) chromosomes but during some point in the development the body decided not produce male body parts and the person is born looking female and on the birth certificate they are female. It’s only at some point when they get older that something comes to light and after some tests it is discovered they have xy chromosomes ( eg the girl doesn’t start her period and tests are done to find out why). In some cases, people have been know to have xy chromosomes but also a womb.

at this point, the majority of girls have been raised as a girl, affiliate themselves as female etc. these people are often then put on testosterone blockers and will need the aid of estrogen pills or patches so their body can produce breasts etc. they have absolutely no advantage over girls with xx chromosomes

so given the two above cases, one person has been raised as a boy, benefitted from all that testosterone and then decided they affiliate as female and compete in female competitions. The other also has xy chromosomes but never received any testosterone.

should the two cases be treated equally, should those who have benefitted from testosterone not be allowed to compete in female competitions?

what say the caf?

 

[The Corinthian]

I mentioned a couple of posts back it's an important debate, but when this dog whistling is the starting point, I doubt much can be achieved.

What dog whistling? She's a girl and gave herself a moniker as the fastest girl in Connecticut. If I say 'I'm the best poster on this forum' is that dog whistling and offensive to other posters on the forum? It's a ludicrous point you're making.

The fact is she's a sports woman who is being beaten by transwomen in sport. That's the key part of the story - not what she calls herself.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

This subject is so fraught and toxic it's insane and makes me think it's part of a chemtrails offensive by some rogue state to bamboozle western cultures.

I saw all of the response (before it was aired) of the channel 4 programme "Gender Wars" and again, thought the same.

At times the debate feels like fodder, akin to the two minute hate in 1984. You can either scream at a bigot and feel great about yourself or you can scream at a groomer and feel great about yourself.

This girl athlete might have a greivance or legitimate concern but because this is today and this is the environment we are in, it's just more chum for the "culture war" which keeps us glued to social media and ever the more Partizan.

Even if I was to agree with her or support her right to raise her concern, I'll be lumped in with people I hate such as the gross and nasty little worms like Matt Walsh, Ben Shapiro or Steven Crowder.

As Dr Manhattan said: I'm tired of Earth.

 

[maniak]

What dog whistling? She's a girl and gave herself a moniker as the fastest girl in Connecticut. If I say 'I'm the best poster on this forum' is that dog whistling and offensive to other posters on the forum? It's a ludicrous point you're making.

The fact is she's a sports woman who is being beaten by transwomen in sport. That's the key part of the story - not what she calls herself.

I don't think it's innocent at all, I see it as a dog whistle to people who think transgender girls are not really girls. But I don't know this woman, so I may be wrong. You're example about this forum is not comparable at all, it makes no sense.

By the way, another fun fact, she has won titles before beating other transgender girls.

 

[Kasper]

I just love how in all these stories it's always absolute nobodies who make up ridiculous claims of being robbed of made up achievements while having been beaten by multiple cis woman in the process as well.
Without checking the story I'd be willing to bet big money that she never was and never will be the fastest in Connecticut even if you only take cis girls but the right wing press loves to jump on these future suburban mom stories that love the attention.

 

[maniak]

I just love how in all these stories it's always absolute nobodies who make up ridiculous claims of being robbed of made up achievements while having been beaten by multiple cis woman in the process as well.
Without checking the story I'd be willing to bet big money that she never was and never will be the fastest in Connecticut even if you only take cis girls but the right wing press loves to jump on these future suburban mom stories that love the attention.

I googled some of her results, she has won and lost against cis girls, and she has won and lost against transgender girls.

 

[Halftrack]

What dog whistling? She's a girl and gave herself a moniker as the fastest girl in Connecticut. If I say 'I'm the best poster on this forum' is that dog whistling and offensive to other posters on the forum? It's a ludicrous point you're making.

"Best poster" is a completely subjective criteria, and you're not invalidating other posters' posterhood by claiming you're the best.

Being the fastest is an objective measure, and by saying ahe's the fastest girl, she's saying all those trans girls that beat her aren't actually girls so they don't count. Hence it's a dog whistle, meant to get bigots to nod approvingly.

 

[The Corinthian]

"Best poster" is a completely subjective criteria, and you're not invalidating other posters' posterhood by claiming you're the best.

Being the fastest is an objective measure, and by saying ahe's the fastest girl, she's saying all those trans girls that beat her aren't actually girls so they don't count. Hence it's a dog whistle, meant to get bigots to nod approvingly.

It's not a serious claim though. It's a brand, or a moniker. The other poster even showed evidence that she's lost races to cis women, so it's an undeniably stupid thing to do to take the moniker/claim as serious.

 

[Carolina Red]

I just love how in all these stories it's always absolute nobodies who make up ridiculous claims of being robbed of made up achievements while having been beaten by multiple cis woman in the process as well.
Without checking the story I'd be willing to bet big money that she never was and never will be the fastest in Connecticut even if you only take cis girls but the right wing press loves to jump on these future suburban mom stories that love the attention.

From her athlete profile at the College of William & Mary…
Prep
Runner-up in the Emerging Elite Long Jump at the 2019 New Balance Outdoor Nationals ... New England Champion in the 100m in 2019 as well ... Named the Connecticut State Track Athlete of the Year following those performances ... As a senior in the winter of 2020, ranked No. 3 in the nation in the long jump ... Named a prep All-American by the NSAF ... Won 11 Connecticut State Championships at Canton ... Three of her state titles were in the open (all-divisions) category in addition to eight in her division ... Won the state open title in the 55m dash as senior in 2020 ... Also won the state open championship outdoors in the 100m in 2019, and indoors in the long jump in 2019 ... Won the divisional 100m in 2018 ... Added the 200m and 4x100m outdoor championships that year as well ... In 2019, won the long jump in her division both indoors and outdoors ... Swept the divisional titles in the 55m, 300m, and the long jump in 2020 ... Earned 16 all-state honors overall ... Member of the Rho Kappa Honor Society ... Won the Outstanding Academic Excellence Award from Canton.

 

[maniak]

From her athlete profile at the College of William & Mary…
Prep
Runner-up in the Emerging Elite Long Jump at the 2019 New Balance Outdoor Nationals ... New England Champion in the 100m in 2019 as well ... Named the Connecticut State Track Athlete of the Year following those performances ... As a senior in the winter of 2020, ranked No. 3 in the nation in the long jump ... Named a prep All-American by the NSAF ... Won 11 Connecticut State Championships at Canton ... Three of her state titles were in the open (all-divisions) category in addition to eight in her division ... Won the state open title in the 55m dash as senior in 2020 ... Also won the state open championship outdoors in the 100m in 2019, and indoors in the long jump in 2019 ... Won the divisional 100m in 2018 ... Added the 200m and 4x100m outdoor championships that year as well ... In 2019, won the long jump in her division both indoors and outdoors ... Swept the divisional titles in the 55m, 300m, and the long jump in 2020 ... Earned 16 all-state honors overall ... Member of the Rho Kappa Honor Society ... Won the Outstanding Academic Excellence Award from Canton.

In some of those events she beat transgender girls. Crazy.

 

[Carolina Red]

In some of those events she beat transgender girls. Crazy.

And in some, she didn’t. And neither did a lot of other biological females.

There’s the issue.

 

[Scholsey2004]

At the end of the day the whole point in seperating mens and womens sports is to make competition fairer. Allowing transgender athletes to compete with women completely defeats seperating genders in the first place.

 

[The Corinthian]

In some of those events she beat transgender girls. Crazy.

And she would have won another 20 if it wasn't for transgender women. Even more crazy that they're included in the women's category.

 

[stepic]

So sometimes she lost to trans women, and also lost to other cis women

Sometimes she beat trans women, and also beat other cis women

sounds like sports to me. What’s the issue again besides blatant transphobia? Oh right yes trans women should never be allowed to beat a cis woman ever, got it

 

[maniak]

And in some, she didn’t. And neither did a lot of other biological females.

There’s the issue.

And in some races the transgender athletes lost. And in other races this girl lost to other cis girls. Sometimes you win sometimes you lose, this is school sports, not the world cup.

 

[maniak]

And she would have won another 20 if it wasn't for transgender women. Even more crazy that they're included in the women's category.

How do you know that? She could've lost to other cis athletes. It seems to be she sometimes wins and sometimes loses, but when she loses to transgender girls... oh boy that's a real problem.

 

[Carolina Red]

And in some races the transgender athletes lost. And in other races this girl lost to other cis girls. Sometimes you win sometimes you lose, this is school sports, not the world cup.

Way to completely, and intentionally, miss the point.

And the “this is school sports, not the World Cup” completely glosses over the fact that competing well in school sports are how many people afford to attend college.

How many biological females didn’t get looked at for a college scholarship because they got kept out of a race by someone who isn’t one?

But again, you’re intentionally missing the point, so that won’t matter to you.

 

[Carolina Red]

At the end of the day the whole point in seperating mens and womens sports is to make competition fairer. Allowing transgender athletes to compete with women completely defeats seperating genders in the first place.

Ah yes, but “it isn’t the World Cup” so we shouldn’t care about it. /s

 

[Mr Pigeon]

The discussion and debate about transgender athletes should be one that is nuanced and not built on ill thought and reactionary assumptions. But, in my experience, when kids who are involved in generally niche competitive sports like running start to lose, they become snidey and sore losers because at the core of their soul they are absolute cnuts.

 

[maniak]

Way to completely, and intentionally, miss the point.

And the “this is school sports, not the World Cup” completely glosses over the fact that competing well in school sports are how many people afford to attend college.

How many biological females didn’t get looked at for a college scholarship because they got kept out of a race by someone who isn’t one?

But again, you’re intentionally missing the point, so that won’t matter to you.

So transgender girls would never get sports scholarships, gotcha, problem solved I guess.

Having a ridiculous system where some people can only go to college if they are good at sports is a problem that wasn't caused by transgender kids, so why should they have to pay for it?

 

[The Corinthian]

The discussion and debate about transgender athletes should be one that is nuanced and not built on ill thought and reactionary assumptions. But, in my experience, when kids who are involved in generally niche competitive sports like running start to lose, they become snidey and sore losers because at the core of their soul they are absolute cnuts.

Running is niche? That's a pretty universal sport / activity for kids of all ages across the globe.

 

[Carolina Red]

So transgender girls would never get sports scholarships

Not by competing against, and taking opportunities away from, biological females.

 

[maniak]

Not by competing against, and taking opportunities away from, biological females.

So they would get no scholarships, thanks for making it clear.

 

[711]

I just love how in all these stories it's always absolute nobodies who make up ridiculous claims of being robbed of made up achievements while having been beaten by multiple cis woman in the process as well.
Without checking the story I'd be willing to bet big money that she never was and never will be the fastest in Connecticut even if you only take cis girls but the right wing press loves to jump on these future suburban mom stories that love the attention.

Needs tagline 'Shit at Gambling'.

 

[Carolina Red]

So they would get no scholarships, thanks for making it clear.

Wow, you’ve got that little faith in them competing in an open category? That’s harsh.

Although, “it’s just school sports, not the World Cup” so I guess you shouldn’t be too concerned.

 

[maniak]

Wow, you’ve got that little faith in them competing in an open category? That’s harsh.

Although, “it’s just school sports, not the World Cup” so I guess you shouldn’t be too concerned.

I don't know why you're so surprised another person would consider the well being of teenagers and young adults ahead of the professionalization of college sports, which is in itself highly exploitative of their athletes. If universities think the scholarship system will be unfair to cis-girls, just offer the runner up a scholarship, problem solved. When it comes to school sports, I want young folks safe and healthy, not create systems that ban people based on who they are.

So yeah, this is school sports, let kids play and compete. Give away more scholarships, or even better, a crazy idea like the one we have here in portugal, if you want to go to college, you get a full scholarship based on your grades, not how fast you run, how about that?

If you want to talk about the olympics, I'm open to consider it in a different way.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Running is niche? That's a pretty universal sport / activity for kids of all ages across the globe.

I was being partly facetious but to be fair running is probably quite niche around my area as only one of the high schools actually has a track and field site. The more popular sports for kids seem to be football, rugby, tennis and - based on the bottles I see them holding - underage drinking and shouting "the feck you looking at, you bald old cnut?"

 

[Carolina Red]

If universities think the scholarship system will be unfair to cis-girls, just offer the runner up a scholarship, problem solved.

Have you ever been involved in the collegiate athletics recruitment process?

I want young folks safe and healthy, not create systems that ban people based on who they are.

That sounds nice… but we’re talking about actual competitive athletics here.

if you want to go to college, you get a full scholarship based on your grades, not how fast you run, how about that?

We have academic scholarships here too.

Give away more scholarships

Schools can’t. Athletic scholarships are regulated and limited by the NCAA / NAIA.

 

[maniak]

Have you ever been involved in the collegiate athletics recruitment process?

No, and I don't care to learn as it has nothing to do with I'm defending here.

That sounds nice… but we’re talking about actual competitive athletics here.

I don't think school competitions trump the well being of an already marginalized group of kids.

We have academic scholarships here too.

We have academic scholarships for everyone. No number limit. You're a good student but don't have money? The state pays 100%. Maybe the energy spent on trying to exclude transgender girls from sports could be spent on pushing for something like that.

Schools can’t. Athletic scholarships are regulated and limited by the NCAA / NAIA.

Are you telling me rules can be changed to exclude transgender girls but not changed to allow for more scholarships? Priorities...

 

[Carolina Red]

No, and I don't care to learn as it has nothing to do with I'm defending here.

Then maybe don’t say what schools should do instead when your being aggressively ignorant about how it works.

I don't think school competitions trump the well being of an already marginalized group of kids.

The irony of how that statement works for the female athletes isn’t lost on me.

We have academic scholarships for everyone. No number limit. You're a good student but don't have money? The state pays 100%. Maybe the energy spent on trying to exclude transgender girls from sports could be spent on pushing for something like that.

While I would love to see that in place here, it is a very separate issue that would involve a complete overhaul of the entire US college & university system.

Are you telling me rules can be changed to exclude transgender girls but not changed to allow for more scholarships? Priorities...

I’m telling you about what the reality is, a reality you’ve already said you’re ignorant of.

And the current Dept of Ed policy proposal is to “allow schools to reject transgender athletes from competing on sports teams that align with their gender identity, when questions of physicality and fairness arise.”
https://www.nytimes.com/article/title-ix-transgender-athletes-school-sports.html

 

[maniak]

Then maybe don’t say what schools should do instead when your being aggressively ignorant about how it works.

The irony of how that statement works for the female athletes isn’t lost on me.

While I would love to see that in place here, it is a very separate issue that would involve a complete overhaul of the entire US college & university system.


I’m telling you about what the reality is, a reality you’ve already said you’re ignorant of.

And the current Dept of Ed policy proposal is to “allow schools to reject transgender athletes from competing on sports teams that align with their gender identity, when questions of physicality and fairness arise.”
https://www.nytimes.com/article/title-ix-transgender-athletes-school-sports.html

So in summary:

Suggestions that keep transgender kids included in school sports and improves the access to education for all = too many changes necessary, can't be done.

Banning transgender girls from competing in school sports and getting scholarships = sad, but there's no other way.

I know which side I'll be on every single time.

We'll never agree on this and I think you've exhausted your daily usage of the word ignorant, so have a nice day.

 

[giorno]

And in some, she didn’t. And neither did a lot of other biological females.

There’s the issue.

Clearly is to you, since you insist on using transphobic terminology

 

[Carolina Red]

So in summary:

Suggestions that keep transgender kids included in school sports and improves the access to education for all = too many changes necessary, can't be done.

Banning transgender girls from competing in school sports and getting scholarships = sad, but there's no other way.

I know which side I'll be on every single time.

We'll never agree on this and I think you've exhausted your daily usage of the word ignorant, so have a nice day.

Ta

Clearly is to you, since you insist on using transphobic terminology

Do go on