UK Policing

[ThierryFabregas]

I think people disregard what a hard and quite scary job being a police officer is. People officer gets called to a scene with a big tall threatening man who's been reported because he's threatening and seeming crazy. They have to deal with him, it's their job. He won't comply. They probably do not feel able to tackle him so they taser him as a result. They're not tasering him because he's black. They're tasering him because he's been reported as a threatening individual, he's acting crazy and he won't comply with requests. He then takes it upon himself to throw himself over a bridge, which twitter deems to be the police's fault and to be racist.

London has a large problem with knife and gun and drug crime primarily from a certain ethnicity where some individuals are under the age of 16. So you carry out stop and searches to try and catch drug, knife and gun carriers according to that demographic. You can call it racist but it's statistic based targeting measure aimed to police crime.

Although I would agree strip searches go beyond padding down for weapons. At that point it's the war on drugs. But again their job is to police drugs too. So perhaps the argument should be more against relaxing drugs laws rather than saying the police are at fault.

 

[Sweet Square]

Should be a national scandal. Institution needs destroying.

 

[SalfordRed18]

Just never call the police when someone is having a mental breakdown. The police simply don’t have the ability/brains to deal with such complex situation like a man holding a fire lighter.

Unfortunately, while the police aren’t experts at mental health we don’t have mental health experts qualified to go out into the streets to apprehend and restrain a potentially violent and aggressive individual. Whether or not they are mentally ill. And it’s also difficult to make a diagnosis on the hoof, so it would be unfair/impractical to get mental health professionals to assess everyone who is seen acting aggressively for no obvious reason (99 times out 100 they’re off their face on drink and drugs and not mentally ill at all). So it’s a catch 22.

Most psychotic patients who present with violent or threatening outbursts end up being assessed by the mental health services via the police.

My 2 cents here. I work in a pub in Chelsea, not 5 minutes from this bridge. There's a local whos known in the community and by the police who had a bad experience in a foreign country and came back severely mentally ill and addicted to all types of drugs. You'll see him at all hours of thebray and night walking up and down Chelsea with tinnies in his hand (and I mean all day and all night). He'll often have bad episodes and recently it's been getting worse. He'll walk around Chelsea intimidating members of the public, threatening set fire to properties and causing damage to people's cars. I've seen him boot off multiple wing mirrors and smash windows now.

The police have been called multiple times, they'll drive round and find him and pick him up. For whatever reason he's back out in a day or two. But the issue I see is, how come you have this guy who genuinely is causing distress to many in the public (and I will say, it's not entirely his fault, he use to be normal and something happened to him), and he can be caught by the police seemingly easily. However the guy in the video somehow ends up jumping off a bridge? Perhaps they're extremely unlucky with what happened but I find it odd considering these cases are in the exact same area and appear to be handled differently?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

My 2 cents here. I work in a pub in Chelsea, not 5 minutes from this bridge. There's a local whos known in the community and by the police who had a bad experience in a foreign country and came back severely mentally ill and addicted to all types of drugs. You'll see him at all hours of thebray and night walking up and down Chelsea with tinnies in his hand (and I mean all day and all night). He'll often have bad episodes and recently it's been getting worse. He'll walk around Chelsea intimidating members of the public, threatening set fire to properties and causing damage to people's cars. I've seen him boot off multiple wing mirrors and smash windows now.

The police have been called multiple times, they'll drive round and find him and pick him up. For whatever reason he's back out in a day or two. But the issue I see is, how come you have this guy who genuinely is causing distress to many in the public (and I will say, it's not entirely his fault, he use to be normal and something happened to him), and he can be caught by the police seemingly easily. However the guy in the video somehow ends up jumping off a bridge? Perhaps they're extremely unlucky with what happened but I find it odd considering these cases are in the exact same area and appear to be handled differently?

We’d obviously need to know a lot more details to have any clue how to answer that question. I was just explaining that someone who is mentally ill and deemed dangerous to themself or others unfortunately can’t expect special treatment from the police. They’re always going to be apprehended and locked up first (using whatever means necessary) then reviewed by mental health services after.

 

[Sweet Square]

My 2 cents here. I work in a pub in Chelsea, not 5 minutes from this bridge. There's a local whos known in the community and by the police who had a bad experience in a foreign country and came back severely mentally ill and addicted to all types of drugs. You'll see him at all hours of thebray and night walking up and down Chelsea with tinnies in his hand (and I mean all day and all night). He'll often have bad episodes and recently it's been getting worse. He'll walk around Chelsea intimidating members of the public, threatening set fire to properties and causing damage to people's cars. I've seen him boot off multiple wing mirrors and smash windows now.

The police have been called multiple times, they'll drive round and find him and pick him up. For whatever reason he's back out in a day or two. But the issue I see is, how come you have this guy who genuinely is causing distress to many in the public (and I will say, it's not entirely his fault, he use to be normal and something happened to him), and he can be caught by the police seemingly easily. However the guy in the video somehow ends up jumping off a bridge? Perhaps they're extremely unlucky with what happened but I find it odd considering these cases are in the exact same area and appear to be handled differently?

Is the person your talking about white ? Someone race has a big effect on how they are treated by police.

If I remember correct police in the video were were told the guy on the bridge was carrying a knife, which would have changed how they approached the situation. They didn’t seem to attempt to check at any point. as it turned out the man was carrying nothing more than a harmless fire lighter.

Plus when the guy tries to escape by jumping off the bridge, the police taser him again for some reason(Which resulted in the man dying). We are talking about trigger happy morons here, who are always in a state of being scared shitless.

 

[Drainy]

Is the person your talking about white ? Someone race has a big effect on how they are treated by police.

If I remember correct police in the video were were told the guy on the bridge was carrying a knife, which would have changed how they approached the situation. They didn’t seem to attempt to check at any point. as it turned out the man was carrying nothing more than a harmless fire lighter.

Plus when the guy tries to escape by jumping off the bridge, the police taser him again for some reason(Which resulted in the man dying). We are talking about trigger happy morons here, who are always in a state of being scared shitless.

The police will have their share of bigots, but also unconscious bias and stereotyping in the hands of someone with authority is dangerous.

 

[SilentWitness]

I think people disregard what a hard and quite scary job being a police officer is. People officer gets called to a scene with a big tall threatening man who's been reported because he's threatening and seeming crazy. They have to deal with him, it's their job. He won't comply. They probably do not feel able to tackle him so they taser him as a result. They're not tasering him because he's black. They're tasering him because he's been reported as a threatening individual, he's acting crazy and he won't comply with requests. He then takes it upon himself to throw himself over a bridge, which twitter deems to be the police's fault and to be racist.

London has a large problem with knife and gun and drug crime primarily from a certain ethnicity where some individuals are under the age of 16. So you carry out stop and searches to try and catch drug, knife and gun carriers according to that demographic. You can call it racist but it's statistic based targeting measure aimed to police crime.

Although I would agree strip searches go beyond padding down for weapons. At that point it's the war on drugs. But again their job is to police drugs too. So perhaps the argument should be more against relaxing drugs laws rather than saying the police are at fault.

No, but unconscious bias is a thing and is very apparent when it comes to the police in this country and others. Plus they have to deal with him but they dealt with him terribly. As has been said, the man did not have a knife but seemingly these police were poorly trained and did not assess and understand that situation before going in full guns blazing. The temperament of the police in this country is concerning and disturbing.

 

[Sara125]

I think people disregard what a hard and quite scary job being a police officer is. People officer gets called to a scene with a big tall threatening man who's been reported because he's threatening and seeming crazy. They have to deal with him, it's their job. He won't comply. They probably do not feel able to tackle him so they taser him as a result. They're not tasering him because he's black. They're tasering him because he's been reported as a threatening individual, he's acting crazy and he won't comply with requests. He then takes it upon himself to throw himself over a bridge, which twitter deems to be the police's fault and to be racist.

London has a large problem with knife and gun and drug crime primarily from a certain ethnicity where some individuals are under the age of 16. So you carry out stop and searches to try and catch drug, knife and gun carriers according to that demographic. You can call it racist but it's statistic based targeting measure aimed to police crime.

Although I would agree strip searches go beyond padding down for weapons. At that point it's the war on drugs. But again their job is to police drugs too. So perhaps the argument should be more against relaxing drugs laws rather than saying the police are at fault.

Boo hoo. So frightened and faced with a difficult job that they bully and bruise the limbs of 13 year old unarmed black boys with their excessive force.

Firstly, and I don’t know how many times this needs to be said, if you are only (or predominantly, rather) going to stop and search one ethnicity then of course you are going to only find weapons on that one ethnicity. Never mind the fact that the police stopping and searching practically any young black boy they see, whether he’s waiting for a bus or just chilling with his mates after school, isn’t effective in deterring knife crime in the slightest.

The incident on chelsea(?) bridge was clearly a mental health episode. He was falsely reported to be waving a screwdriver at people. It even turned out that it was just a lighter. Btw the police are notorious in failing black men going through a mental crisis.

Lastly, and correct me if I’m wrong, are you seriously justifying the unlawful strip search of children?!? Some as young as 10 and most situations without an appropriate adult present?

 

[ThierryFabregas]

No, but unconscious bias is a thing and is very apparent when it comes to the police in this country and others. Plus they have to deal with him but they dealt with him terribly. As has been said, the man did not have a knife but seemingly these police were poorly trained and did not assess and understand that situation before going in full guns blazing. The temperament of the police in this country is concerning and disturbing.

Agreed, although if he was white and behaving in the same way they potentially act in the exact same way. The police have no way have knowing whether he has a knife or not. All they know is it's been reported he's been threatening people with a screwdriver. So from their point of view they could be possibly be attacked with a screwdriver or another weapon. They can't risk him suddenly pulling a weapon on them. I suppose the question is if they asked him to cooperate first. If they didn't it was obviously excessive escalation. If they did and he wasn't they had to get him under control 1 way or another. Tasering him is allot safer way of doing that than to tackle him and risk being stabbed.

 

[ThierryFabregas]

Boo hoo. So frightened and faced with a difficult job that they bully and bruise the limbs of 13 year old unarmed black boys with their excessive force.

Firstly, and I don’t know how many times this needs to be said, if you are only (or predominantly, rather) going to stop and search one ethnicity then of course you are going to only find weapons on that one ethnicity. Never mind the fact that the police stopping and searching practically any young black boy they see, whether he’s waiting for a bus or just chilling with his mates after school, isn’t effective in deterring knife crime in the slightest.

The incident on chelsea(?) bridge was clearly a mental health episode. He was falsely reported to be waving a screwdriver at people. It even turned out that it was just a lighter. Btw the police are notorious in failing black men going through a mental crisis.

Lastly, and correct me if I’m wrong, are you seriously justifying the unlawful strip search of children?!? Some as young as 10 and most situations without an appropriate adult present?

Young black males are the victims and perpetrators of knife crime at by far the highest rate in London. So regardless of stop and search findings we know which demographic is most involved in knife crime. That aside other races also get stop and searched

How do you know stop and search isn't a deterant? Let's say for instance 20,000 boys and men sometimes carry knives in London. Let's say you catch 10,000 over a period of time carrying knives. They will be in the custodial system and have a warning not to do it again or do prison time. Lets say 1000 don't do it again. Then you have 1000 reformed knife users, 100 of which may have stabbed someone.

That aside even if every person with a tendency to carry knives doesn't reform. They are not going to carry knives as frequently because of the risk of a stop and search. Therefore they won't have access to stab people at all times. If you did away with stop and search such people would carry knives at all times meaning they would be able to stab people at any time.

As for the case of young boys being stop and searched. We know gang members get young boys to carry weapons and drugs for them. It's a reality and needs to be policed. If a 13yo boy is stop and searched and gives evidence against an older gang member who's asked him to carry for him he could potentially get away from a very dangerous path of life while convicting a violent criminal.

As for protocols being broken, such as excessive force and strip searching children, that's obviously going over the line and should be investigated by an external body. Although excessive force is hard to gauge, because if someone is resisting force needs to increase.

 

[Sara125]

Young black males are the victims and perpetrators of knife crime at by far the highest rate in London. So regardless of stop and search findings we know which demographic is most involved in knife crime. That aside other races also get stop and searched

How do you know stop and search isn't a deterant? Let's say for instance 20,000 boys and men sometimes carry knives in London. Let's say you catch 10,000 over a period of time carrying knives. They will be in the custodial system and have a warning not to do it again or do prison time. Lets say 1000 don't do it again. Then you have 1000 reformed knife users, 100 of which may have stabbed someone.

That aside even if every person with a tendency to carry knives doesn't reform. They are not going to carry knives as frequently because of the risk of a stop and search. Therefore they won't have access to stab people at all times. If you did away with stop and search such people would carry knives at all times meaning they would be able to stab people at any time.

As for the case of young boys being stop and searched. We know gang members get young boys to carry weapons and drugs for them. It's a reality and needs to be policed. If a 13yo boy is stop and searched and gives evidence against an older gang member who's asked him to carry for him he could potentially get away from a very dangerous path of life while convicting a violent criminal.

As for protocols being broken, such as excessive force and strip searching children, that's obviously going over the line and should be investigated by an external body. Although excessive force is hard to gauge, because if someone is resisting force needs to increase.

There are literally studies that conclude how ineffective stop and search is. Also, police (and society at large) go about tackling knife crime completely the wrong way but that’s another story for another day.

I know you have pointed out that black boys make up a large number of both victims and perpetrators (amongst other things like drug running)…but, for an officer, what good does it to stop and search ANY young black boy you see? A lot of the time the police find sweet feck all on them anyway.

To your last point, have you actually seen some of the stop and search videos that circulate social media? It’s extremely easy to gauge what excessive force is. And these are young boys that haven’t done anything wrong so their first instinct naturally is to resist arrest, especially when the officer is using excessive force BEFORE the victim is even ‘resisting’.

Btw I’m curious to know your thoughts when Sarah Everard (RIP) died and there were calls for more people, particularly women, to resist arrest…

 

[Pexbo]

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They are a complete disgrace showing total contempt for public and female safety after what happened with Couzens.

 

[yumtum]

@Pexbo - only a final warning, suggesting he's had other warnings?

Sadly the police have suffer so many cutbacks they're attracting the dregs of society, I've had a friend go through police training and another through a fire department training, and the difference between the two is truly baffling.

The officer in the report above should have received jail time, abuse of power, GDPR etc, yet he gets to keep his job and still exert power over his victim.

There needs to be a way to keep track and record everything an officer does, zero tolerance to any abuse of power etc, but that won't happen because there isn't enough people applying to become officers.

 

[Pexbo]

@Pexbo - only a final warning, suggesting he's had other warnings?

Sadly the police have suffer so many cutbacks they're attracting the dregs of society, I've had a friend go through police training and another through a fire department training, and the difference between the two is truly baffling.

The officer in the report above should have received jail time, abuse of power, GDPR etc, yet he gets to keep his job and still exert power over his victim.

There needs to be a way to keep track and record everything an officer does, zero tolerance to any abuse of power etc, but that won't happen because there isn't enough people applying to become officers.

I don’t think it’s even an issue of not having enough officers to be letting any go for things like this. If officers doing things like this make up a significant enough statistic to impact force numbers were they to be strict enough to let them go then its truly a broken force and certainly not “a few bad apples”.

It’s more likely that it’s an old boys network where seniors refrain from meaningful disciplinary action where possible because they benefited from the same courtesy on the way up and thats how it works around here and you don’t need to concern yourself with that, laddy - none of your business.

Not something that sits well within the modern world with social media.

 

[yumtum]

I don’t think it’s even an issue of not having enough officers to be letting any go for things like this. If officers doing things like this make up a significant enough statistic to impact force numbers were they to be strict enough to let them go then its truly a broken force and certainly not “a few bad apples”.

It’s more likely that it’s an old boys network where seniors refrain from meaningful disciplinary action where possible because they benefited from the same courtesy on the way up and thats how it works around here and you don’t need to concern yourself with that, laddy - none of your business.

Not something that sits well within the modern world with social media.

I just think the police force are stretched too thin to be letting anyone go, and having seen/dealt with officers a fair amount (I'm not a criminal) the majority of the of those interactions have reflected poorly on their ability.

I agree on the upper echelons being an old boys club, and they probably don't see what the officer did in the article as that bad, which says all you need to know about the force, which means it's worse than you think...sadly.

 

[Duafc]

Very very surprised that isn't dismissal at a minimum regardless of any previous disciplinary record. Also depending on his reason for obtaining her number from police systems in the first place it could also have constituted criminal offences.

 

[Ludens the Red]

I don’t think it’s even an issue of not having enough officers to be letting any go for things like this. If officers doing things like this make up a significant enough statistic to impact force numbers were they to be strict enough to let them go then its truly a broken force and certainly not “a few bad apples”.

It’s more likely that it’s an old boys network where seniors refrain from meaningful disciplinary action where possible because they benefited from the same courtesy on the way up and thats how it works around here and you don’t need to concern yourself with that, laddy - none of your business.

Not something that sits well within the modern world with social media.

Mentioned this before on here but these misconduct hearings don’t work as people think they do. Very common misconception that it’s purely the police sitting round a table and deciding these outcomes. Much like the court system those making the final decision are made up of a group of people from different backgrounds. Usually independent solicitors.
Generally speaking the panel who decide are not an ‘old boys club’ .

See the link below for more details. It’s fairly transparent. Look up the IOPC too if you’re interested in how it all works.

https://www.met.police.uk/advice/ad...isconduct-hearings/about-misconduct-hearings/

As for the case you posted about , whilst misusing police systems is misconduct I don’t believe it would be seen as gross misconduct in this situation and so would not lead to a direct sacking.
By reading the actual article, it doesnt appear he obtained her phone number by deceitful means or searching the system. Melissa Sigodo who tweeted it I can only assume misread the article.
He attended an incident she was present and would have taken her number via those means. It doesn’t say she was a victim or suspect either so I’d imagine she was neither. I am fairly certain those reasons are why he didn’t get a harsher punishment.
I mean don’t get me wrong his messages are creepy as feck but it wasn’t done to commission an offence or something along those lines. Essentially he could have passed this off as “trying his luck”. And I’m sure this goes on all the time with differing results. One quite high profile one was the below except this was actually a victim.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...t-to-marry-police-counsellor-1137659.html?amp

Personally I think there needs to be a hard rule in place that states if you meet someone on duty in the commission of an incident you are strictly off limits at starting or seeking any form of relationship with them and doing so is automatically gross misconduct. That would draw a line under it all. Because I can guarantee you other officers have done this and successfully courted said male or female and we’re all non the wiser. It would also make it much easier to dismiss the likes of the PC mentioned in that article if you just had one rule for all.

 

[SilentWitness]

It should fall under the same line as teacher - student relationships. You're in a position of power and the person on the other end is vulnerable. Should be an easy one strike rule.

 

[FireballXL5]

W the actual f ?

Cleveland PC who urinated in shop guilty of gross misconduct

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-62658827

 

[11101]

@Pexbo - only a final warning, suggesting he's had other warnings?

Sadly the police have suffer so many cutbacks they're attracting the dregs of society, I've had a friend go through police training and another through a fire department training, and the difference between the two is truly baffling.

The officer in the report above should have received jail time, abuse of power, GDPR etc, yet he gets to keep his job and still exert power over his victim.

There needs to be a way to keep track and record everything an officer does, zero tolerance to any abuse of power etc, but that won't happen because there isn't enough people applying to become officers.

I don't think the cutbacks have much to do with it. I've got a number of family members who are all ex police and will tell you stories like any in this thread but from back in the 60s and 70s. Beatings, racism, intimidation and plenty more that they laugh and joke about. It just wasn't on Twitter for all to see back then. Policing naturally attracts arseholes and always has done. The only one who doesn't speak like them is the one who happened to rise high up through the ranks.

 

[yumtum]

I don't think the cutbacks have much to do with it. I've got a number of family members who are all ex police and will tell you stories like any in this thread but from back in the 60s and 70s. Beatings, racism, intimidation and plenty more that they laugh and joke about. It just wasn't on Twitter for all to see back then. Policing naturally attracts arseholes and always has done. The only one who doesn't speak like them is the one who happened to rise high up through the ranks.

Comforting...

Definitely agree on the attracting arseholes part.

 

[FireballXL5]

UK police asking officers to disclose any personal ties with news reporters

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...isclose-any-personal-ties-with-news-reporters

 

[T00lsh3d]

I don't think the cutbacks have much to do with it. I've got a number of family members who are all ex police and will tell you stories like any in this thread but from back in the 60s and 70s. Beatings, racism, intimidation and plenty more that they laugh and joke about. It just wasn't on Twitter for all to see back then. Policing naturally attracts arseholes and always has done. The only one who doesn't speak like them is the one who happened to rise high up through the ranks.

Ever read ‘Filth’ by Irvine Welsh? Fiction, obviously, but it’s a lot like that. Attitude is, ‘we’re the biggest gang and we’ve got the law on our side’. Set in the 80s/90s I think

 

[11101]

Ever read ‘Filth’ by Irvine Welsh? Fiction, obviously, but it’s a lot like that. Attitude is, ‘we’re the biggest gang and we’ve got the law on our side’. Set in the 80s/90s I think

Not read it but I have heard of it.

I don't know if it attracts those types, or if its the job that creates them, but virtually all the regular/beat police I know have a superiority complex going on.

 

[T00lsh3d]

Not read it but I have heard of it.

I don't know if it attracts those types, or if its the job that creates them, but virtually all the regular/beat police I know have a superiority complex going on.

I don’t know any but I suspect that both are at play. And if I’m being totally honest with myself, if I had to deal with petty criminals day in day out….I’d probably develop a bit of an us-against-the-world mindstate. It’d be a challenge not to

 

[P-Ro]

The unstoppable force meets the immovable object.

Traffic warden Vs Police officer:

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[VorZakone]

The unstoppable force meets the immovable object.

Traffic warden Vs Police officer:

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Did he say "you gave me fines before"?

 

[Sara125]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-62691598.amp

Chris Kaba, who was shot dead recently, was found to be unarmed

 

[Sara125]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-62691598.amp

Chris Kaba, who was shot dead recently, was found to be unarmed

The officer who shot him dead is still yet to be suspended.

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

Ever read ‘Filth’ by Irvine Welsh? Fiction, obviously, but it’s a lot like that. Attitude is, ‘we’re the biggest gang and we’ve got the law on our side’. Set in the 80s/90s I think

Brilliant book, like all Irvine Welsh books

The unstoppable force meets the immovable object.

Traffic warden Vs Police officer:

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Single best thing Ive seen all month

 

[lefty_jakobz]

The officer who shot him dead is still yet to be suspended.

Do you hold out any hope for justice?

 

[Sara125]

Do you hold out any hope for justice?

The IOPC said they are investigating it as a homicide but I’m not taking that as anything concrete

 

[T00lsh3d]

Brilliant book, like all Irvine Welsh books

It’s probably my favourite of his. Such a wonderful bastard of a character. Due a reread

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

It’s probably my favourite of his. Such a wonderful bastard of a character. Due a reread

Ive been looking for it today and cant find it, trying to remember which thieving shit I lent it to and never got it back

 

[TheReligion]

The IOPC said they are investigating it as a homicide but I’m not taking that as anything concrete

It will be investigated as a homicide because it is one. The question will be was it lawful. I believe the officer was suspended.

 

[T00lsh3d]

Ive been looking for it today and cant find it, trying to remember which thieving shit I lent it to and never got it back

Sounds about right

I’ve found mine, along with Porno & Glue….defo gonna reread them, take me away from the misery of working life and back to a world of drink and drugs

 

[Sara125]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...gn=Main&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1663079919

How many individual Bad Apples is this now

Hopefully people will start to wake up and realise that something is seriously wrong with that institution.

 

[Sara125]

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMFJ2xFco/

Another stop and search of a young black boy in school uniform who conveniently ‘matches the description’ of someone who just committed a violent robbery in the area. Lo and behold, nothing is found on him.

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

I’m sure there are still a few good apples in there.

 

[calodo2003]

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