Vinicius Junior

The more I think about this, the more I read about this, the more my blood boils honestly. It's unfairness and helplessness of it all. It's heartening to see the support he has received from others outside of Spanish football but he gets racially abused, and then put in a chokehold but he's the one who gets sent off. He then takes to social media to call out the racists and the league president tells him the onus is on him to do something about it and then we have the people who run the club with the racist fans deny anything bad even happened and all of this is just this one incident from this weekend. What the Atleti fans did feels like a lifetime ago but it was just earlier this season when they were hanging a Vini effigy off the bridge and chanting monkey at him. It was brushed under the carpet back then too and he was predictably told to stop being so provocative.

Vini has more strength and conviction than I could ever hope to have. I feel proud of him for standing against the behemoth that is La Liga and all the clubs within it.
 
So I live in Spain have done for well over a decade. Prior to that I lived over a decade in the UK, prior to that 2 years in Texas, USA and prior to that in South Africa. Perhaps this gives me a unique perspective I don't know, I am not here to lecture anyone.

Out of he countries the one with the biggest race problem is the USA by far. SA has a history of racism, but it is out in the open and pointed out and discussed and confronted. In the USA people live segregated and don't mix and racism is brushed under the carpet. Trevor Noah sums this up well here:



I was most impressed by the UK which has a long multicultural history and whilst there are incidents of racism, people are tolerant, welcoming and well integrated.

Spain is what I would call multi-culturally naive. They don't have the history of immigration that the UK does so these issues haven't been confronted. What I will say is to call Spain a racist country is generalisation to the extreme. On the contrary it is one of the most welcoming countries to immigrants and people from different demographics.

The football supporting thugs of certain teams (especially Atletico and Valencia) are not representative of the country as a whole, just like the football thugs from the UK who cause chaos when they come over here are not representative of the UK. What I would say is certain regions of Spain (like Madrid and Valencia) have a greater population extreme right supporters (Vox party etc.). You would not see this behaviour in the more left leaning areas. This is the same as any country that has right and a left I guess.

That said La Liga has a massive problem here that needs to be confronted head on and they are not taking the right steps. It is damaging the La Liga brand significantly and I wouldn't be surprised if sponsors are considering their position. They need to be taking this way more seriously than they are because the current situation at certain stadiums is unacceptable.
 
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RedRoach said:
So I live in Spain have done for well over a decade. Prior to that I lived over a decade in the UK, prior to that 2 years in Texas, USA and prior to that in South Africa. Perhaps this gives me a unique perspective I don't know, I am not here to lecture anyone.

Out of he countries the one with the biggest race problem is the USA by far. SA has a history of racism, but it is out on the open and pointed out and discussed and confronted. In the USA people live segregated and don't mix and racism is brushed under the carpet. Trevor Noah sums this up well here:



I was most impressed by the UK which has a long multicultural history and whilst there are incidents of racism, people are tolerant, welcoming and well integrated.

Spain is what I would call multi-culturally naive. They don't have the history of immigration that the UK does so these issues haven't been confronted. What I will say is to call Spain a racist country is generalisation to the extreme. On the contrary it is one of the most welcoming countries to immigrants and people from different demographics.

The football supporting thugs of certain teams (especially Atletico and Valencia) are not representative of the country as a whole, just like the football thugs from the UK who cause chaos when they come over here are not representative of the UK. What I would say is certain regions of Spain (like Madrid and Valencia) have a greater population extreme right supporters (Vox party etc.). You would not see this behaviour in the more left leaning areas. This is the same as any country that has right and a left I guess.

That said La Liga has a massive problem here that needs to be confronted head on and they are not taking the right steps. It is damaging the La Liga brand significantly and I wouldn't be surprised if sponsors are considering their position. They need to be taking this way more seriously than they are because the current situation at certain stadiums is unacceptable.
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Isnt Barcelona a left leaning area?
 
Real Name said:
Isnt Barcelona a left leaning area?
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It is complicated because all the regions that have an independence movement are lumped in with the left wing even if within the region itself there are both right and left leaning parties.
 
RedRoach said:
It is complicated because all the regions that have an independence movement are lumped in with the left wing even if within the region itself there are both right and left leaning parties.
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I thought Catalan nationalists were always left leaning. I might be wrong of course.
 
Real Name said:
I thought Catalan nationalists were always left leaning. I might be wrong of course.
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Not always, I don't live in Catalonia but in the Basque Country for example you have 2 Basque nationalist parties (PNV and Bildu). PNV are right wing / conservative in their policies, but at a national level they are lumped together with the left wing and have a coalition with the socialist left wing government (PSOE)
 


Madrid police arrest four in connection with Vinícius 'hanging' incident
Police say the four people in custody are "ultra" fans, associated with another Madrid football club.

Four people were arrested in Spain on Tuesday as part of the investigation into the hanging of a mannequin bearing the likeness of Real Madrid striker Vinícius Junior at the end of January, police said.

The arrests come two days after new racist insults were made against the Brazilian star during a Spanish football championship match, which sparked a wave of indignation in the country and abroad.

The four people, arrested in the Spanish capital, are charged with a "hate crime", a criminal category that includes racist offences in Spain, police said in a statement.

Three of them are "active members of an ultra group of supporters of a Madrid club," the police added without identifying the club.

The investigations, based in particular on testimonies, made it possible to establish that these four supporters, "identified during matches classified as high-risk" within the framework of "measures to prevent violence in sport", were the "presumed perpetrators" of the hanging of the mannequin, police said.
 
WeePat said:
The more I think about this, the more I read about this, the more my blood boils honestly. It's unfairness and helplessness of it all. It's heartening to see the support he has received from others outside of Spanish football but he gets racially abused, and then put in a chokehold but he's the one who gets sent off. He then takes to social media to call out the racists and the league president tells him the onus is on him to do something about it and then we have the people who run the club with the racist fans deny anything bad even happened and all of this is just this one incident from this weekend. What the Atleti fans did feels like a lifetime ago but it was just earlier this season when they were hanging a Vini effigy off the bridge and chanting monkey at him. It was brushed under the carpet back then too and he was predictably told to stop being so provocative.

Vini has more strength and conviction than I could ever hope to have. I feel proud of him for standing against the behemoth that is La Liga and all the clubs within it.
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This.

It's frankly triggering as feck reading about it for anyone who's ever experienced racism, and probably even if you haven't.

Their discourse on racism over there just seems to contain current positions and attitudes that you used to have to argue against years ago but don't have to bother any more.
 
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Swoobs said:
It is a deep rooted problem in society. It is not just Spain, look at Italy and Balo for example, Portugal also had a Porto (I think?) player abused not too long ago. However Tebas’s comments as a person with influence, just bad.

I hope he doesn’t leave though, by leaving it feels like the racists have won
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In Portugal it was an incident where Pepe claimed that an Argentinian player Colombatto said something racist. Nothing was proven yet. There has been incidents in Basketball and Futsal of racist abuse though.

Our FA and government also take too long to act. We are not in the Spanish level of abuse but it's a discussion that portuguese society needs to do and constantly delays and refuses to engage unfortunately.
 
RedRoach said:
So I live in Spain have done for well over a decade. Prior to that I lived over a decade in the UK, prior to that 2 years in Texas, USA and prior to that in South Africa. Perhaps this gives me a unique perspective I don't know, I am not here to lecture anyone.

Out of he countries the one with the biggest race problem is the USA by far. SA has a history of racism, but it is out on the open and pointed out and discussed and confronted. In the USA people live segregated and don't mix and racism is brushed under the carpet. Trevor Noah sums this up well here:



I was most impressed by the UK which has a long multicultural history and whilst there are incidents of racism, people are tolerant, welcoming and well integrated.

Spain is what I would call multi-culturally naive. They don't have the history of immigration that the UK does so these issues haven't been confronted. What I will say is to call Spain a racist country is generalisation to the extreme. On the contrary it is one of the most welcoming countries to immigrants and people from different demographics.

The football supporting thugs of certain teams (especially Atletico and Valencia) are not representative of the country as a whole, just like the football thugs from the UK who cause chaos when they come over here are not representative of the UK. What I would say is certain regions of Spain (like Madrid and Valencia) have a greater population extreme right supporters (Vox party etc.). You would not see this behaviour in the more left leaning areas. This is the same as any country that has right and a left I guess.

That said La Liga has a massive problem here that needs to be confronted head on and they are not taking the right steps. It is damaging the La Liga brand significantly and I wouldn't be surprised if sponsors are considering their position. They need to be taking this way more seriously than they are because the current situation at certain stadiums is unacceptable.
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Of course racism is a problem everywhere and for sure in US, but I just want to say the above is not my life and experience in the US. I appreciate all your points.
 
fantastic player who's taken a shit ton of abuse and rightly so should be looking to move on....

he'd be absolutely brilliant at United and the fans would love him and his style of play....he'd be a great fit on the wing or even play him at the 10

his pace and directness, outside of rashy, is what we've been missing this season from our forwards.
 
Cantonagotmehere said:
Of course racism is a problem everywhere and for sure in US, but I just want to say the above is not my life and experience in the US. I appreciate all your points.
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The US is a huge country, and really multiple countries under one umbrella. Like I said it was my experience of living in a particular region (Dallas, TX). Maybe other states are not like that, and again broad generalisation is never helpful so sorry if it came across that way.
 
RedRoach said:
Spain is what I would call multi-culturally naive. They don't have the history of immigration that the UK does so these issues haven't been confronted. What I will say is to call Spain a racist country is generalisation to the extreme. On the contrary it is one of the most welcoming countries to immigrants and people from different demographics.
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I appreciate your perspective, and it's definitely quite unique and comprehensive, but I think this is downplaying just how difficult it is for Latin American populations arriving in Spain. I don't think they'd consider Spaniards to be particularly "most welcoming", and it somehow ignores just how much casual racism/xenophobia they have to put up with.
 
Rooney in Paris said:
I appreciate your perspective, and it's definitely quite unique and comprehensive, but I think this is downplaying just how difficult it is for Latin American populations arriving in Spain. I don't think they'd consider Spaniards to be particularly "most welcoming", and it somehow ignores just how much casual racism/xenophobia they have to put up with.
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I would say they are the ones who have it easiest. Maybe not years ago, but nowadays there are many second generation, with very large communities.
In my neighbourhood, and I live in a small city, probably half of them are from LATAM.
Difficult perhaps for Africans, Romanians or Arabs.
 
DavidDeSchmikes said:
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A new low indeed. Yes Madrid is a very powerful club in Spain which possibly done some propaganda compaigns in the past and yes Vini can be provocative at times, but video evidence bared them all (the racist incident) to the public therefore there is little doubt that vini was radically abused by them.

Hiding behind “shady Real Madrid” or “irritating Vini” made it worse. This is a much larger issue than Real Madrid the club or vini the player, in fact this is a larger issue than football altogether. Football is just another avenue which this toxic and uncivilized culture rears its ugly head.

Click on to that twitter account and see the comment (only 1), disgusted
 
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carvajal said:
I would say they are the ones who have it easiest. Maybe not years ago, but nowadays there are many second generation, with very large communities.
In my neighbourhood, and I live in a small city, probably half of them are from LATAM.
Difficult perhaps for Africans, Romanians or Arabs.
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Not the feeling any of my Latin American friends have had here - when having to deal with Spanish employers, with the administration, with native Spaniards... I find that super strange that you have that perception, I've gotten this feedback without fail for 5 years now.
 
Rooney in Paris said:
I appreciate your perspective, and it's definitely quite unique and comprehensive, but I think this is downplaying just how difficult it is for Latin American populations arriving in Spain. I don't think they'd consider Spaniards to be particularly "most welcoming", and it somehow ignores just how much casual racism/xenophobia they have to put up with.
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I didn't know South Americans had it difficult in Spain until I watched a Spanish TV show a while ago where the main character is some old man with deep hatred for his Colombian neighbours. I was like that, is that actually an issue in Spain. I asked an old friend of mine who is Venezuelan but lives in Barcelona and he filled me in on his experiences as well as his family friends. They don't have it easy at all.
 
WeePat said:
I didn't know South Americans had it difficult in Spain until I watched a Spanish TV show a while ago where the main character is some old man with deep hatred for his Colombian neighbours. I was like that, is that actually an issue in Spain. I asked an old friend of mine who is Venezuelan but lives in Barcelona and he filled me in on his experiences as well as his family friends. They don't have it easy at all.
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I was also surprised but I've gotten that feedback so consistently I don't doubt it. There's a feeling of superiority from native Spaniards towards the "formerly colonised people", from what I understand.
 
Rooney in Paris said:
Not the feeling any of my Latin American friends have had here - when having to deal with Spanish employers, with the administration, with native Spaniards... I find that super strange that you have that perception, I've gotten this feedback without fail for 5 years now.
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Yes, indeed. The ones who I think have it hardest are perhaps the Dominicans, but I see Colombians, Venezuelans, Cubans, Argentinians, Uruguayans totally integrated and mixed with Spaniards.
I don't know about Ecuadorians or Peruvians as there aren't that many here.
 
Swoobs said:
Portugal also had a Porto (I think?) player abused not too long ago
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Porto's Marega a couple of seasons ago. Unsurprisingly the investigation was archived and nothing happened, no punishment for the club and no individual "fans" punished. Even the original 700 euro fine, which was ridiculous in itself, was later annulled as well.
 
maniak said:
Porto's Marega a couple of seasons ago. Unsurprisingly the investigation was archived and nothing happened, no punishment for the club and no individual "fans" punished. Even the original 700 euro fine, which was ridiculous in itself, was later annulled as well.
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Yes that is the case I was referring to.
The 700 euro fine itself is just sad…
 
WeePat said:
I didn't know South Americans had it difficult in Spain until I watched a Spanish TV show a while ago where the main character is some old man with deep hatred for his Colombian neighbours. I was like that, is that actually an issue in Spain. I asked an old friend of mine who is Venezuelan but lives in Barcelona and he filled me in on his experiences as well as his family friends. They don't have it easy at all.
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This is bollocks to me. What TV show is that?
I can only think of Antonio Recio or Mauricio Colmenero, both examples of abhorrent, easy to dislike characters that would fill the shows with their absurdity while being despided by the rest of the characters.

Never met anyone like that in my entire life.
 
IFC 1905 said:
He can go anywhere but not to United please.

and he Will have similar polemics in the UK, give it time. He has a provocative style, but instead Of showing himself on the pitch, he tends to victimize himself.
Its not a coincidence that it always happens to Vinicius.
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This is an utterly disgusting take.
 
RedRoach said:
The US is a huge country, and really multiple countries under one umbrella. Like I said it was my experience of living in a particular region (Dallas, TX). Maybe other states are not like that, and again broad generalisation is never helpful so sorry if it came across that way.
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No worries mate. Like you said, it is a problem everywhere of varying degrees.
 
Don’t understand why this seems to have become a transfer thread - I don’t think there is any indication that he wants to leave. I do think Spain and Italy have issues to address, and I say that as someone who has lived in Spain (Seville) and has an Italian girlfriend. People are friendly and warm, but I think casual racism is more of a thing — and in part I think it’s because both countries until recently have largely been untouched by high levels of immigration, and therefore, still seem susceptible to holding outdated and inaccurate views. Some of it is innocent naivety and some of it is rather more sinister.

More specifically, what goes on in football stadiums is particularly disgusting and upsetting, and the response from the authorities continues to underwhelm. I think that’s partially a result of the issue not having as much traction in Spanish/Italian society, as would like have in USA/Germany/UK etc.
 
GeneralKenobi said:
This is bollocks to me. What TV show is that?
I can only think of Antonio Recio or Mauricio Colmenero, both examples of abhorrent, easy to dislike characters that would fill the shows with their absurdity while being despided by the rest of the characters.

Never met anyone like that in my entire life.
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It was called Entrevias and the main character in there was an old man who used derogatory words about South Americans every time he spoke with his Colombian neighbours. He changed over time though and ended up trying to date the Colombian mum. Anyway it was just a little anecdote about how I learnt about something in Spain that prompted me to have a conversation with a friend of mine who provided me with more insight of what it’s like for South Americans living in Spain. Not sure there was any need to call it bollocks without knowing what I was referring to.
 
Rooney in Paris said:
I appreciate your perspective, and it's definitely quite unique and comprehensive, but I think this is downplaying just how difficult it is for Latin American populations arriving in Spain. I don't think they'd consider Spaniards to be particularly "most welcoming", and it somehow ignores just how much casual racism/xenophobia they have to put up with.
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The problem is who you're asking, if i'm asking about racism in England i'm probably going to take the opinion of those from Asian or Afro-Carribean communities more serious than those of White British/Europeans.
 
WeePat said:
It was called Entrevias and the main character in there was an old man who used derogatory words about South Americans every time he spoke with his Colombian neighbours. He changed over time though and ended up trying to date the Colombian mum. Anyway it was just a little anecdote about how I learnt about something in Spain that prompted me to have a conversation with a friend of mine who provided me with more insight of what it’s like for South Americans living in Spain. Not sure there was any need to call it bollocks without knowing what I was referring to.
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For what it's worth, I am Latin American but have lived in Spain for 10+ years and haven't really felt discriminated. It probably depends a lot on the context (where you work, live, etc.).
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
For what it's worth, I am Latin American but have lived in Spain for 10+ years and haven't really felt discriminated. It probably depends a lot on the context (where you work, live, etc.).
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Yeah for sure. You’re right, and I’m glad you haven’t been discriminated against. I’m not saying it’s the same for everyone. I wasn’t even saying much of anything except to confirm that what @Rooney in Paris was saying matches up with what my Venezuelan friend told me about his and his friends experiences.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
For what it's worth, I am Latin American but have lived in Spain for 10+ years and haven't really felt discriminated. It probably depends a lot on the context (where you work, live, etc.).
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Dont forget the most important...the colour of your skin. My brother lived in Spain almost 12 years, both Barcelona and Madrid and never had any issues as a foreigner with a Mexican accent. But then again he's white enough to pass as native Spanish
 
Real Name said:
I thought Catalan nationalists were always left leaning. I might be wrong of course.
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They are not. Carles Puidgemont, the now ex-president of Catalunya that pushed through the referendum, is a centre-right wing politician for example

The city of Barcelona tends to be very much left leaning, but Catalunya itself not so much
 
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