I think you are right in terms of the understanding. Many people will hear others saying don't say this or don't do that but they don't truly understand why it isn't okay to do it or say it and they'll continue to do so in environments they feel safe and comfortable to do so. Spain quite clearly has an issue in that people feel safe and comfortable to be racist and use racist language quite regularly and it's incredibly depressing that people aren't making more of an effort or stand to change that.
Vinicius Junior
- Thread starter jackofalltrades
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) are here to talk about United's dreadful home defeat at the hands of Big Ange's Tottenham Hotspur. Should this have been the end of Ten Hag? How long does he actually have left? And does Nik finally want ETH out?!
I think you are right in terms of the understanding. Many people will hear others saying don't say this or don't do that but they don't truly understand why it isn't okay to do it or say it and they'll continue to do so in environments they feel safe and comfortable to do so. Spain quite clearly has an issue in that people feel safe and comfortable to be racist and use racist language quite regularly and it's incredibly depressing that people aren't making more of an effort or stand to change that.
My favourite outcome of this, pre sending off is if all of the Real Madrid players had stood by Vini and walked off the pitch. Even better if the Valencia players had done so too. I have not heard racist comments for years at an English footy ground - maybe I sit in quieter areas, but I think folk are more likely to report it and the stewards or club take action. It appears that in cases like this one in Spain the main club action is apologising but not banning the perpetrators and any who follow them.
He's clearly excluding himself. He's as tone deaf as Xavi, and a lot of the Spanish population. Completely missing the point.
Congrats on those who have tried engaging him though.
Based on some of the quotes and arguments, there seems to be a tendency to draw an equivalence between racism and other types of verbal abuse. Racism has a difference force because it carries the weight of historical oppression and ongoing imbalances in power. It's also fundamentally dehumanising. It's different. That's why we treat it differently. It's weird to have to explain it. I thought this was already an established starting point for the discussion.
Ah, a little bit more from the other Chuckle brother. But I'd recommend you to take a page out of your own playbook.
Dont see what is wrong with what he said though, both are issues just that one is larger than the other so obviously one got a lot more attention and outrage than the other.
So instead of throwing shades at that user, address his point and what you so disagree with?
'I am not condoning Russia for invading Ukraine, BUT to be fair Ukraine has some nazis too.'
Well, having been an immigrant to a variety of countries, what I can say is it is not very different in each country. As an immigrant you always have to fight harder than the local population who undeniably get preferable treatment, and this is pretty much universal wherever you immigrate to. This is why the immigrant population are so important because they tend to fight harder and work harder than the locals because they have to.
The locals do tend to not necessarily accept immediately someone from outside the country and it takes work on the part of the immigrant to adapt (learn the language, learn cultural behavioural norms etc.). My son for example (who is English, born in the UK) and arrived at later age, most of his close friends are South American because the locals were less accepting and already have established friend groups.
It is often not until the second generation of immigrants when people truly integrate.
This issue is not necessarily always related to racism however, and is pretty universal if you are foreign. Xenophobia maybe.
The user isn't making an actual point. They are passive-aggressively complaining about the flack they got from making this post, where they claim Vinicius Jr. is "vile and disgusting" and "the lower classes" are a breeding ground for racism.
It's been done in several posts more eloquently than I could, it's about context and the time and place. Things don't happen in a vacuum. Words aren't just words, there is a context to everything. And the context of what happened on Sunday means that discussing anything else is totally irrelevent. Carlo Ancelotti's post-match interview was the best manifestation of this - nothing else matters.
Exactly.
I mean the Ukraine example can also be reframed as “I dont condone Russia invading Ukraine but Ukraine does need to tackle their corruption problems”. The focus should be on the invasion but it doesnt mean saying the latter deserves to be thrown shades at.
I agree, the focus should be on racism. Based on the recent post (didnt really see the previous one prior), he agreed that racism is the bigger issue and that xavi should have kept silent.
I guess his previous post sentenced him then
What's this condescension? Your opinions are superior, is that it? Once again you sweep in to defend something you like (this time Xavi, the other time La Liga) without demonstrating any concern for the context of racism. Yes, that Xavi quote looks worse in isolation from the rest of his quote, but you haven't even mentioned that, youvejust been here to say that Vinicius did deserve that red card. No context, no sympathy, just defending Xavi's words.
How tone-deaf can you be.
What bothers @Niemans and other culés is that Lewa's sanction (totally exaggerated) was not reviewed, even though the sporting and obviously social context is totally different.
I don't know if it was his intent but the more I read Xavi's quote the more tone deaf it gets. He's basically equating racial abuse with rudeness. Feck sake
Yep. The message that I picked up was "me, me, me, I've also been abused."
What a great piece of news.
The full quote does sound better in that he did comment on the racist chants being unacceptable etc however it would have been really easy for him to just not comment on the red card issue. That’s my only point of contention really. In light of what’s happened there’s no need to bring up the card being rescinded.
Agree with that
I thought Xavi was alright here:
(My) translation: (The journo starts asking a "question": "Madridismo and the society at large is going to praise you...", Xavi interrupts him) "It's not about "Madridismo", the shirt doesn't matter, Vinicius is a human being, he is not a Real Madrid player before he is a human being, we need to defend any professional footballer/human being above the team colours, this doesn't matter [what team the player plays for]".
(My) translation: (The journo starts asking a "question": "Madridismo and the society at large is going to praise you...", Xavi interrupts him) "It's not about "Madridismo", the shirt doesn't matter, Vinicius is a human being, he is not a Real Madrid player before he is a human being, we need to defend any professional footballer/human being above the team colours, this doesn't matter [what team the player plays for]".
If Valencia player doesn't get anything for headlock then i suppose its fair to cancel Vinicius red card, but why not just give Hugo Doro a red as well?
These people make no sense to me.
These people make no sense to me.
Now that's a good response from Xavi
Well ultimately that is the main thing. Football isnt bigger than just being human.
What is Real Madrid’s plan on this topic, I hope (maybe just me) that teams will walk out of the next few matches in protest. Hopefully the big 3 can do that to make a statement. Might affect the relegation battles though
That's very good from Xavi. I guess since he lives in Spain for probably until he dies, he probably feels a need to be diplomatic on his overall interview also. Hence, his red-card comment.
Without knowing the schedule, that could end in a team with racist chants actually profiting from it by being awarded points ath the green table
Yes but I suppose if teams kept doing it every time one of their players was subjected to racial abuse, then I’d hope it would eventually force the governing bodies to hand down harsher sanctions. Another thing they could do is make it known teams won’t forfeit the 3 points if they walk out protesting racist abuse. The game could be rescheduled behind closed doors.
The best statement will actually come from Valencia themselves walking off the pitch in protest of La Liga’s indifference. But lets not kid ourselves, they have a relegation battle to fight even if thry had the intention in the first place
That was my impression too. Sounded like he was diluting the issue by grouping any type of abuse from fans as similar to racist abuse. Perhaps he was trying to be relatable to other industries away from football but just seemed very clumsy.
I don't know if Xavi was thinking that all type of abuses are the same. Personally I very much doubt so. But let's not forget that some abuses can be especially hurtful and cruel and they don't belong specifically to any particular group.
Like for instance, "Mijatovic, your son is going to die".
https://www.marca.com/en/football/real-madrid/2017/06/03/5932b0a8268e3e332a8b45c3.html
Xavi may or may have not been clumsy expressing his view, but the debate is still very necessary.
I don’t think this is enough.
What kinda mickey mouse nonsense is this?
I can't post links, so I'm quoting Tebas nonpology from the guardian:
“I think that the message, and the intention I had, was not understood by a significant number [of people], especially in Brazil,” he told ESPN Brazil. “I did not want to attack Vinícius, but if most people understood it that way, I need to apologise. It was not my intention, I expressed myself badly, at a bad time."
I hate it when people do that. Shut the feck up, if you don't have the balls to really apologize or - more likely - if you still think you're right with your shitty opinion and folding due to public pressure. This shit makes my blood boil.
“I think that the message, and the intention I had, was not understood by a significant number [of people], especially in Brazil,” he told ESPN Brazil. “I did not want to attack Vinícius, but if most people understood it that way, I need to apologise. It was not my intention, I expressed myself badly, at a bad time."
I hate it when people do that. Shut the feck up, if you don't have the balls to really apologize or - more likely - if you still think you're right with your shitty opinion and folding due to public pressure. This shit makes my blood boil.
We got a harsher financial penalty for failure to control in our game against you at Stamford this season than that
Fun fact! This is getting praise and seen as a good, proportional response in Spain!
Hell it's getting praise in Italy too! With the usual "oh look how good they are at dealing with this we would never" stuff that makes your blood boil
One section of the stadium. 5 fecking games. Less than 40k fine to the club. Feck sake
Sevilla fans calling for a boycott of their match against Real Madrid because Vinicius' red card was rescinded. Also, because people may fall into Vinicius' "trap" resulting in them being scapegoated and sanctioned for life.
Apparently, Vinicius is using Jedi mind tricks to make people racist. I knew it.
Spain is fecked.
Apparently, Vinicius is using Jedi mind tricks to make people racist. I knew it.
Spain is fecked.
Please José. Do your thing on Wednesday.
It's actually a shame (not really) those Barca lads were banned as it would have been interesting to see them try to justify this
Barca paid the refs for decades and nothing happened.
Vinicius gets racially harrassed and some Sevilla fans want to boycott a game to not fall in his trap.
Feck me.
Vinicius gets racially harrassed and some Sevilla fans want to boycott a game to not fall in his trap.
Feck me.
It's mad, isn't it? But that's the state of the country at this point